York - Leeds Electrification

[HaxbyFur]

I'm sure I read somewhere a while back that this was due for electrification. I wouldn't say it's in DESPERATE need for it but it would certainly help. From Colton junction, right through to Church Fenton, Micklefield, Cross Gates and East of Leeds the line isn't electrified. At the moment it's running a fair few Voyagers, Railbuses and the new Transpennine Express trains to Scarborough and Newcastle, (please forgive me, just coming back into the railway-ing hobby now). With electrification it would open the way for routes directly from Leeds to Edinburgh, or even perhaps routes from London via Leeds to Edinburgh using the Wakefield line from Doncaster. The speeds are between 70-90 with a 100 stretch from Colton Junction to York, (and even then there are points after Ulleskelf to transfer onto the ECML so you could get 125 for the 5 miles or so leading up to York).

Thoughts?

 

[gordonthemoron]

only if combined with Manchester-Leeds

 

[HaxbyFur]

only if combined with Manchester-Leeds

True, but from experience the Picadilly route to Manchester took nearly an hour from Leeds and the Victoria route requires a change of direction at Bradford Interchange so it would be easier and quicker to go Manchester > Glasgow > Edinburgh than through Leeds, unless they could relay parts of the track OR I'm wrong :P

 

[gordonthemoron]

i was referring to transpenine to Newcastle rather than anything to scotland

 

[philjo]

I understand that West Yorkshire PTE would like the Leeds-Selby line to be electrified. This would enable use of electric trains on the heavily used commuter services from Selby into Leeds instead of the current pacer units.
It also passes Hambleton junction so provides the additional electrified route to the ECML as an alternative to going via Wakefield.

The Micklefield-Colton Junction section would also need wiring to reach York, but this would allow ECML diversionary route and easier access to Neville Hill depot form the North (currently electric trains have to run via Doncaster to get there from York).

It would also allow some very early morning/late night ECML services to run via Leeds to Newcastle etc where there may not be the demand to run 2 separate trains from KX to Leeds & Newcastle.

There are also the proposals for the east Leeds Parkway station on that line - trains to London via that route would need the line to be electrified.
I think there is an interim proposal to just wire to the parkway station from Neville Hill to allow local electric trains coming out of Leeds to terminate there & reverse to provide some form of cross-city service.

 

[HaxbyFur]

I understand that West Yorkshire PTE would like the Leeds-Selby line to be electrified. This would enable use of electric trains on the heavily used commuter services from Selby into Leeds instead of the current pacer units.
It also passes Hambleton junction so provides the additional electrified route to the ECML as an alternative to going via Wakefield.

The Micklefield-Colton Junction section would also need wiring to reach York, but this would allow ECML diversionary route and easier access to Neville Hill depot form the North (currently electric trains have to run via Doncaster to get there from York).

It would also allow some very early morning/late night ECML services to run via Leeds to Newcastle etc where there may not be the demand to run 2 separate trains from KX to Leeds & Newcastle.

There are also the proposals for the east Leeds Parkway station on that line - trains to London via that route would need the line to be electrified.
I think there is an interim proposal to just wire to the parkway station from Neville Hill to allow local electric trains coming out of Leeds to terminate there & reverse to provide some form of cross-city service.

Not heard of Leeds Parkway before but after "wikipeding" it it looks interesting. The wiki page says that the plan is to use it as a Park and Ride style station, with Leeds users using the station for outbound services opposed to visitors to the station using it for Leeds. It sounds like a good idea on the face of things, and would probably indirectly effect congestion in areas such as York, Hull and Doncaster with people using the station's park and ride style facilities opposed to driving to the locations.

 

[Old Timer]

I know back in GNER days they were investigating the costs of electrifying Docaster to Leeds via Selby, and had GNER been allowed to stay in business then this would have been partly funded by them.

There were also lots of discussions about GNER leading the way with track renewals / upgrades along the GN main line, which would have been interesting as it would have taken out a large part of the non-productive NR interface.

 

[Aictos]

What's the chances of the line from Leeds to York being electrified?

As to 90s vs 91s, if 90s were available then could they be used on the Skipton services as well as the York/Leeds services instead of using a HST on the Skipton?
I know 91s can't travel on that line as they suck the life out of the OHL.

Still, this electrification should get the go ahead,

 

[Crossforth]

The line is meant to be electrified by 2014
Which means sometime in 2100

It will spoil all my shots in Cross Gates

 

[HaxbyFur]

The line is meant to be electrified by 2014
Which means sometime in 2100

It will spoil all my shots in Cross Gates

Get yourself down to Colton Junction :P Good shots to be had there

 

[Crossforth]

I just mean more that you won't be able to stand on the bridge and get a good shot when a steamer comes through as there will be the wires in the way.

Still, it will be interesting to get a new kind of picture and it should bring more stuff into Cross Gates In theory :???:

 

[StewieG]

I just mean more that you won't be able to stand on the bridge and get a good shot when a steamer comes through as there will be the wires in the way.

Still, it will be interesting to get a new kind of picture and it should bring more stuff into Cross Gates In theory :???:

Doubt it!

XC will still have to use their voyagers... And NXEC (if they continue) will still be using their 91's (if starting to terminate at said Parkway) 185's & 170's for fTPE, 158's for Northern (From Blackpool North)

So, I just think that a parkway station would be a good idea... Not the wiring up =/

 

[tbtc]

I know back in GNER days they were investigating the costs of electrifying Docaster to Leeds via Selby, and had GNER been allowed to stay in business then this would have been partly funded by them

GNER were good at talking up proposals, but never got round to funding them (Doncaster Parkway etc)

I agree with Gordon here - there's no point in wiring up this section alone, as it wouldn't "save" any DMUs - only worth doing if you either wire up other routes (Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds or similar), or "split" existing services (e.g. to get a stand alone York - Leeds stopping service)

 

[HaxbyFur]

Think its worthing mentioning that there could be new electric routes introduced from Leeds, main one in mind being Leeds - Edinburgh.

