Yet Another Dire Day On The North Downs Line

[Deepgreen]

I thought the same 30 years ago. Horrible things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Jul 2025 ==


Despite my dislike of 165s, I cannot believe that 769s would be any better.

Well, IF they were deemed fit for their intended service use after their years of preparation, then one would hope that their newer equipment would be more reliable, and they would offer four, instead of two/three coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==

As a slight aside, does anyone know what happened to this train at Farnborough North today, and how it managed to regain so much time by seemingly only omitting one stop (Ash), given that the schedule has no pathing allowances, etc?

 

[MP393]

Well, IF they were deemed fit for their intended service use after their years of preparation, then one would hope that their newer equipment would be more reliable, and they would offer four, instead of two/three coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==

As a slight aside, does anyone know what happened to this train at Farnborough North today, and how it managed to regain so much time by seemingly only omitting one stop (Ash), given that the schedule has no pathing allowances, etc?
View attachment 185069

It’s got 5/6 mins booked time at Guildford, which it didn’t do, it was straight in and out which is where it made up the chunk of minutes seen there. It arrived at Guildford 36 late

 

[FGW_DID]

Well, IF they were deemed fit for their intended service use after their years of preparation, then one would hope that their newer equipment would be more reliable, and they would offer four, instead of two/three coaches.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==

As a slight aside, does anyone know what happened to this train at Farnborough North today, and how it managed to regain so much time by seemingly only omitting one stop (Ash), given that the schedule has no pathing allowances, etc?
View attachment 185069

Passenger taken ill on board.

 

[Bikeman78]

Well, IF they were deemed fit for their intended service use after their years of preparation, then one would hope that their newer equipment would be more reliable, and they would offer four, instead of two/three coaches.

Some reliability figures below from January 2025 Modern Railways. The Welsh class 769 did about 2000 miles between failures. This seems to be where they balance out. Also worth pointing out that availability is poor. It rare for more than four of the eight units to be available to cover the six diagrams. At least Northern has 150s and 156s to fall back on, albeit by splitting pairs. It seems unlikely that GWR would have had enough 165s at Reading depot to cover the gaps.

Miles per fault
Class 769: 2069
GWR class 165: 3793
GWR class 166: 3549
Chiltern class 165: 7111

The Chiltern units are rather better, but more of them park up off peak, whilst most of the GWR units are out all day. Hopefully the arrival of the 175s will free up some 165s so that they have more time to maintain them.

 

[Deepgreen]

It’s got 5/6 mins booked time at Guildford, which it didn’t do, it was straight in and out which is where it made up the chunk of minutes seen there. It arrived at Guildford 36 late

Yes, I had taken the Guildford dwell time into account but it managed to regain 13 minutes overall from Farnborough North to Reigate, only 4-5 of which were at Guildford. Just curious, as it is impossible to 'speed' to make up time, and there are almost no allowances en route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==

Passenger taken ill on board.

Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==

Some reliability figures below from January 2025 Modern Railways. The Welsh class 769 did about 2000 miles between failures. This seems to be where they balance out. Also worth pointing out that availability is poor. It rare for more than four of the eight units to be available to cover the six diagrams. At least Northern has 150s and 156s to fall back on, albeit by splitting pairs. It seems unlikely that GWR would have had enough 165s at Reading depot to cover the gaps.

Miles per fault
Class 769: 2069
GWR class 165: 3793
GWR class 166: 3549
Chiltern class 165: 7111

The Chiltern units are rather better, but more of them park up off peak, whilst most of the GWR units are out all day. Hopefully the arrival of the 175s will free up some 165s so that they have more time to maintain them.

That would be good, but I wonder if time is actually the issue, rather than a sheer lack of parts - I don't know.

 

[DelW]

Yes, I had taken the Guildford dwell time into account but it managed to regain 13 minutes overall from Farnborough North to Reigate, only 4-5 of which were at Guildford. Just curious, as it is impossible to 'speed' to make up time, and there are almost no allowances en route.

Something is a little odd with the times at Dorking, where it's shown departing from Deepdene half a minute before it passed West. I know they're not far apart, but negative time (including the Deepdene stop, assuming that wasn't skipped) seems problematic.

 

[JonathanH]

Something is a little odd with the times at Dorking, where it's shown departing from Deepdene half a minute before it passed West. I know they're not far apart, but negative time (including the Deepdene stop, assuming that wasn't skipped) seems problematic.

Dorking West and Dorking Deepdene are in the same signal block going eastbound so the respective times are merely a guess.

 

[Benjwri]

Something is a little odd with the times at Dorking, where it's shown departing from Deepdene half a minute before it passed West. I know they're not far apart, but negative time (including the Deepdene stop, assuming that wasn't skipped) seems problematic.

RTT only guesses if something stops or passes, and this is based on TRUST and TD data, the later which is based off averages to work out the actual time.

If you look at Darwin the train ran fast from Farnborough North to Redhill, only stopping at Guildford.

 

[Deepgreen]

RTT only guesses if something stops or passes, and this is based on TRUST and TD data, the later which is based off averages to work out the actual time.

