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Yet another Coalition education screw up

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ExRes

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I remember our maths was taught from great big 1980s textbooks. Not an issue, but this was in 2008/9! Problems involving cricket scores or billiards weren't understood by most...

Nice to see some educational facilities being economical ;)

On the other hand though I can't see why anyone should have a problem with the maths of cricket or billiards, or even counting backwards from 501, if they can count to 140 characters on their fingers .........
 
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DynamicSpirit

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I wouldn't take the details too seriously, it's just another populist soundbite


That's what I thought about the Sheffield 'impossible' economics exam -

http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/university-of-sheffield-students-demand-investigation-over-highly-unfair-exam-10014553.html
There doesn't seem to be anything difficult, just terms that the students didn't recognise.

When I saw the article on BBC News, almost the first thing I did was try doing that question. I thought there were two bits that were badly worded. In part (b) Draw a graph of per-capita consumption can only be done if you assume that consumption is equal to net production - not an unreasonable assumption but should have been explicit. And in part (c) Describe which combinations of σ and y generate a peasant economy requires assuming that the economy generated is the one with highest consumption - again not an unreasonable assumption, but it arguably should have been explicit.

But having said that, the level of maths required - differentiating x^n and sketching a graph - was first year 'A' level back in my day (1980s), and the level of economics required is basically an understanding of what production and consumption are. It seems extraordinary to me that final year economics degree students wouldn't understand those topics and hence be able to answer the question. I would guess from that that you are correct and the problem is the students didn't know how to apply their knowledge in different situations. (Of course, without knowing what was actually taught on the course and what was said by the lecturers to the students, it's impossible to tell whose fault the problem is).
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On the other hand though I can't see why anyone should have a problem with the maths of cricket or billiards, or even counting backwards from 501, if they can count to 140 characters on their fingers .........

I would guess the problem is that you need to understand something of the rules of those games in order to know what any terminology used in the results means in numerical terms. Lots of people wouldn't have that knowledge.
 
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Bayum

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As I said, small village school, with a full range of ability and achievements. My wife, similar vintage, had the same experience in her school in Borehamwood, with the same mix of children. So it worked with small and large groups across the ability spectrum. Could it be down to a better teacher, with faith in her methods and understanding?
Except that the visual methods such as you describe do require pencil and paper, and so are unsuitable for many contexts. To my mind the more graphic approaches are more confusing to children who are capable at a very early age of grasping procedures and implementing them. It is patronising, IMHO, to think that you have to explain everything graphically.

Which is why many maths lessons incorporate a mental arithmetic part to them.
 

Tetchytyke

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:roll:

Yes, this is exactly how it works.

I'm getting sick of having my uni discredited by people who just assume everyone bought their way in. We didn't. No-one here did, wherever they came from.

It depends how you look at "buying your way in". I am aware of people at Oxford, having been told about them by friends in the same college, who were given offers of one E at A'Level because they happened to be good at rowing. The story may be apocryphal but given the close-knit nature of Oxbridge colleges I doubt it.

Similarly my experience is that universities are always more amenable to international student applications than they would be if that student were home-funded. This was certainly the case at my alma mater- Durham- and we know how Gaddafi's son was allegedly able to purchase his PhD from LSE.

As for long division and long multiplication, I think politicians generally choose these as good soundbites because they sound difficult. They know most people cannot do them properly- and I include in this many people who think they know how to do them properly- and so it sounds like they're being tough on education standards. I only really got the hang of them when I did algebraic long multiplication/division at A'Level.

I've been fortunate that my school took mental arithmetic seriously- our earlier end of year exams saw calculators banned- and it is something that I see as good fortune now I work with so many people who do not have the skill. It does not do them good in life. Supermarkets, for instance, are buggers for blinding people with mathematics- they all display unit price, just as they have to, but it's amazing how often one brand is priced p/kg and the other (which is on the middle shelf and they want to sell more of) is priced p/100g.

underbank said:
So hilarious to see how the staff in our local Spar shop managed in a power cut. They hadn't a clue and couldn't add up more than a couple of items in their heads, and failed miserably in working out change. However it was business as normal in the pie shop next door who had older staff who managed to add up several items in their heads and had no problem with change.

