XC Reservations

[dvboy]

'may be reserved later' is fine if you're at the origin station, but useless onwards

 

[yorksrob]

Without the barriers or technology, this is uncannily similiar to the sytem in use on longer distance trains in Sweden. Some are fully reservable, some are not.

On the former when you book a ticket for immediate travel (from TVM or ticket office) you automatically get allocated a reserved seat. On the latter you can request a reserved seat for a small fee. On the train itself, which could have been on the move for some time before you board, there are no reservation labels or displays.

On the second type of train there will be at least one coach advertised on the screens as unreserved. If you sit here you know you are safe for the duration of your journey. If you sit elsewhere without a reservation you run the risk of being turfed out after any stop.

The major downside is that if the fully reserverable train is indeed fully booked you can't get a ticket for it. I would hope the onboard staff have some way of indicating a no show to free up the seat down the line, but do not know whether that is, in fact, the case.

I thought the Swedes were supposed to be sensible !

What is the point of having some trains that have no unreservable seats and some that do !

If you're going to have any sort of walk on travel at all (which IMO is pretty sensible sinse you'd be cutting out a fairly significant and cash rich market if you didn't) you may as well have an unreserved section on each train.

 

[Simon11]

If you managed to fill the whole train with advances which have a higher yield more than walk-up, then what is the issue?

 

[Goatboy]

If you managed to fill the whole train with advances which have a higher yield more than walk-up, then what is the issue?

The issue is that our rail network isn't run with compulsory reservations and neither should it be, therefore filling an entire train with advance tickets is ridiculous - especially as many people may be traveling on journeys for which there are no advance fares available.

 

[Roverman]

Due to the 10:01 running mega late I ended up using an LM to Stoke and a VT from Stoke to Piccadilly so can't comment on how busy it was versus the lack of reservable seat. A Bonus was spotting retail guru Mary Portas on the VT!

For the return leg I decided to chance my arm and text reserve a seat on the 15:27 even though when booking I'd been told there were no seats left to reserve, imagine my surprise when a reply came back saying I could have Seat 40A!

When I did get on the train I also noticed a large abundance of 'Available' seats as well as the dreaded 'Available but Reservable En Route' so I am unsure as to why when I booked the tickets the system said there were no seats left!

 

[Simon11]

There are still seats in a 4 car voyager which are always available. In the 5 car, you also have coach B completely unreserved.

 

[Goatboy]

There are still seats in a 4 car voyager which are always available.

These are the ones at the end of the coach which must number perhaps 2-4 per coach max?

 

[yorksrob]

If you managed to fill the whole train with advances which have a higher yield more than walk-up, then what is the issue?

I suppose that if you could produce enough yield by turning all of the trains into an advanced purchase only budget railway sort of operation, then you wouldn't need the higher paying walk up market. However, I expect these passengers are quite an important source of revenue, and by it's nature the walk on market needs to be accommodated on all services, not just some.

Of course, fewer unreserved seats isn't such of a problem if you can see from the start of the trip exactly where the seat is reserved from - but this seems to be passe in this age of modern technology !

 

[Roverman]

I suppose that if you could produce enough yield by turning all of the trains into an advanced purchase only budget railway sort of operation, then you wouldn't need the higher paying walk up market. However, I expect these passengers are quite an important source of revenue, and by it's nature the walk on market needs to be accommodated on all services, not just some.

Of course, fewer unreserved seats isn't such of a problem if you can see from the start of the trip exactly where the seat is reserved from - but this seems to be passe in this age of modern technology !

I don't think its possible to buy enough Advance tickets to fill one train, even if it is a 4 coach Voyager! I don't think they release enough to do that.

I agree with you yorksrob, although I would go further than passe and say its logical as well!

 

[tony_mac]

XC do keep back reservations for (overpriced) Advance tickets.

For example, the 17:00 Bristol to Cheltenham on Thursday.
You can buy an off-peak ticket for £8.40, but you can't get a reservation.
If you want a reservation then you can spend £10.50 on an Advance ticket.

I also think the (few) seats for 'last minute reservations' are not part of the normal quota - so even when a train is fully reserved the text reservations are available.

 

[calc7]

XC do keep back reservations for (overpriced) Advance tickets.

For example, the 17:00 Bristol to Cheltenham on Thursday.
You can buy an off-peak ticket for £8.40, but you can't get a reservation.
If you want a reservation then you can spend £10.50 on an Advance ticket.

I also think the (few) seats for 'last minute reservations' are not part of the normal quota - so even when a train is fully reserved the text reservations are available.

So, in other words, it's an absolute farce.