If you look at Darwin the train ran fast from Farnborough North to Redhill, only stopping at Guildford.

Ah - the explanation, which I couldn't glean from RTT! Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yes, I had taken the Guildford dwell time into account but it managed to regain 13 minutes overall from Farnborough North to Reigate, only 4-5 of which were at Guildford. Just curious, as it is impossible to 'speed' to make up time, and there are almost no allowances en route.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==


Thanks.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==


That would be good, but I wonder if time is actually the issue, rather than a sheer lack of parts - I don't know.

It seems likely. If parts were an issue, how come Chiltern can get them but GWR cannot? Averaged over several weeks, the Chiltern units have more down time. Are there any GWR 165/166 that stable between the peaks?

 

[Deepgreen]

Meanwhile the BBC has an item on the Guildford to Gatwick closure in September where they choose to show the Marlow branch to illustrate it... Annoying, as we go away then and would have used the train from Gomshall to Gatwick. One of the crossings being upgraded is on our lane - Burrows Lane, Gomshall, which has had no end of work done on it aleady this year!

 

[FGW_DID]

It seems likely. If parts were an issue, how come Chiltern can get them but GWR cannot? Averaged over several weeks, the Chiltern units have more down time. Are there any GWR 165/166 that stable between the peaks?

Can’t speak for SPM but at Reading TCD there is only 2x 2car 165s that return between the peaks.
One returns from Oxford (09:15), the second from working the Maidenhead - Bourne End shuttles (09:25).
Both depart at 15:45 with one returning to Oxford, the other to do the evening peak Maidenhead - Bourne End shuttle.

 

[Deepgreen]

Awful yet again today with the ever-growing staff issues compounded by a problem at Guildford. NRE claims that no trains can leave Guildford, however, a train has lost 13 minutes around Shalford, which is not the same as not being able to leave Guildford!

 

[JonathanH]

Awful yet again today with the ever-growing staff issues compounded by a problem at Guildford. NRE claims that no trains can leave Guildford, however, a train has lost 13 minutes around Shalford, which is not the same as not being able to leave Guildford!

The train which lost time at Shalford was waiting for the line to reopen after repair of a track defect.

 

[Deepgreen]

The train which lost time at Shalford was waiting for the line to reopen after repair of a track defect.

Oh so it wasn't AT Guildford that the track defect occurred? NRE (unsurprisingly) was low on detail. Thanks. Still a terrible day for staff issues.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Oh so it wasn't AT Guildford that the track defect occurred? NRE (unsurprisingly) was low on detail. Thanks. Still a terrible day for staff issues.

There was a reported track defect on the Up Fast at Earlswood yesterday morning and they culled the 9R thameslinks, the rush hour Southerns to Gatwick and GWRs presumably to free up capacity on the Up Slow and then promptly continued to run most trains over the Up Fast anyway! Maybe that was the cause?

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There was a reported track defect on the Up Fast at Earlswood yesterday morning and they culled the 9R thameslinks, the rush hour Southerns to Gatwick and GWRs presumably to free up capacity on the Up Slow and then promptly continued to run most trains over the Up Fast anyway! Maybe that was the cause?

If it’s the day I’m thinking of, the North Downs was affected by more than one track defect - the issue at Earlswood and also something in the Gomshall area. I wonder if any of the earthworks are built with clay, which is suffering from moisture-content deficiency at the moment, which causes track quality to deteriorate.

 

[Farnborough]

I haven't had chance to look deeply at the causes, but this afternoon seemed a pretty dire session...

• 1O61/1V43 cancelled (165114 allocated)
• 1O62/1V44 cancelled (165106 allocated)
• 1O68 (165123) didn't make it to Gatwick... 1V50 ran back from Reigate
• 1O69 (165106) didn't make it to Gatwick... 1V51 cancelled?
• 1O70/1V52 cancelled
• 1O71/1V53 cancelled
• 1O72/1V54 cancelled
• 1O75/1v57 cancelled
• 1O77/1V59 cancelled
• 1O79/1V60 cancelled

I'm assuming some (all?) of the later are cascaded from the former?

I took the car today...

 

[FenMan]

I haven't had chance to look deeply at the causes, but this afternoon seemed a pretty dire session...

• 1O61/1V43 cancelled (165114 allocated)
• 1O62/1V44 cancelled (165106 allocated)
• 1O68 (165123) didn't make it to Gatwick... 1V50 ran back from Reigate
• 1O69 (165106) didn't make it to Gatwick... 1V51 cancelled?
• 1O70/1V52 cancelled
• 1O71/1V53 cancelled
• 1O72/1V54 cancelled
• 1O75/1v57 cancelled
• 1O77/1V59 cancelled
• 1O79/1V60 cancelled

I'm assuming some (all?) of the later are cascaded from the former?

I took the car today...

I was on the 12:24 ex-Reading that terminated short of Gatwick. According to the guard the unit was put into service despite faulty aircon in one of the cabs. It was a hot afternoon and the driver refused to work in that cab. Bit of a mystery why the service ran at all as someone would have had to drive the unit back to Reading.