Couldn't agree more with this. I was always pleased by how so few market traders in the Grainger Market in Newcastle used their tills to work things out, most stalls either did it in their head or scribbled everything down on the bag and used a biro to work it out. It made everything so much quicker and there were fewer mistakes too.
 

bb21

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As I said, small village school, with a full range of ability and achievements. My wife, similar vintage, had the same experience in her school in Borehamwood, with the same mix of children. So it worked with small and large groups across the ability spectrum. Could it be down to a better teacher, with faith in her methods and understanding?
...

There may be an element of that in there. I can't possibly say. It isn't going to be simple to pin down why some people do well but others badly with some methods. It could be down to the teaching method, or even just plain cognitive differences of some sort which we don't really know.

Except that the visual methods such as you describe do require pencil and paper, and so are unsuitable for many contexts. To my mind the more graphic approaches are more confusing to children who are capable at a very early age of grasping procedures and implementing them. It is patronising, IMHO, to think that you have to explain everything graphically.

They do, but so does the specified method the Education Secretary is going to force upon every school-leaver. For the avoidance of doubt, I don't mean something like 800 x 1200 as that is not long multiplication, but something that cannot simply be worked out with the 12 times tables like 76 x 123, for example.

All multiplication methods require an understanding of place value if not taught simply through rote learning. Some of the graphical methods only require this understanding and are easier to understand and remember for those who cannot visualise place values, eg. the box method of multiplication, where each digit (with its place value) is split along the sides of a large triangle and cross-multiplied.

I don't think it is patronising to have to explain things graphically. Graphical perception is a perfectly reasonable way of learning and understanding, as long as it is done correctly, and for some people, far easier than other approaches. The government keeps talking about inclusive education. That should not just be about being inclusive in terms of behavioural issues, but more importantly recognising the different learning styles and catering for them. I cannot speak for other subjects but mathematics is ultimately about empowering the population with the ability of (independent) thinking, the ability of being analytical, the ability of solving a problem with one's own method. It does not matter what method one uses, as long as it is a correct one and gives the right solution.

Rote learning has its place when a necessary skill is not easy to explain and the mechanism behind it tricky to understand. You will never convince some pupils at a young age (even up to 16 in top ability sets) that long multiplication works because shifting some digits gradually and padding zeros at the end is because of place value, because they cannot "see" it. In the days when manual calculation was widespread and common practice in the workplace (remember log tables?), this was a vital skill therefore it was a good idea if taught through that approach, but the world has moved on. Like the example you gave earlier of square-rooting by hand, you no longer remember it because after a period of disuse, since you don't understand why it works (I make a brave assumption here), it is difficult to reconstruct the method for yourself. This is simply a side-effect of rote learning. Same will likely happen (and has probably already happened with many) with long division for example.

But having said that, the level of maths required - differentiating x^n and sketching a graph - was first year 'A' level back in my day (1980s), and the level of economics required is basically an understanding of what production and consumption are. It seems extraordinary to me that final year economics degree students wouldn't understand those topics and hence be able to answer the question. I would guess from that that you are correct and the problem is the students didn't know how to apply their knowledge in different situations. (Of course, without knowing what was actually taught on the course and what was said by the lecturers to the students, it's impossible to tell whose fault the problem is).

Final year economics students don't always have many of the necessary mathematical skills if our ones from a few years back (BSc Economics with Mathematics - not sure if they still run that course) were anything to go by. You will be surprised how many cannot differentiate, how many cannot work with continuously compounded interest rate, to the extent that some simply had to be told to remember the formula, and even then some still struggle if a change of subject is required before using that formula (or alternatively solving the equation after substitution), all of which stuff from the first year of A-Level or earlier. Some cannot read log tables properly, nor use a calculator competently when log is involved.