 

[83G/84D]

Just another shambolic episode in the running of XC by Arriva.They also keep mentioning that the 4 HST's are to be withdrawn, the only trains with decent capacity! They should take over the East Coast and MML sets when they are replaced not get rid of the one's they have got.

The frontline staff are decent people and are trying their best, however this issue with reservations along with overcrowded 4 or 5 carriage Voyagers on a daily basis (going fromthe North of England to the South West) just adds to the unpleasant experience of travelling by Cross Country.

I haven't even mentioned uncomfortable, cramped seats and smelly toilets!

I can but hope that when the franchise is renewed next time round we get decent length trains (6 cars minimum) with plenty of luggage space, toilets that don't smell and a reservation system that works properly.

Too much to ask for? Probably.

 

[Goatboy]

They also keep mentioning that the 4 HST's are to be withdrawn, the only trains with decent capacity!

Surely not?!!

How will they have sufficient stock to cover all diagrams without them? Is this just a rumour?

 

[CC 72100]

Surely not?!!

How will they have sufficient stock to cover all diagrams without them? Is this just a rumour?

It's the first I've heard of it, so I would suspect it is just a rumour, but XC are hardly well known for their logical approach to things!

 

[calc7]

Don't they only have 2 HSTs out most days? So it would just require un-doubling 2 Voyager services?

 

[CC 72100]

Don't they only have 2 HSTs out most days? So it would just require un-doubling 2 Voyager services?

At the moment: 2 Tuesday - Thursday and Saturday, 3 Monday, friday and Sunday. 4 in summer and run up to Christmas. They'd be stupid to get rid of the extra capacity, oh wait, this is XC we're talknig about....

 

[ValleyLines142]

As much as I love CrossCountry, I must also agree that their reservation system really is an absolute shambles. Caught the 1654 from Bristol Parkway to Exeter on Friday and was reserved in Coach F Seat 16. As I guessed (I could have put money on it!!), the reservation system went tits up and all seats were available. Rubbish. So unfortunately I had evict someone out of my seat; it was like Big Brother. Pretty dire.

Returned on the 1822 from Exeter on Sunday, again booked in F16. Once again, reservations system went wild. All saying available. So once again I had to evict someone from my seat. I was really surprised by how busy the train was; it was a 9-car unit, formed of 220029 and 221120. This was 1E73 1530 Penzance to Gloucester but due to a broken-down train at Bodmin it ended up leaving Liskeard almost two hours late, so a new portion started from Plymouth; therefore not sure whether it was booked for nine coaches. Even so it was heaving. There was another seat opposite me, but it was one of those absolutely dire seats that has that horrible wall between the two windows where, to put it politely, you can see bugger all and it does make you feel very claustrophobic. I don't like those seats either as the windows are designed to curve around you so with an extra wall sticking out you're effectively sitting at an angle. I could have (if I wanted to) sat there, but that could have been bloody reserved for all I knew!

Something really has to be sorted, especially at weekends and peak times.

 

[83G/84D]

Surely not?!!

How will they have sufficient stock to cover all diagrams without them? Is this just a rumour?

Nothing definate but keeps getting mentioned by staff I speak to.

 

[AlexS]

If it's not marked as reserved on the train, unfortunately you have no right to 'evict' someone from the seat. If you are unable to find any seat at all you may be able to claim compensation from the train operator in accordance with their passenger charter.

 

[yorkie]

Once again, reservations system went wild. All saying available. So once again I had to evict someone from my seat.

You have no right to do this. See Do I need to give up my seat?

How can you evict someone from a seat that is, by your own admission, "available" and not reserved?

I'd also be interested to know how the eviction conversation went.

 

[talltim]

I had (I think) another variation last night. Got on at Sheffield and I'm sure the seat said. Available, reserved from Sheffield (to somewhere). I sat in it anyway.

 

[ValleyLines142]

You have no right to do this. See Do I need to give up my seat?

Why so? Obviously, it's not what I want to do, but at the same time, there could be the argument of why I should have to stand for 1 hour and 20 minutes even though I have a reserved seat. Why should I lose my rights?

How can you evict someone from a seat that is, by your own admission, "available" and not reserved?

Because unfortunately, to put it bluntly, it is not my fault that XC's reservation has gone belly up. It sounds harsh, I know, but it is true. I'm travelling at Peak Time, so I've used my common sense and reserved a seat knowing that it will be a busy train.

I'd also be interested to know how the eviction conversation went.

There was nothing wrong, much to your disappointment I'm sure I showed the passenger my reservation ticket as evidence that it was my seat, and she apologised (not that she had anything to apologise for; at the end of the day this is XC's fault, which I did mention to her), she smiled and moved to another seat, and she even wished me a pleasant journey. Simples.

