XC stop split tickets? Advice please..

[Starmill]

Yes, this. I rather doubt a guard would tell someone to use a train on which their ticket isn't valid.

Surely it requires a lot of faith to assume that all guards would not do so, either as a result of misunderstanding or some other motive?

 

[northwichcat]

When I worked for a different TOC, a brief did go out on split ticketing in response to the publicity on the matter generated by Money Saving Expert. It basically stated that passengers should be charged as appropriate if they didn't comply with Condition 19b and dispelled myths about a requirement for passengers to get off the train at the point of changing tickets. I can't recall any comments about 19a or 19c splits.

One thing to note regarding MSE is Martin Lewis doesn't endorse travelling short at all. He refers to starting journeys on North Wales to London tickets at Chester being banned but doesn't refer to it being allowed in many other instances.

 

[MyFriendMary]

Well this might be fun when I take an XC service and then a Virgin one to waaay up North with a handful of advance split tickets [same train] in one hand and PRIV tickets in the other.

 

[RJ]

Re: Privs, I've found XC's guards and conductors to be very friendly and accommodating to all of their passengers, including other staff. That said, creative ticketing with a Priv always seems to go down worse than not having one at all!

 

[Jeni]

While I don't split tickets much anymore, I usually travel with some creative routing, and have never had a problem from XC. Even when I used to split my Manchester - Birmingham journey into 3 tickets to travel at peak time for off peak prices, they never batted an eyelid.

The problem I usually have is getting Virgin staff at Manchester or Stockport to actually sell me the tickets that I want! (Yes I know that I *can* book online, but my plans are liable to change right until the point where I set foot in the station - buying at the station stops me wasting money)

 

[Baxenden Bank]

While I don't split tickets much anymore, I usually travel with some creative routing, and have never had a problem from XC. Even when I used to split my Manchester - Birmingham journey into 3 tickets to travel at peak time for off peak prices, they never batted an eyelid.

The problem I usually have is getting Virgin staff at Manchester or Stockport to actually sell me the tickets that I want! (Yes I know that I *can* book online, but my plans are liable to change right until the point where I set foot in the station - buying at the station stops me wasting money)

On what basis / in what way are they being awkward about selling tickets that you request?

They are obliged to sell any ticket you ask for, and are obliged to sell impartially. There is no requirement for them to tell to that a cheaper ticket (or combination of tickets) exists, but, if you have done your homework and ask for specific tickets which results in a cheaper journey, they cannot refuse to sell you those tickets.

 

[tony_mac]

they cannot refuse to sell you those tickets.

meanwhile, in the real world.....

According to other reports, it happens reasonably frequently - staff have been known to refuse to sell tickets based on trying to prevent fraud; either real or imaginary!

 

[maniacmartin]

Indeed. Only recently a suburban London station's ticket office said they could only sell tickets with an origin of that station.

 

[Jeni]

On what basis / in what way are they being awkward about selling tickets that you request?

"You cannot complete that journey today"
"If you want a ticket to Birmingham, get a ticket to Birmingham"
"I can only sell tickets from Stockport"
"You've got a gap in your journey, I can't sell you these two tickets unless you buy one for the middle" (there is no gap, they just don't understand the routing of the main ticket)

They are obliged to sell any ticket you ask for, and are obliged to sell impartially. There is no requirement for them to tell to that a cheaper ticket (or combination of tickets) exists, but, if you have done your homework and ask for specific tickets which results in a cheaper journey, they cannot refuse to sell you those tickets.

Obligations and what happens in the real world are two different things.

 

[Starmill]

"You cannot complete that journey today"
"If you want a ticket to Birmingham, get a ticket to Birmingham"
"I can only sell tickets from Stockport"
"You've got a gap in your journey, I can't sell you these two tickets unless you buy one for the middle" (there is no gap, they just don't understand the routing of the main ticket)

Highly typical of Virgin's ticket clerks, some of them have awful superiority complexes.

 

[Jeni]

I have been known to just end up buying my tickets on the train, I constitute a difficult ticket clerk as not having an opportunity to buy the ticket that I want. Each time this has happened, the XC TM has happily sold me the tickets I want.