 

[Old Timer]

GNER were good at talking up proposals, but never got round to funding them (Doncaster Parkway etc)

But do you know how much of that was brought about by NR's malevolent influence ?

 

[O L Leigh]

But do you know how much of that was brought about by NR's malevolent influence ?

Quite. I'm of the opinion that whoever holds the East Coast franchise will find themselves subject to the DfT's meddling.

I am given to understand that the original electrification proposal came from GNER at around the time that they were bidding for the franchise the second time. The idea was that it would allow them to run more Leeds services by operating a circular service and reducing congestion at Leeds station and on the Leeds "branch". However, the DfT denied them the paths needed to operate this service, awarding them instead to open-access operators Hull Trains and Grand Central.

O L Leigh

 

[MCR247]

Think its worthing mentioning that there could be new electric routes introduced from Leeds, main one in mind being Leeds - Edinburgh.

There is already an hourly XC service!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I am given to understand that the original electrification proposal came from GNER at around the time that they were bidding for the franchise the second time. The idea was that it would allow them to run more Leeds services by operating a circular service and reducing congestion at Leeds station and on the Leeds "branch". However, the DfT denied them the paths needed to operate this service, awarding them instead to open-access operators Hull Trains and Grand Central.

You're absolutely right - the proposal was one of three key additional facilites which GNER would introduce during the term of their second franchise.
First was some additional paths
Second was this short length of electrification, the "electric horseshoe"
Third was barriers at many stations

These would produce additional revenue for the company.

And yes, after GNER committed to these 3, and their bid was accepted and the franchise granted, the DfT then allocated the extra paths to others!

Fair?
You can understand why GNER went to Court over this

 

[Old Timer]

I have great admiration for GNER having been involved in their discussions about taking on more responsibility for the Infrastructure, even to the point of looking to set up their own team to manage this.

The GNER management team were absolutely first class and it was simply Political chicanery and machination that resulted in GNER walking away.

GNER never had an issue with the Franchise until two things happened, firstly the extra paths were offered out when GNER had been ABSOLUTELY assured by Labour that they would not be, and secondly the sudden downturn in the economy meant that GNER 's parent Company could not absolutely guarantee the security bond.

There was absolutely no need for GNER to have walked away except that they were forced to by a cynical Government that was more interested in what money could be raked in rather than the performance and customer service that would be provided. IN the long run they would have been better off renogotiating the GNER terms, as remember that Bliar made sure that GNER were made aware of Virgin's interest in order to pump up the final figure agreed.

That Brown was was more interetested in what money would be brought in to fund the electroal bribe for the next General Election is more than proven by the fact that NE offered even MORE than GNER, when even a moron would have known that what was promised was totally impossible.

I will make no further comment other than to say that GNER was no favourite of Labour, and to suggest you look a lot closer at the (failed) NE team that took on the ECML and especially look at their various "friends" and sponsorship.

It will tell you much.

It is absolutely abhorent that the ONLY franchise that ever made money whilst winning acclaim for its customer service standards should have been destroyed on the alter of Political expedience.

Sadly the Conservatives will not take action to censure those who were involved which is a great, great shame, and Adonis is intellectually incapable of doing the right thing and bringing GNER back in to run the ECML franchise.

 

[O L Leigh]

That Brown was was more interetested in what money would be brought in to fund the electroal bribe for the next General Election is more than proven by the fact that NE offered even MORE than GNER, when even a moron would have known that what was promised was totally impossible.

Though perhaps it is interesting to note that Arriva allegedly offered more than even NX.

O L Leigh

 

[Old Timer]

Yes I appreciate that but you need to look at who was at each Company and then do the maths so to speak

 

[O L Leigh]

Oh, I entirely agree. I'm just coming to the same conclusion, but just starting from the other end.

The popular view of NXEC is that they were simply the highest bidder, but that simply isn't the case. So, to ask the rhetorical question, if money was all the DfT were interested in, why did NX get the East Coast franchise ahead of Arriva?

Answers on a postcard to the usual address.

O L Leigh

 

[StewieG]

There is already an hourly XC service!

There is... But, it could easily be made half hourly, even if it was just upto Newcastle between NXEC and XC.

 

[tbtc]

There is... But, it could easily be made half hourly, even if it was just upto Newcastle between NXEC and XC.

...but Leeds to Newcastle is already half hourly (XC and TPE)...

Unless the "Doncaster" XC services are diverted via Leeds instead, I can't see any of this changing

 

[StewieG]

...but Leeds to Newcastle is already half hourly (XC and TPE)...

Unless the "Doncaster" XC services are diverted via Leeds instead, I can't see any of this changing

And if you take a TPE service, it takes sooo long to get there.


I thought there was some talk of XC wanting to get rid of Doncaster from the route, and taking all services via Leeds

 

[MCR247]

They want to, but I'm not sure NXEC would be too happy

 

[Drsatan]

And if you take a TPE service, it takes sooo long to get there.


I thought there was some talk of XC wanting to get rid of Doncaster from the route, and taking all services via Leeds

Depends on how many available paths there are through Leeds as well.

 

[Dewedin]

The XC HSTs also run this section, I've thought for some time it would be a good candidate for electrification.