This also applied to a large proportion of those doing BSc Management, or even some on MSc Financial Management courses.
 

TheKnightWho

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It depends how you look at "buying your way in". I am aware of people at Oxford, having been told about them by friends in the same college, who were given offers of one E at A'Level because they happened to be good at rowing. The story may be apocryphal but given the close-knit nature of Oxbridge colleges I doubt it.

Similarly my experience is that universities are always more amenable to international student applications than they would be if that student were home-funded. This was certainly the case at my alma mater- Durham- and we know how Gaddafi's son was allegedly able to purchase his PhD from LSE.

The lower offers for sports and certain music things has been phased out in the last 10 years for exactly that reason.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Final year economics students don't always have many of the necessary mathematical skills if our ones from a few years back (BSc Economics with Mathematics - not sure if they still run that course) were anything to go by. You will be surprised how many cannot differentiate, how many cannot work with continuously compounded interest rate, to the extent that some simply had to be told to remember the formula, and even then some still struggle if a change of subject is required before using that formula (or alternatively solving the equation after substitution), all of which stuff from the first year of A-Level or earlier. Some cannot read log tables properly, nor use a calculator competently when log is involved.

This also applied to a large proportion of those doing BSc Management, or even some on MSc Financial Management courses.

Wow, I have to say I find that quite staggering and very sad. To me, that suggests something wrong with what or how people are being taught (although I don't know what the problem is or what the solutions would be).
 

Busaholic

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How does the unit price of a pack of 30 tesco value eggs @ £3.75 stack up against Morrissons 2 dozen at £3.20?

The price label on the shelf should tell you how much they are per unit i.e. an egg in this case. However, I have noticed in Tesco recently that some of these unit prices have been wrong, usually but not always an underestimate. Sometimes they are also wrong in the per kilo column e.g. a 500g pack of something £5, price per kilo also shown as £5. I am saving some of these up in my head and will check again and take it up with Tesco if it gets to be too frequent. Trading Standards don't seem interested, I gave up with them at the second time of asking when I found some croissants three months out of date when I was in a store at the same time as one of their people was supposedly doing a check, brought it to their attention and they said 'it wasn't a legal requirement' or some such obfuscation.
 

Tetchytyke

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I found some croissants three months out of date when I was in a store at the same time as one of their people was supposedly doing a check, brought it to their attention and they said 'it wasn't a legal requirement' or some such obfuscation.

They were probably correct. It is not an offence to sell something "out of date" if the date is stated as "best before". It is only an offence to sell something "out of date" if it's listed as "use by".
 

muz379

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I've specifically had experience with Oxford applications, which have the large assumption that most candidates are more than capable of coping with the actual course itself. They just want to ensure they have the best.
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Ahh but now we are also talking about an institution which interviews candidates . the uni I was talking about didnt interview for the course I was aware of admissions policies for . Obviously you can gleam a lot more about a person from an interview than a piece of paper with qualifications written on it .
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They were probably correct. It is not an offence to sell something "out of date" if the date is stated as "best before". It is only an offence to sell something "out of date" if it's listed as "use by".

this is correct .


Items marked best before (crisps or biscuits ,etc) can legally be sold after this date but all the big chains have policies that state they wont sell items after this date

Items marked use by (meat,eggs,dairy,etc) cannot legally be sold after the date
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Similarly my experience is that universities are always more amenable to international student applications than they would be if that student were home-funded. This was certainly the case at my alma mater- Durham- and we know how Gaddafi's son was allegedly able to purchase his PhD from LSE.

This mirrors my experience at uni as well . But then with international fees being higher . up to £25k in the case of some clinical post graduate subjects I can see why they might be swayed by the extra fees .
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Like to also add with all this talk about counting change in shops . When I worked in retail whenever I worked a till most of the time I used to count the change back to the customer unless the change was just like one or two coins . Best way to do it to cut down on mistakes IMO
 
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