 

[Greenback]

I'm disappointed this this sort of thing is still prevalent. I encountered this myself when working on the railway many years ago, and sent quite a bit of my time explaining the responsibilities of a clerk under the then relatively new impartial retailing requirements.

Yes, there is a reasonable expectation sometimes that your plans will be questioned, but that should only be with a view to ensuring that the passenger is aware of any restrictions that might be encountered in using the ticket they have requested. If there is a gap it is reasonable to ask how the passenger is going to fill that gap, but it should not be a reason to decline if they passenger insists on buying the ticket and gives a reasonable explanation, such as the routeing is permitted, they are getting a lift, catching a bus, already have a ticket for that section, or whatever.

It isn't the responsibility of retail staff to act as if they are on train revenue inspectors!

 

[Starmill]

I've tried to tell some clerks that impartial retailing obliges them to sell me the ticket I want, but that they may wish to explain restrictions in more detail in some cases, or mark tickets with 'Restrictions Advised' or similar, while pointing out that it is my responsibility to ensure I am using valid tickets for any and all journeys I make. You can imagine how well that went down...

I try to visit the ticket office at Manchester Oxford Road now instead of Piccadilly, they are much more likely to sell whatever you ask for without batting an eyelid!

 

[Jeni]

Highly typical of Virgin's ticket clerks, some of them have awful superiority complexes.

I'd like to stress that there are some amazing Virgin clerks out there, despite only making my "commute" 2 or 3 times a month, there is one lady at Manchester who sees me coming and gets my tickets ready for me - in general she couldn't be nicer!

I guess it helps that I'm quite an unusual and distinctive person, most railway staff that I encounter more than once generally recognise me, even if it's by sight only.

 

[island]

Highly typical of Virgin's ticket clerks, some of them have awful superiority complexes.

True actually. I once went to the booking office at Euston and handed over the return portion of a Northampton to London Terminals off-peak return asking for a seat reservation on the next Monday's 0810 Euston to Bangor as far as Milton Keynes C (which is a Voyager and invariably stuffed to the gills). The clerk spent a couple of minutes faffing about with his terminal before handing my ticket back with a triumphant "this ticket isn't valid before 0845".

A heated discussion ensued, but I did leave the booking office with the desired reservation.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....They are obliged to sell any ticket you ask for....

....but, if you have done your homework and ask for specific tickets which results in a cheaper journey, they cannot refuse to sell you those tickets.

Source?

 

[yorkie]

Source?

Will the TSA do? http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/

6-14 LEAD RETAILERS' OBLIGATIONS IN RESPECT OF BASIC PRODUCTS
(1) Basic Products available at the date of this Agreement
Subject to sub-Clause (2) and Clauses 6-17 to 6-19 below, the Lead Retailer at each Regulated Station must offer for Sale at that Station during its opening hours:-

(a) all Permanent Fares which are Basic Products and which relate to the Flows that are listed in those Fares Manuals in existence at the date of this Agreement that are specified in Schedule 17 against the name of that Station (and any new Flows listed in any Fares Manuals that replace them, to the extent that they cover the same or substantially the same geographical areas);​

​

 

[pennine]

Will the TSA do? http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/

Some passenger charters also state about 'Impartial Selling'. Well worth a read!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Will the TSA do? http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/governance/

[/INDENT]

That quote says 'must offer for sale', it does not say to whom it must be offered, nor does it say that a sale cannot be refused.

The literal interpretation of that quote would read that every passenger must be offered every ticket, but I don't think anyone would welcome a clerk trying to bankrupt them! (nevermind the time it would take to do so)

Care to try again?

 

[yorkie]

I will turn that around and say if you can give examples of any ticket office refusing to sell a permanent, basic product, tell me who is doing that, and I'll make sure the malpractice stops.

So if you think the obligations do not apply, let me know where such a refusal may take place, and I'll arrange for some 'mystery shopping' and we'll see what the outcome is, shall we?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Some passenger charters also state about 'Impartial Selling'. Well worth a read!

You might have point them out to me. South West Trains notes....

"....Our ticket office staff will sell you the most suitable ticket for
your journey, including railcards and reservations...."

First Great Western notes....

"....You can buy a full range of tickets from any First Great Western sales office.
When buying a ticket we promise to give you fair and impartial information...."