If someone is sat in my seat, I will show them my ticket to prove to them. Likewise, if I was sat in someone's seat, I would ask to see their ticket, as a few shady businessmen (sorry to stereotype; I know it sounds rather rude but unfortunately it is true) have previously on the Cardiff to Bristol route tried and con me and/or other passengers into believing I'm sat in their seat, when in actual fact it's unreserved and I, just as much as any other passenger, have every right to sit there.

 

[johnb]

Why so? Obviously, it's not what I want to do, but at the same time, there could be the argument of why I should have to stand for 1 hour and 20 minutes even though I have a reserved seat. Why should I lose my rights?

Because that's what the Conditions of Carriage say.

A person is only breaking the rules by occupying a reserved seat if there is a notice (electronic or printed, but not including your confirmation printout) that the seat is reserved. If there is no such notice, they are not breaking the rules.

The person with the reservation can complain to the train operator, and might get some kind of refund if there are no seats at all, but the person in the seat has no obligation to move and the guard/TM has no right to move him.

By all means lobby ATOC to change the rules, but that's what they currently are - if reservations fail, the person with the seat has the right to keep it. Morality and contract and everything else you mention is irrelevant: that is how the railway works.

Of course, you have the right to ask the person if they voluntarily want to renounce their seat because you have a worthless piece of paper saying it's yours. But they have no obligation to agree. Assuming you're able-bodied, I certainly wouldn't.

 

[junglejames]

I travelled on XC last wednesday for the first time in ages and saw these messages. I too thought the system lacked flexibility.

Having said that at least XC have moved on from paper tickets like you have on FGW. You should see the chaos when traincrew have to turn a staff round quickly and there isnt enough time to put out new reservation tickets - and you get a standoff between passenger in 'unreserved' seat and traveller who has a reservation for it.

But its this electronic system that is allowing the people in charge to make daft changes. Like the one mentioned in this thread. If it was a normal paper system, they wouldnt be able to do this.
Oh, and whats better. Arguments between passengers once in a blue moon, or on every single train? Because thats what you will get now.

The electronic system is stupid even when it first came out. Its too difficult to see when a seat is reserved. With paper tickets, you can look down a coach and straight away see what its like. Or, if you still need to look at the tickets, you could see straight away where it was reserved from and too. With the voyagers, you had to wait until the small screen scrolled round to the station names. All in all trawling through a whole coach would take twice the time, if not much longer.

Now it sounds like it has turned into the most rediculous system known to man. Virgin tried to turn the railways into an airline. They ended up ruining them. Now Arriva have carried on with Virgins work. It really is about time Arriva and the voyagers were shown the arrival line into Booths.

 

[IanD]

Because that's what the Conditions of Carriage say.

A person is only breaking the rules by occupying a reserved seat if there is a notice (electronic or printed, but not including your confirmation printout) that the seat is reserved. If there is no such notice, they are not breaking the rules.

The person with the reservation can complain to the train operator, and might get some kind of refund if there are no seats at all, but the person in the seat has no obligation to move and the guard/TM has no right to move him.

By all means lobby ATOC to change the rules, but that's what they currently are - if reservations fail, the person with the seat has the right to keep it. Morality and contract and everything else you mention is irrelevant: that is how the railway works.

Of course, you have the right to ask the person if they voluntarily want to renounce their seat because you have a worthless piece of paper saying it's yours. But they have no obligation to agree. Assuming you're able-bodied, I certainly wouldn't.

"but not including your confirmation printout" - and this is stated where?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You have no right to do this. See Do I need to give up my seat?

How can you evict someone from a seat that is, by your own admission, "available" and not reserved?

I'd also be interested to know how the eviction conversation went.

But it's just your opinion, other people's opinion is that you have every right to do this.

There seems to be nothing written officially to prove whose opinion is correct.

 

[johnb]

"but not including your confirmation printout" - and this is stated where?

Bylaw 19:

Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in
any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is
reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class,
except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.

A piece of paper being waved by an angry chap is clearly not a "notice" in the sense intended, and nobody with even a passing acquaintance with the English language could describe it as such. A notice is displayed by an authority to the public, not given to a private individual to hold in his wallet.

 

[IanD]

Bylaw 19:



A piece of paper being waved by an angry chap is clearly not a "notice" in the sense intended, and nobody with even a passing acquaintance with the English language could describe it as such. A notice is displayed by an authority to the public, not given to a private individual to hold in his wallet.

Again, your interpretation of both the byelaw and the definition of the word notice. You have no way of knowing what the intended meaning of the writer of this was - you're just guessing what he/she intended to say. You may be right, you may be wrong - that's the nature of guesswork.

We often see on the Fares forum that someone has received a 'Notice of intention to prosecute'. That is an official notice but I bet not many people would stick it up somewhere for everyone to see but would probably hide it in their wallet.

