XC in CP 6

[Geezertronic]

One that I have been wondering about is whether the Birmingham-Preston-Glasgow/Edinburgh service should be transfered back to XC and extended to Paddington or Southampton. This could take the path of the Southampton/Reading-Newcastle servce which could be redirected via Bedford.

Are they not the ones VT have combined with the Euston-Birmingham/Wolverhampton services?

 

[Eagle]

Yes, they are.

 

[Mojo]

To avoid having to wire up between Gloucester and Severn Tunnel Junction I wonder if there's any mileage in running all Birmingham (or beyond) to Cardiff services via Bristol Parkway, perhaps calling at a new Gloucester Parkway station. Already Cheltenham to Newport on the fast trains is the best part of an hour, but Cheltenham to Bristol Parkway is only 30 Min, and Bristol Parkway to Newport only 25 Min (and possibly faster if the line was improved and electric traction used).

If capacity is an issue with running this extra service via Yate (especially given the Paddington service will be 3tph from Bristol Parkway), then perhaps it could replace the Temple Meads terminating services.

 

[AndyLandy]

When I discussed this a couple of years ago, it was more to do with lack of paths in the Basingstoke area. They can make more paths available through Winchester etc by diverting freights via Redbridge, Romsey, Andover etc, but that does nothing for Basingstoke.

I think they have medium term plans for another long freight recess loop at Basingstoke, but I think it would only work in one direction. What I'm really trying to point out is that just because the current service is 2 hourly we mustn't necessarily assume that the other hour is free, either one way of both ways...

Indeed, that's a fair point. I'd forgotten the freight/ECS paths. I gather it's mostly in the Basingstoke area where the congestion lies?

Still, it would be nice to have a 2tph XC service to Southampton.

 

[Eagle]

Indeed, that's a fair point. I'd forgotten the freight/ECS paths. I gather it's mostly in the Basingstoke area where the congestion lies?

Actually I believe it's mainly in the Eastleigh and Northam areas.

 

[AndyLandy]

Actually I believe it's mainly in the Eastleigh and Northam areas.

Ahh, so I'm wrong on every count here! That must be some kind of record!

So, what's chewing up the paths? Freight from the terminal at Dock Gate 4? There's a surprising amount of traffic over the crossing on Canute Road, and it has to be going somewhere...

 

[anthony263]

To avoid having to wire up between Gloucester and Severn Tunnel Junction I wonder if there's any mileage in running all Birmingham (or beyond) to Cardiff services via Bristol Parkway, perhaps calling at a new Gloucester Parkway station. Already Cheltenham to Newport on the fast trains is the best part of an hour, but Cheltenham to Bristol Parkway is only 30 Min, and Bristol Parkway to Newport only 25 Min (and possibly faster if the line was improved and electric traction used).

If capacity is an issue with running this extra service via Yate (especially given the Paddington service will be 3tph from Bristol Parkway), then perhaps it could replace the Temple Meads terminating services.

I dont think some people will like that especially with the WG etc pushing for 3 or 4 tph between Cardiff and Bristol TM.

Howver at least 1tph from South wales to London is expected to run non stop through Bristol Parkway so perhaps they might be some scope to do so.

Is there anyway to increase the linespeed between Caldicot and Gloucester?

 

[swt_passenger]

The problems in the Eastleigh area are mostly to do with driver changeovers in the station, and there's also time consuming moves of up direction trains into and out of Eastleigh East Yard for recessing them during the peaks. But there are known solutions to the driver changeovers, such as the extended up loop currently being installed. They intend to do something similar in the down direction, by allowing trains to run through the yard into Platform 3 directly.

London and SE RUS from 2011 describes the problems in both the Eastleigh and Basingstoke areas, although I don't see any specific mention of a problem at Northam. There's stufff in both chapter 9, and chapter 11.

 

[The Planner]

Is there anyway to increase the linespeed between Caldicot and Gloucester?

Been looked at quite seriously, but struggling to get anywhere as it doesn't really deliver a lot on its own. Bung it in with knitting and it would probably wash its face a bit better.

 

[Muzer]

The problems in the Eastleigh area are mostly to do with driver changeovers in the station, and there's also time consuming moves of up direction trains into and out of Eastleigh East Yard for recessing them during the peaks. But there are known solutions to the driver changeovers, such as the extended up loop currently being installed. They intend to do something similar in the down direction, by allowing trains to run through the yard into Platform 3 directly.

London and SE RUS from 2011 describes the problems in both the Eastleigh and Basingstoke areas, although I don't see any specific mention of a problem at Northam. There's stufff in both chapter 9, and chapter 11.