Virgin Trains is pretty much silent on the issue....

"....We want tickets to be easy to buy. Tickets for Virgin Trains journeys
can be bought online at virgintrains.com. Tickets can also be
bought by calling Virgin Trains on 0871 977 4222, at stations, and
from rail appointed travel agents and we will sell impartially where
we are the operator of such outlets....."

East Coast states....

"....Our staff will always provide impartial advice and help you
choose the most appropriate ticket for your journey. They can
give you information, assistance, tickets and reservations for
train services across the National Rail network....."

Southern doesn't come close to saying it.....

"....Our staff will always provide impartial advice and help you
choose the most appropriate ticket for your journey. They can
give you information, assistance, tickets and reservations for
train services across the National Rail network....."

As for Northern, well....

"....We will serve you in an impartial, accurate and efficient
way. We will always try to sell you the most appropriate
ticket for your journey whether or not you are travelling
on Northern services....."

Scotrail might actually be quite close, yet I think it's still lacking that certain something....

"....We aim to provide a quick and easy ticketing service, and
we will always endeavour to sell you the most appropriate
ticket to meet your needs....."

First Capital connect isn't bad either, but still not what people seem to think....

"....The ticket office at our stations can sell you the full range
of tickets from that station to any other National Rail
station. Many of our stations can also sell tickets to travel
from other National Rail stations. When selling a ticket we
promise to give you fair and impartial information and to
sell you the most appropriate ticket for your journey...."

Crosscountry don't have any ticket offices, so, like Grand Central and First Hull Trains, their charter simply states....

"....You can buy tickets at most stations, either at the ticket office where
the station has ticket staff, or from self-service ticket machines...."

Southeastern is quite clever with the wording, but again it's not an obligation to sell the ticket you ask for....

"....All Southeastern ticket offices offer a wide range of National Rail tickets. We’ll always sell you the ticket that most suits your needs, regardless of whether or not you’re travelling on our trains....."

Chiltern don't seem to like the subject, offering up only....

"..... Our ticket offices offer a full range of National Rail tickets...."

The English version of the ATW charter doesn't really say anything on the subject, infact it's so bland that I'm struggling with a quote, I assume the Welsh version is the same (my Welsh is a little rusty). EMT and c2c are also silent on the matter.

Greater Anglia isn't bad, but again no obligation to sell.....

"....You can buy the full range of tickets from our staffed ticket offices including Railcards, as well as book assisted travel...."

Transpennine Express.....

"....You can buy a full range of tickets and make seat reservations from
the ticket offices at First TransPennine Express stations or from our
website – www.tpexpress.co.uk....."

London Midland fall short too....

"....If you want to discuss your travel options face to
face, our ticket office staff will help you choose the
most appropriate ticket for your journey and make
seat reservations if available. All our advice is
impartial, so we will only recommend travelling
with London Midland if it’s right for you...."

I might have missed one? Maybe I'm not looking in the right places?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I will turn that around and say if you can give examples of any ticket office refusing to sell a permanent, basic product, tell me who is doing that, and I'll make sure the malpractice stops.

So if you think the obligations do not apply, let me know where such a refusal may take place, and I'll arrange for some 'mystery shopping' and we'll see what the outcome is, shall we?

If you can't provide a source I fail to see how I can provide an example of someone going against it? Can you provide a source?

I cannot say 'an obligation' does or does not apply if I do not know of it's existence. Show me where this obligation is written and I will assess it, honestly, on it's merits.

 

[yorkie]

If you believe someone isn't adhering to my interpretation of the TSA, then tell me where I can find someone refusing to sell tickets as described, and I will take appropriate action.

If you can't, then what's the fuss about?!

 

[Starmill]

That quote says 'must offer for sale', it does not say to whom it must be offered, nor does it say that a sale cannot be refused.

The literal interpretation of that quote would read that every passenger must be offered every ticket, but I don't think anyone would welcome a clerk trying to bankrupt them! (nevermind the time it would take to do so)

My bold: what an utterly insane interpretation.


And what a bloody daft argument. How can 'must offer for sale' leave any room for 'refusal to sell'? Why would it make reference to whom tickets must be sold? Is there anyone who has access to a ticket office who must not be sold a ticket?


