XC WCML

[lrbvoyager]

This might sound like a silly question to some, but I’m curious. With operators going back to the public does anyone think we will see a return to the XC services that went via Carlisle and Preston again?

 

[Bertie the bus]

No. I don't really see the need anyway when there is an hourly Birmingham service where you can change for all the SW and South Coast destinations.

 

[swt_passenger]

This might sound like a silly question to some, but I’m curious. With operators going back to the public does anyone think we will see a return to the XC services that went via Carlisle and Preston again?

In 2007 it was DfT who removed XC from the north WCML, XC didn’t come up with the idea themselves, so you’d need DfT to redesign the network. It’s nothing to do with the nationalisation question, I reckon DfT would stand by the original reasoning.

 

[Brubulus]

In 2007 it was DfT who removed XC from the north WCML, XC didn’t come up with the idea themselves, so you’d need DfT to redesign the network. It’s nothing to do with the nationalisation question, I reckon DfT would stand by the original reasoning.

It could change, but only once HS2 opens. Since there will be a desire to run a Curzon St-Manchester service, the current Bristol-Manchester service can be rerouted to Glasgow/Edinburgh. However running anything to Manchester via HS2 puts pressure on paths through Colwich, requiring split/joins at Crewe for London services.

 

[lrbvoyager]

It could change, but only once HS2 opens. Since there will be a desire to run a Curzon St-Manchester service, the current Bristol-Manchester service can be rerouted to Glasgow/Edinburgh. However running anything to Manchester via HS2 puts pressure on paths through Colwich, requiring split/joins at Crewe for London services.

221s would be able to access hs2?

 

[Topological]

Could the Manchester services terminate at Crewe?

Assuming that there are Curzon Street to Piccadilly trains then there are definitely decisions to be made about XC. The turnaround for the Bournemouth then going back to Bournemouth is about 45 minutes, meaning a train sitting in the main shed at Piccadilly for most of the hour. Presumably, the Curzon Street extra would have to come and go in that time and need another platform.

Turning the two Manchester XCs at Crewe could save a Voyager or two. Whether there is scope for two Curzon Street to Manchester trains per hour is less clear.

In answer to the opening post, there does not seem to be any likelihood of XC returning to the WCML. The Avanti Pendolinos offer much more capacity on Birmingham to Scotland than XC could.

 

[Zomboid]

It could change, but only once HS2 opens. Since there will be a desire to run a Curzon St-Manchester service, the current Bristol-Manchester service can be rerouted to Glasgow/Edinburgh. However running anything to Manchester via HS2 puts pressure on paths through Colwich, requiring split/joins at Crewe for London services.

I didn't think they were laying track on the northern leg of the HS2 triangle. In which case Curzon Street will only be useful for London.

 

[Harpo]

Great idea. Pick one of our most abysmal TOCs with a woeful record on reliability, train quality and extreme over-crowding and give it some extra stuff to do??

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Some at the Department for Transport have long wanted to abolish CrossCountry and most of it's services. If COVID hadn't happened, there were serious proposals to do so beforehand purely as cost reduction measures.

The logic was that the majority of XC journeys could be made by alternative, often faster, routes on vastly superior rolling stock. It neglected or ignored that this generally involved travelling and changing via London which would likely put a lot of customers off travelling at all.

The local/regional Turbostar routes would have been split and integrated into a suitable local operator, such as EMR.

CrossCountry's current operation is by design - whether it's the fares, rolling stock or routes - it's all very much intentional.

GBR will likely change how XC is resourced, so won't be a standalone business unit anymore - but it is even more likely that any duplication with other GBR routes will be culled.

Personally, I'd divert the current XC Manchester services via Alsager to serve Crewe instead of Macclesfield, which would restore good connectivity with the West Coast Mainline traffic. One or two trains per day already do this.

 

[Zomboid]

sonally, I'd divert the current XC Manchester services via Alsager to serve Crewe instead of Macclesfield, which would restore good connectivity with the West Coast Mainline traffic. One or two trains per day already do this.

That would be a significant downgrade to the only fast service between the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in the country.

Everywhere that those trains serve between Birmingham and Stoke already has a regular direct service to Crewe.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

How exactly?

That would be a significant downgrade to the only fast service between the 2nd and 3rd biggest cities in the country.

Everywhere that those trains serve between Birmingham and Stoke already has a regular direct service to Crewe.

The journey time would be pretty similar so not sure how that would be a downgrade.

It isn't about serving Crewe as a town, it's about making the most of Crewe as a hub for connections from North Wales, Scotland, Merseyside, Lancashire and Cumbria.

