XC plan

[Alex27]

Cross country is in need of some investment, the voyagers aren't bad trains but (under normal circumstances) don't have enough capacity to meet the demand.

I think an ideal (if somewhat unlikely) solution would be to electrify between coventry and didcot (tying in with the GWR services to Oxford being run fully electric), and reading West and basingstoke. A new fleet of dual voltage trains (perhaps a version of the 80x, something similar to SE's javelin or something new). This would increase capacity on Manchester - South Coast services with larger trains (9 car sets or two 5 car sets joined), whilst freeing up voyagers to increase capacity on other routes by doubling up to create 8/9 carriage trains (such as are being run at the moment)

I know this is all wishful thinking, and unlikely to happen, but I don't think it's completely impossible (at least I hope not!)
P.S apologies if this has been suggested before

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The problem is that electrification takes time. Capacity etc solutions are needed sooner.

 

[Alex27]

True, but I think it would be a waste to get more bi-modes rather than doing things properly (Not that I've got a solution)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well bimodes that are specified at the start to be very easily upgraded to all electric at a later date.

 

[HST43257]

True, but I think it would be a waste to get more bi-modes rather than doing things properly (Not that I've got a solution)

Waiting for electrification to be fully complete is pointless. Give the line some electrifcstion ASAP to start then keep going with other parts while electric is being used on some. Eventually, you have a fully electrified line and the diesel can help if you have a non electrified diversion line. IETs capable of operation under Third Rail, Overhead and Battery/Hydrogen power would be good with lengths of 7 and 9 cars would be good in my opinion.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

XC are 15 years away from being able to run all-electric services on the central section of the network (roughly Bristol to Edinburgh) and another 15 years from being able to run all-electric services across the entire network, there's large gaps between electrified sections currently (and it's worse than it appears, for XC nothing between Bromsgrove and Birmingham NS is wired) which means bi-modes just don't make sense yet.

It pains me to say that, of course, and it pains me to suggest sending more Super Voyagers and Meridians to XC, but that's what to do whilst we get on with various electrification schemes that need the OK from DfT sooner rather than later.

 

[Neptune]

I‘m sure there’s many other threads regarding XC capacity. It seems to come up on here very regularly.

 

[tbtc]

Part of the problem with the business case for wiring up bits of XC is the hourly nature of the services, and the fact that some interwork.

At the moment, only one branch of the "X" is electrified (Birmingham - Manchester), so no electric trains can be used.

But if you spend the money electrifying the "gaps" on the Bournemouth route, that'd be only one train per hour moving to electric traction (Bournemouth - Manchester), and that interworks with the Manchester - Bristol (Exeter etc) service, so you'd have to find platform space at Piccadilly to give each XC service an extra half hour there - not easy at a busy terminus.

The alternative would be to run the southbound services half an hour later (so that the northbound service from Bournemouth now took the path of a southbound Bournemouth service) but then that may mean swapping the paths through Leeds (e.g. there's only one path per hour through Leeds, so if you can't swap the southbound services to pass through Leeds at around xx:40 instead of the current xx:10ish then you'd end up with the southbound service becoming (Glasgow) Edinburgh - Leeds - Reading (Southampton) - i.e. lopsided services so that you can do Plymouth to Leeds but not Leeds to Plymouth.

My "solution" would be to simplify the services so that all Manchester trains went towards Reading and all Newcastle services went towards Bristol, which would improve the case for infrastructure on one side or the other - at the moment, the complexity of XC means that any investment would be a drop in the ocean with no real benefit until you've done hundreds of miles.

 

[MarkyT]

My suggestion would be a major half life rebuild of the voyager/meridian fleet for continued use by XC as follows:
1. Remove heavy outside frame bogies from tilt & ex-tilt 221s. Replace with B5000s like 220s & 222s. No more tilt on any part of the fleet. Weight saving more than 8 tonnes per vehicle.
2. Replace diesel engines with slightly smaller more modern units that are cleaner, quieter and specifically engineered for start stop operation.
3. Provision of a moderate quantity of traction battery storage on board each and every vehicle to create a new hybrid power configuration, able to run at high speed for long distance on diesel through the countryside as now but also to shut down and use batteries at slower speed through urban areas, whether electrified or not, and especially in confined environments like Birmingham. Able to capture and store braking energy and assist the diesel in acceleration.
4. As part of traction reengineering, finally solve the Dawlish sea spray problem satisfactorily by moving or better protecting the dynamic brake resistors, which should see less use anyway with energy able to be diverted into battery storage much of the time.
5. Comprehensive interior refit to common design standards.
6. Solve the toilet smell problem on afflicted units.

 

[Speed43125]

Are they currently using all 5 HST sets? I don't want to suggest they get more (I can think of a midland operator doing up a bunch of coaches and PCs but with little future use for them...), but after they got a 2 ex-LNER power cars it was suggested they could run all 5 sets, is that happening now?

 

[Stephen Lee]

My proposal:
AWC Class 221s and EMR Class 222s being cascaded to XC to replace HSTs as well as extra capacity in InterCity Routes
Meanwhile the HSTs will be shortened and then exchange with Class 158/170s from the SR Inter7City Network
Bring Bi-mode like Hitachi or Alternative Fuel Trains like class 600 if possible.

 

[Speed43125]

My proposal:
AWC Class 221s and EMR Class 222s being cascaded to XC to replace HSTs as well as extra capacity in InterCity Routes
Meanwhile the HSTs will be shortened and then exchange with Class 158/170s from the SR Inter7City Network
Bring Bi-mode like Hitachi or Alternative Fuel Trains like class 600 if possible.

I doubt ScotRail have a need for much more HST stock, or DMUs to give up (you may need a replacement or two for HA23 though). if you assume 9 of the 40 XC Mk.3s lengthed all Scotrail HSTs to 5 car. You are then left with a disproportionately large number of FOs, but stock in general that is different internally to ScR stuff. As well as EC spec PCs and a large bill to refurbish and rearrange to Scotrail spec. All seems like a lot of work to do given there are not a lot of extra duties available for them to do with Scotrail.
What do you plan to do with 158s and 170s, assuming you could actually get them? bulk up the current 170 operations? IIRC there are platform limitations.
I appreciate what you're trying to do, but Scotrail are not exactly short of HSTs for the time being.

 

[BrianW]

I‘m sure there’s many other threads regarding XC capacity. It seems to come up on here very regularly.

True as that may be it's not as helpful to a newish member as it would be to be directed or better still linked to such thread. I think we would all benefit from that kind of help- I would. I know you're not a veteran yourself so not meaning to criticise. Thank you; aimed at 'others' ...