And thank you for trawling all of those passengers charters for us, most of the do indeed mention what was actually said about them, which is that retailing must be impartial.

 

[PG]

That quote says 'must offer for sale', it does not say to whom it must be offered, nor does it say that a sale cannot be refused.

The literal interpretation of that quote would read that every passenger must be offered every ticket, but I don't think anyone would welcome a clerk trying to bankrupt them! (nevermind the time it would take to do so)

Care to try again?

Again from the TSA SCHEDULE 43 CRITERIA FOR APPLICATION OF RESERVE POWERS which to my mind backs up what yorkie and Baxenden Bank have already posted.

2. Specific Criteria
2.1 Withholding of commission to be specifically considered where:
- evidence exists of partial Selling by an Operator.
- an Operator wilfully and persistently fails/refuses to carry out Improvement Action.
- an Operator refuses to Sell any products which it is obliged to Sell under its Schedule 17 obligations except where it was due to circumstances outside its control.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you believe someone isn't adhering to my interpretation of the TSA, then tell me where I can find someone refusing to sell tickets as described, and I will take appropriate action.

If you can't, then what's the fuss about?!

Is that an admission that you can't provide a source?

About 10 am on New Year's Day this year a man was sold a ticket that he asked for, there was no reason not to, he asked if he could wait for his train in the booking hall and the clerk agreed, the man sat down and soon fell asleep, missing his train. When he awoke an hour later, he asked to buy a ticket and the clerk refused, stating that the man already had one. The man insisted he needed a ticket because he hadn't yet bought one, again the clerk refused because he had one. The man produced a ticket, argued that it was one he had bought yesterday and asked again for one to go home, the clerk again refused, telling him that the ticket the man produced was the one he had sold an hour ago. The man left the station, of his own will, in the direction of the taxi rank and did not return.

I'm sure you will tell us all that the clerk was wrong to refuse the sale and should be retrained (or sacked) immediately.:roll:

Imagine the discussion when the man realises he had already bought a ticket and the clerk blindly sold another one "because he is obliged to", clerks fault again no doubt.......:roll:

My bold: what an utterly insane interpretation....

I agree, but I only add it as a way of looking at the TSA which is not the same as Yorkie's interpretation, one of many ways I am sure.

A previous discussion on this point led to Yorkie quoting the Retail Standards Guide in an attempt to back his point of view. The Retail Standards Guide attempts to simplify the TSA for staff. It was soon pointed out that the Guide itself notes that there are other interpretations of the TSA.

....And what a bloody daft argument. How can 'must offer for sale' leave any room for 'refusal to sell'? Why would it make reference to whom tickets must be sold? Is there anyone who has access to a ticket office who must not be sold a ticket?....

Morrisons 'offer to sell' a bottle of milk for £1. They are not required to sell that milk. Ticket offices are required to 'offer to sell' a ticket, but where is the obligation to sell?

....And thank you for trawling all of those passengers charters for us, most of the do indeed mention what was actually said about them, which is that retailing must be impartial.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were pointing to (I blame tiredness), impartiality is not the same as an obligation to sell.

Again from the TSA SCHEDULE 43 CRITERIA FOR APPLICATION OF RESERVE POWERS which to my mind backs up what yorkie and Baxenden Bank have already posted.

2. Specific Criteria
2.1 Withholding of commission to be specifically considered where:
- evidence exists of partial Selling by an Operator.
- an Operator wilfully and persistently fails/refuses to carry out Improvement Action.
- an Operator refuses to Sell any products which it is obliged to Sell under its Schedule 17 obligations except where it was due to circumstances outside its control.

I'm not certain partial selling can be seen as refusing to sell a ticket as such, but I can see an argument there. I'm not convinced this is evidence on it's own, but maybe with more details from within the document it might add up to more.

The is no definition of partial selling or impartial selling in the definitions of the TSA that I can see, there is "Impartial point of sales", which apparently are points of sale that are not 'dedicated points of sale', and there is a "dedicated point of sales" which apparently are points of sale that "does not give impartial advice about Rail Products, or Sell Rail Products on an impartial basis".

Most dictionaries define impartial as "treating all rivals or disputants equally" and this has little or nothing to do with the point of an 'obligation to sell'.