Manchester - Birmingham will be very well served by HS2 which will move people away from CrossCountry anyway.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Manchester - Birmingham will be very well served by HS2 which will move people away from CrossCountry anyway.

When exactly is HS2 operating to Manchester expected to be?

 

[Zomboid]

Manchester - Birmingham will be very well served by HS2 which will move people away from CrossCountry anyway

Not in phase 1 it won't. Last I heard they weren't laying track on the northern leg of the triangle, so HS2 will only link places to London.

Diverting XC to run via Alsager will increase journey times, cut Macclesfield out of the network and won't actually provide any new connectivity (at least for stations from Coventry north) as everywhere already has trains to Crewe.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Some at the Department for Transport have long wanted to abolish CrossCountry and most of it's services. If COVID hadn't happened, there were serious proposals to do so beforehand purely as cost reduction measures.

The logic was that the majority of XC journeys could be made by alternative, often faster, routes on vastly superior rolling stock. It neglected or ignored that this generally involved travelling and changing via London which would likely put a lot of customers off travelling at all.

The local/regional Turbostar routes would have been split and integrated into a suitable local operator, such as EMR.

CrossCountry's current operation is by design - whether it's the fares, rolling stock or routes - it's all very much intentional.

GBR will likely change how XC is resourced, so won't be a standalone business unit anymore - but it is even more likely that any duplication with other GBR routes will be culled.

Personally, I'd divert the current XC Manchester services via Alsager to serve Crewe instead of Macclesfield, which would restore good connectivity with the West Coast Mainline traffic. One or two trains per day already do this.

How else would the split have looked?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This might sound like a silly question to some, but I’m curious. With operators going back to the public does anyone think we will see a return to the XC services that went via Carlisle and Preston again?

They still exist, they are just operated by Avanti and TPE.

 

[The Planner]

Personally, I'd divert the current XC Manchester services via Alsager to serve Crewe instead of Macclesfield, which would restore good connectivity with the West Coast Mainline traffic. One or two trains per day already do this.

That is an awful idea and would just push people on to other services. They only do it now as route rentention. The connectivity is there at Stafford.

 

[60159]

Probably impossible but should be hourly XC Ed-south of birm and Glas south of Birm joining at Carlisle and no Avanti to Birm.Gives huge thru’ connectivity without changing
And Ed- Birm almost an hour quicker via west coast.
Should be bimode as under the wires to birm and depending on capacity Coventry and Bromsgrove.

 

[irish_rail]

No. I don't really see the need anyway when there is an hourly Birmingham service where you can change for all the SW and South Coast destinations.

But that's just the trouble. The connection from the WCML to south west trains at New Street is awful. It's over an hour wait . So either we do need to see some direct XC trains up the WCML or the connections should be improved to provide the south west with a reasonable journey time from the north west.

 

[swt_passenger]

The post HS2 scenario wasn’t the OP’s question. I agree that’s a possible reason for alterations, but it’s not in the immediate future, give it another 10 years.

The current question is about the imminent bringing it into the GBR fold, and I still can’t see why that will automatically reinstate WCML extensions.

 

[WAO]

I imagine that the financial attraction of electric working from B'ham to Scotland was the reason for the curtailment of Voyager XC. I suspect that when the York - Leeds wires are live a similar temptation might arise (perhaps even starting as far back as Derby, should the MML get its wires to Moorthorpe. I read some time ago that the average XC journey length was only 47 miles, so not so many very long distance jouneys affected by splitting. Still, the attraction of not-London and no change N - S journeys (I remember trying to explain to grandmothers how to change at New Street!) should leave a minority of through services at least until the bi-modes or OLE arrives.

WAO

 

[London Trains]

I haven't checked that the pathing for all of this works perfectly, but this would be how I would change the services between Birmingham and Manchester to better suit demand and reduce the number of diesels running under the wires:

• Withdraw one of the hourly XC services between Manchester and Birmingham.
• Divert the other service between Stafford and Stockport via Crewe and Wilmslow.
• Introduce a half-hourly electric service between Birmingham Intl and Manchester Piccadilly, using 350s or similar, with stops at Birmingham New St, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stone, Stoke, Kidsgrove, Congleton, Macclesfield and Stockport.
• Cut back the Stoke to Manchester stopper to only run between Macclesfield and Manchester.
• Cut back the Stafford to Crewe shuttle to only run between Stoke and Crewe.

 

[cle]

• Withdraw one of the hourly XC services between Manchester and Birmingham.

Curious which arm you would choose - ie do Reading/Oxford or Bristol lose their Manchester service?