So how will the driver changeovers work in the goods loop? Will there be a small platform or will the drivers have to climb down? I don't know what is usual - Eastleigh is the only place I know where I've seen them.

 

[swt_passenger]

Don't know what the exact practicalities are, but a very small platform (with bus shelter?) just west of Campbell Rd Bridge should be all they need. I base that assumption on the normal driving skills that allow routine stops at their messroom door +/- about 3 foot...

 

[Tomnick]

A shelter of any sort, or any attempt at a raised platform, would be a luxury compared to most freight relieving locations away from stations!

 

[swt_passenger]

A shelter of any sort, or any attempt at a raised platform, would be a luxury compared to most freight relieving locations away from stations!

By coincidence, there's supposed to be a block this Sunday in connection with the new loop. It will be interesting to see if anything becomes clearer at the Eastleigh end, because there was a rumour that the entry speed into platform 1 from the up main would also be increased, presumably by installing a higher speed set of points.

I expect that an installation to current standards would put the loop starting signal further away from the crossover than hitherto, nevertheless it's only an assumption that the stopping point would be west of the bridge.

This is because I think the obvious walking route from the platform will have to be outside the rail boundary due to limited clearances under the bridge and alongside the ramp going up to the bridge. So down the main road and back in again IYSWIM...

 

[Muzer]

Ah, that makes sense - I was wondering why the SWML was broken this weekend.

(I'm planning on walking to St. Denys and going via the Portsmouth Direct line, much more fun than replacement buses)

 

[tbtc]

Been looked at quite seriously, but struggling to get anywhere as it doesn't really deliver a lot on its own. Bung it in with knitting and it would probably wash its face a bit better.

If Longbridge - Bristol Parkway gets electrified then I suppose the case for Cheltenham - Newport changes - just a question of how they tackle the muddle of different routes on the XC "network"

 

[The Ham]

Is there anyway to increase the linespeed between Caldicot and Gloucester?

Been looked at quite seriously, but struggling to get anywhere as it doesn't really deliver a lot on its own. Bung it in with knitting and it would probably wash its face a bit better.

By electrifying it and increasing the line speed not only does it benefit XC, but it would also make running diversions (avoiding Severn Tunnel) much faster.

Could even make it worth extending some (maybe one or two a day) of the London/Gloucester services into Wales to provide Chepstow with a direct London service whilst providing more services between Wales and Gloucester.

 

[Eagle]

Does Chepstow (a small market town with a population of about 10,000) really need a direct London service?

 

[Waverley125]

as has been said, wiring the XC network has a very high CBR, and both routes between Leeds & Sheffield, as well as Sheffield-Doncaster, seem likely to get done in CP6. Plus Hull Trains' desire to wire from Temple Hirst Junction to Hull, even Hull could end up back on the XC network.

That said, the whole XC network could do with rationalising. There is no point whatsoever in running SW - Scotland services via the ECML, as it imposes a huge time penalty for doing so, and is already deeply uncompetitive with air services on that journey. Therefore, services from the South West should terminate at Newcastle. Additionally, I'm unconvinced of the benefits of extending XC services to Penzance compared to a more limited FGW Bristol-Penzance service. Also the Leicester-Cambridge line is always highly crowded, and could do with being made half-hourly.

Therefore, I'd hope for a timetable approximating:

1tph Manchester Piccadilly - Bournemouth
1tph Newcastle - Southampton (via Doncaster)
1tph Newcastle - Plymouth
1tph Lincoln - Swansea
1tph Nottingham - Cardiff
2tph Stansted Airport-Birmingham New Street

Additionally, some replacements of existing XC services

West Coast

1tp2h Bristol Temple Meads - Glasgow Central
1tp2h Bristol Temple Meads - Edinburgh Waverley
1tph Bristol Temple Meads - Manchester Piccadilly

East Coast

1tph Leeds - Aberdeen

 

[1e10]

as has been said, wiring the XC network has a very high CBR, and both routes between Leeds & Sheffield, as well as Sheffield-Doncaster, seem likely to get done in CP6. Plus Hull Trains' desire to wire from Temple Hirst Junction to Hull, even Hull could end up back on the XC network.

That said, the whole XC network could do with rationalising. There is no point whatsoever in running SW - Scotland services via the ECML, as it imposes a huge time penalty for doing so, and is already deeply uncompetitive with air services on that journey. Therefore, services from the South West should terminate at Newcastle. Additionally, I'm unconvinced of the benefits of extending XC services to Penzance compared to a more limited FGW Bristol-Penzance service. Also the Leicester-Cambridge line is always highly crowded, and could do with being made half-hourly.