As for the second bold bit, do we have any evidence of what the seller is actually obliged to sell? This is the key point, because I haven't seen it yet. If all we have is Yorkie's quote then I'm not convinced in the slightest. AFAIAA, Schedule 17 is just a list of stations and exemptions from the TSA (and not very well written exemptions either!).

 

[maniacmartin]

I can't believe this discussion is even happening. In my view, the TSA is very clear that all basic fares must be offered for sale. A lot of the charter quotes above refer to the 'full range'. I take the full range to mean at least all of the basic fares as defined in the TSA.

I think there is a distinction between being able to purchase any ticket if you specifically ask for it, and any ticket being recommended. I class 'offer for sale' as the former.

 

[Flamingo]

On a morning train I work, some of the stations have no ticket machine or TVM. There is a popular split, and if I am asked for it, I sell it (advising restrictions if appropriate). If I'm not asked for it, I don't suggest it, and don't feel any obligation to.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I know people hate retail analogies but…

If I go into a high street retail outlet, I can ask advice of the staff which is the best product to buy, or (having done my research first) I can simply pick the item off the shelf, walk to the till, and pay for it. Generally I would not get any grief from the shop assistant (buying a TV would be an exception where they are obliged to grass you to TV licencing). OK, perhaps they may ask ‘if I found everything I wanted today’ or ‘would I like rip-off extended warranty and theft insurance with that HDMI lead’ or whatever.

If I go into a rail ticket office, I can ask advice of the staff which is the best ticket to buy, or (having done my research first) I can simply ask for the ticket, and pay for it. A good ticket clerk, knowing that the fares system is rather complicated, may well wish to ensure that I am buying the correct ticket for my needs. That’s fine, but at the end of the day, he should (legally must) sell me what I ask for so long as it is a genuine product. If I wish to buy a single from Thurso to Georgemas Junction at Penzance ticket office, it is my right to do so. It is none of his business why I am doing that. If I am asking for a complex set of tickets, it should be fairly obvious that I have done my homework and know what I want with no further advice required.

The purpose of a retail outlet is to retail products. A ticket office is a retail outlet for railway products. I am a willing buyer of those products – why make it difficult and make me feel bad about buying those products?

The company operating a ticket office receives a good commission on the products sold. Trying to sell me something more expensive than I require is, being charitable, poor practice. Doing so knowingly and intentionally is heading towards ‘fraud’ (legal people insert the correct crime name). If I ask for a return from A to B, they should sell me that ticket – it is what I asked for, buyer beware applies. If I ask for the cheapest way, by train, from A to B, and the cheapest tickets are split, if they know about it then they should offer me those split tickets.

Put it another way, if I go to the station on successive days and buy a peak return ticket from A to B, would / should the ticket office advise me that a season ticket would work out cheaper? The railway loses revenue as a result, but I am a happier customer because my travel is cheaper, I think good things about the railway, and I tell my friends how wonderful it is that the ticket office helped me to save money. The opposite is what the Daily Mail thrives on.

To those of you who say ‘out there in the real world’ or similar. You need to assert your rights, otherwise they will be slowly but surely diminished until the ‘walk-up’, ‘valid by all operators’, ‘acceptance by other operators during disruption’ railway disappears.

Indeed. Only recently a suburban London station's ticket office said they could only sell tickets with an origin of that station.

Did anyone complain, what was the outcome?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

"You cannot complete that journey today"
"If you want a ticket to Birmingham, get a ticket to Birmingham"
"I can only sell tickets from Stockport"
"You've got a gap in your journey, I can't sell you these two tickets unless you buy one for the middle" (there is no gap, they just don't understand the routing of the main ticket).

All of which are incorrect. Please complain and let the world know the outcome.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Generally I would not get any grief from the shop assistant (buying a TV would be an exception where they are obliged to grass you to TV licencing).

That's actually a very good analogy. The law forcing them to ask for the details, and pass them on to Crapita, was repealed last year, but some still do so. I would hope they wouldn't refuse a sale.

 

[maniacmartin]

Did anyone complain, what was the outcome?

I have given up complaining with some TOCs. In this case I ended up buying the ticket from a different TOC's ticket office instead