And for that service (now terminating at New St?) - if it was the Bristol (would be my pick) - could a path exist to at least extend it somewhere useful to get it out of the shed - it's a DMU still and pointing east - so could it get to at least Derby or Nottingham? And add a service on that route? Or might it be more useful aiming for Nuneaton and that direction, to at least Leicester? Nottingham by that route perhaps.

 

[Bertie the bus]

But that's just the trouble. The connection from the WCML to south west trains at New Street is awful. It's over an hour wait . So either we do need to see some direct XC trains up the WCML or the connections should be improved to provide the south west with a reasonable journey time from the north west.

There isn't over 1 hour's wait at all. There is virtually nothing west of Bristol. How many people do you think want to travel from Penrith to Totnes?

 

[lrbvoyager]

There isn't over 1 hour's wait at all. There is virtually nothing west of Bristol. How many people do you think want to travel from Penrith to Totnes?

But people from totnes might want to get to oxenholme or Penrith for access to the Lake District?

 

[The Planner]

I haven't checked that the pathing for all of this works perfectly, but this would be how I would change the services between Birmingham and Manchester to better suit demand and reduce the number of diesels running under the wires:

• Withdraw one of the hourly XC services between Manchester and Birmingham.
• Divert the other service between Stafford and Stockport via Crewe and Wilmslow.
• Introduce a half-hourly electric service between Birmingham Intl and Manchester Piccadilly, using 350s or similar, with stops at Birmingham New St, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Stone, Stoke, Kidsgrove, Congleton, Macclesfield and Stockport.
• Cut back the Stoke to Manchester stopper to only run between Macclesfield and Manchester.
• Cut back the Stafford to Crewe shuttle to only run between Stoke and Crewe.

That doesn't work. You cannot fit a train in between International and New St. You'll struggle with New St to Wolves. You are adding another af Crewe and Stockport too. The interworking at New St with Bristol and Bournemouth does you no favours either.

 

[Brubulus]

Curious which arm you would choose - ie do Reading/Oxford or Bristol lose their Manchester service?

And for that service (now terminating at New St?) - if it was the Bristol (would be my pick) - could a path exist to at least extend it somewhere useful to get it out of the shed - it's a DMU still and pointing east - so could it get to at least Derby or Nottingham? And add a service on that route? Or might it be more useful aiming for Nuneaton and that direction, to at least Leicester? Nottingham by that route perhaps.

There isn't the space for more trains on the conventional network. However there is space for some split/joint games involving HS2 that enables the Bristol-Manchester to become a Bristol-Scotland alongside a new Curzon St-Manchester service.

 

[JonathanH]

I imagine that the financial attraction of electric working from B'ham to Scotland was the reason for the curtailment of Voyager XC.

Was that a consideration in 2008? It seemed as if the West Coast XC operation just fitted better with the rest of the Virgin Trains services and gave a critical mass to the size of the WC Voyager fleet.

 

[Bertie the bus]

But people from totnes might want to get to oxenholme or Penrith for access to the Lake District?

You don't run hourly services 363 days per year because Mr & Mrs Smith might want a hiking weekend in the Lake District.

 

[cle]

There isn't the space for more trains on the conventional network. However there is space for some split/joint games involving HS2 that enables the Bristol-Manchester to become a Bristol-Scotland alongside a new Curzon St-Manchester service.

There is on some parts of the network. I appreciate Coventry - Wolves is full, as is Stockport-Manchester.

Certainly Birmingham-Nuneaton-Leicester is not at full capacity.

A Curzon-Mcr service would likely have to take the Stoke stopper path (arguments exist for extending that also to add a slow / some Curzon St regional service, e.g Stone/Congleton-Brum pretty nippy) - but really, 1tph of the 2 Euston or 2 XC paths via Stoke would be better for a faster service.

5tph total fast into Manchester
1tph trad via Stoke remains
1tph HS2 Stoke (Macc terminator still?)
HS2 will want at least 2 via Crewe
so that leaves whatever XC service survives, and likely via Stoke as that's the current pathing. So could be a Curzon, could be today's XC.

 

[London Trains]

Curious which arm you would choose - ie do Reading/Oxford or Bristol lose their Manchester service?

And for that service (now terminating at New St?) - if it was the Bristol (would be my pick) - could a path exist to at least extend it somewhere useful to get it out of the shed - it's a DMU still and pointing east - so could it get to at least Derby or Nottingham? And add a service on that route? Or might it be more useful aiming for Nuneaton and that direction, to at least Leicester? Nottingham by that route perhaps.

I'm not certain but I'm also leaning towards the Bristol service being the one to be cut back. It would definitely make sense to extend the route somewhere from New St, but the main issue with an extension to Derby or Nottingham would be that the Voyagers aren't particularly suitable for these regional services, unless of course you converted the entire route to 170s.