 

[Bill EWS]

I have been to Aberdeen twice since September and in each case, in both directions , the XC train's reservation system has been down. Has the system been down for four months?

The XC trains I used were from Oxford to Wolverhampton then to Edinburgh and in return from York to Oxford. Not complaining about the service, it is very fast for the distance involved, in both directions. Just wonderd about the reservation system being down yet again.

 

[Welshman]

As much as I love CrossCountry, I must also agree that their reservation system really is an absolute shambles. Caught the 1654 from Bristol Parkway to Exeter on Friday and was reserved in Coach F Seat 16. As I guessed (I could have put money on it!!), the reservation system went tits up and all seats were available. Rubbish. So unfortunately I had evict someone out of my seat; it was like Big Brother. Pretty dire.

I fully agree with you that XC's current system seems a shambles. However, I'm afraid if you tried evicting me from my seat in such circumstances, you would fail!

I once travelled from Crewe to Glasgow on VT, and sat in a seat marked "available" only to find two thugs boarding at Preston, claiming I was in their seat and demanding I move.

I hate bully-boy tactics, so explained quietly that the reservations had not been put up, so all seats were "available" They then became extremely abusive and threatened to report me to the conductor, and I rememer saying I wished they would. When she eventually appeared on a ticket-check north of Lancaster, she listened to their protests, shrugged her shoulders, and walked away! I tried not to look too smug, and they made some comments under their breath about her competency.

My reward for staying my ground was their staring at me all the way to Glasgow. Not one of my more relaxing journeys!

The point is, whilst I fully sympathise with your frustrations, your tactics don't really help. If I find "my" reserved seat is taken by someone else, I'll quietly sit elsewhere. If no other seat is available, or, in the case of XC's current stupid practices, if I couldn't be sure that seat I'd found was available past the next station, I'd protest directly to the Train Manager. I did this once with EC, and got up-graded to First-Class!

 

[ValleyLines142]

Because that's what the Conditions of Carriage say.

A person is only breaking the rules by occupying a reserved seat if there is a notice (electronic or printed, but not including your confirmation printout) that the seat is reserved. If there is no such notice, they are not breaking the rules.

The person with the reservation can complain to the train operator, and might get some kind of refund if there are no seats at all, but the person in the seat has no obligation to move and the guard/TM has no right to move him.

By all means lobby ATOC to change the rules, but that's what they currently are - if reservations fail, the person with the seat has the right to keep it. Morality and contract and everything else you mention is irrelevant: that is how the railway works.

Of course, you have the right to ask the person if they voluntarily want to renounce their seat because you have a worthless piece of paper saying it's yours. But they have no obligation to agree. Assuming you're able-bodied, I certainly wouldn't.

To me, and forgive me if I'm wrong, this seems to be the case for services that have non-reserveable seats, not whether or not the reservation system has failed.

A piece of paper being waved by an angry chap is clearly not a "notice" in the sense intended.

Thanks.......:cry:

I hate bully-boy tactics, so explained quietly that the reservations had not been put up, so all seats were "available" They then became extremely abusive and threatened to report me to the conductor, and I rememer saying I wished they would. When she eventually appeared on a ticket-check north of Lancaster, she listened to their protests, shrugged her shoulders, and walked away! I tried not to look too smug, and they made some comments under their breath about her competency.

Not that I'm saying that's what you're implying, but I certainly wouldn't be abusive. I'd be frustrated, to say the least, especially if I was doing a long-distance journey such as London to Glasgow.

However, just for discussion purposes, imagine this. What if I had paid £5 for a seat reservation (which, according to some on here, some TOC's do charge) which I suddenly lost because the reservation system failed? Would this realistically be deemed fair?

"but not including your confirmation printout" - and this is stated where?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But it's just your opinion, other people's opinion is that you have every right to do this.

There seems to be nothing written officially to prove whose opinion is correct.

I agree. I'd also like to see officially where this is stated in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

I did this once with EC, and got up-graded to First-Class!

I'd love to be upgraded to First Class if I lost my seat reservation! In fact, I think that's pretty reasonable, to be fair!

The point is, whilst I fully sympathise with your frustrations, your tactics don't really help. If I find "my" reserved seat is taken by someone else, I'll quietly sit elsewhere. If no other seat is available, or, in the case of XC's current stupid practices, if I couldn't be sure that seat I'd found was available past the next station, I'd protest directly to the Train Manager. I did this once with EC, and got up-graded to First-Class!

What tactics are these that you're implying?

That's a fair point regarding sitting elsewhere, but what if they're reserved too and we don't know about it?

Well done for getting an upgrade to First Class!