 

[Deepgreen]

The line is to be closed from Guildford to Gatwick Airport from 14 - 28 Spetember. We (in Gomshall) have had a letter from NR addressed to "Neighbour" which lists replacement buses as follows:
"A fast bus from Guildford to Gatwick will run as well as a stopping service". It so happens that we are flying back to Gatwick on 17 September, so I wanted to check on RTT what the times are. For Gomshall it only lists Redhill to Guildford buses, not from Gatwick. Is this just poor wording by NR in their letter, or an error on the RTT base data entry?

 

[Benjwri]

The line is to be closed from Guildford to Gatwick Airport from 14 - 28 Spetember. We (in Gomshall) have had a letter from NR addressed to "Neighbour" which lists replacement buses as follows:
"A fast bus from Guildford to Gatwick will run as well as a stopping service". It so happens that we are flying back to Gatwick on 17 September, so I wanted to check on RTT what the times are. For Gomshall it only lists Redhill to Guildford buses, not from Gatwick. Is this just poor wording by NR in their letter, or an error on the RTT base data entry?

The listing on RTT is correct. The 'stopping' service only runs between Redhill and Guildford, not Gatwick. This is further explained on GWR's Engineering Page:

Sunday 7 September, plus Monday 15 to Saturday 27 September

Trains will run between Reading and Guildford with replacement buses planned between:

• Guildford and Gatwick Airport – non-stop
• Guildford and Redhill – stopping at all stations

Southern train services will still run between Redhill and Reigate or Gatwick Airport.

Thameslink and Gatwick Express services will also operate to/from Gatwick Airport.

 

[Deepgreen]

The listing on RTT is correct. The 'stopping' service only runs between Redhill and Guildford, not Gatwick. This is further explained on GWR's Engineering Page:

I suspected NR would have got it wrong! Thanks.

 

[Bishopstone]

The direct buses from Gatwick to Guildford are scheduled to take 1hr 40min, which sounds unambitious. Is there a tour of the North Downs included?

 

[Deepgreen]

The direct buses from Gatwick to Guildford are scheduled to take 1hr 40min, which sounds unambitious. Is there a tour of the North Downs included?

That is grim for a non-stop run!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The direct buses from Gatwick to Guildford are scheduled to take 1hr 40min, which sounds unambitious. Is there a tour of the North Downs included?

Looking at RTT for Sunday 07th, the non-stop buses are scheduled to take an hour or slightly longer. The stopping buses (which also go to/from the Airport) take between 90-100 minutes. That sounds about right?

I suspect the GWR publicity does not quote stopping buses running to/from Gatwick to ensure that nobody accidentally boards a slow bus at Guildford, wanting the Airport.

 

[Deepgreen]

Looking at RTT for Sunday 07th, the non-stop buses are scheduled to take an hour or slightly longer. The stopping buses (which also go to/from the Airport) take between 90-100 minutes. That sounds about right?

I suspect the GWR publicity does not quote stopping buses running to/from Gatwick to ensure that nobody accidentally boards a slow bus at Guildford, wanting the Airport.

So we already have different/unclear information from GWR and NR about the replacement buses! Fragmentation...

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

So we already have different/unclear information from GWR and NR about the replacement buses! Fragmentation...

Why are Network Rail making detailed statements about rail replacement anyway? The TOC plans and operates them, and provides the bus timetable data to be published via NRE etc.

Edit - @Deepgreen forgive me, your leaflet was detailing the long closure rather than the coming weekend I looked at.

 

[Stephen42]

Looking at RTT for Sunday 07th, the non-stop buses are scheduled to take an hour or slightly longer. The stopping buses (which also go to/from the Airport) take between 90-100 minutes. That sounds about right?

I suspect the GWR publicity does not quote stopping buses running to/from Gatwick to ensure that nobody accidentally boards a slow bus at Guildford, wanting the Airport.

The buses on the 7th run through, but don't appear to during the longer block. On the 7th there are no trains at Redhill which might be why they are extended to Gatwick Airport that day to avoid people having to get two buses.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

So we already have different/unclear information from GWR and NR about the replacement buses! Fragmentation...

Deeper question should be why do they need so long to commission a LXing? Barriers only needed 27hrs a decade or so back but that was double shifting it. The new signals are just relocations and all run off lineside controls so its not as if its an interlocking change.

As your nearby a wonder up the lane to see what hours they work should be revealing!!

I also wouldn't mind if they just blitzed everything else on these blockades that was the justification for them but they don't. So after this blockade almost every Sunday the service is reduced to hourly as well as some Saturdays (maybe be nothing to do with the works). There is also modifications to many late services over the five weeks after the blockade finishes. Then there is sat/sun + sat/sun/mon Reading-Wokingham closures in October buses to Nth camp or Guildford.

 

[Bishopstone]

Putting Gatwick to Guildford into the National Rail journey planner for Sunday 7th reveals only the 1hr 40min buses, which are indeed ‘stopping’ buses via the A25 - my mistake. No faster buses are shown.