Therefore, I'd hope for a timetable approximating:

1tph Manchester Piccadilly - Bournemouth
1tph Newcastle - Southampton (via Doncaster)
1tph Newcastle - Plymouth
1tph Lincoln - Swansea
1tph Nottingham - Cardiff
2tph Stansted Airport-Birmingham New Street

Additionally, some replacements of existing XC services

West Coast

1tp2h Bristol Temple Meads - Glasgow Central
1tp2h Bristol Temple Meads - Edinburgh Waverley
1tph Bristol Temple Meads - Manchester Piccadilly

East Coast

1tph Leeds - Aberdeen

Surely the benefit of extending XC services to Penzance is that passengers have the option to travel from locations in the north direct to Penzance (and vice versa) on a direct through service rather than having to change at Bristol Temple Meads.

 

[swt_passenger]

Indeed - and the XC New St - Glasgow service leg is not necessarily aimed at end to end journeys from the SW - it is mainly there to connect the likes of Sheffield and Edinburgh, or Newcastle and Glasgow.

 

[The Ham]

Does Chepstow (a small market town with a population of about 10,000) really need a direct London service?

Proberbly not on it's own, however it was more a case of it providing an extra benefit in addition to extra services between Wales and Gloucester

 

[anthony263]

I know they want to reduce the journey time from Cheltenham to London and the idea has been suggested to avoid Gloucester like Crosscountry so perhaps a Cardiff - Gloucester - Swindon - London service using a 5 carriage IEP would be a good idea.

Chepstow station serves surround area's as well as Chepstow itself and I suspect any passengers traveling to London would porbably have traveled down to Newport etc to catch the train so that would reduce pressure at Newport station

 

[tbtc]

Does Chepstow (a small market town with a population of about 10,000) really need a direct London service?

Every village in the country needs a direct service to London

(according to some threads on here)

 

[Mojo]

Chepstow station serves surround area's as well as Chepstow itself and I suspect any passengers traveling to London would porbably have traveled down to Newport etc to catch the train so that would reduce pressure at Newport station

Is Newport a station with huge capacity problems? Not something I've ever noticed when I have been there.

 

[anthony263]

I have seen it very overcrowded at times especially last christmas

 

[jimm]

I know they want to reduce the journey time from Cheltenham to London and the idea has been suggested to avoid Gloucester like Crosscountry so perhaps a Cardiff - Gloucester - Swindon - London service using a 5 carriage IEP would be a good idea.

Chepstow station serves surround area's as well as Chepstow itself and I suspect any passengers traveling to London would porbably have traveled down to Newport etc to catch the train so that would reduce pressure at Newport station

Even if you could increase line speeds, no one is ever going to sit on a train all that way to and from Chepstow if they can just go off to Newport and then straight under the Severn through the tunnel or drive over to Bristol Parkway to catch a train there. The route via Gloucester wasn't called the Great Way Round before the tunnel opened for nothing.

 

[The Ham]

Even if you could increase line speeds, no one is ever going to sit on a train all that way to and from Chepstow if they can just go off to Newport and then straight under the Severn through the tunnel or drive over to Bristol Parkway to catch a train there. The route via Gloucester wasn't called the Great Way Round before the tunnel opened for nothing.

It currently takes 2 hour 30 minutes to get from Chepstow to London (including a change at Newport) whilst it takes between 26 minutes (express) and 31 (stopper) minutes from Chepstow to Gloucesterand a further 1 hour 55 minutes to get to London from there, giving the fastest journey time of 2 hour 21 minutes or a time saving of 9 minutes, even the slowest shaves 4 minues off.

The reason the great way round was shortened was becaus of journey times to Cardiff, where they can now be a low as 2 hours to London, rather than being in the region of 3 hours.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... also if the service had the extra station stop of Lydney (so as to slow the Chepstow service down a little), it would also improve their journey time to London by not having to change trains, giving a time saving of at least 9 minutes.

 

[Aictos]

Every village in the country needs a direct service to London

(according to some threads on here)

Sad but true, I support a Peterborough Parkway but that's only because the road layout for accessing Peterborough station needs massive improvement as in the peaks the existing layout doesn't give enough capacity for what it's supposed to be for.

I mean they could easily close one of the car parks and build on it to provide a multi story car park using half the space to hold both short stay and long stay passengers and reusing the freed up space to redesign the road layout which would be cheaper and less offensive then simply knocking down the Great Northern hotel.

As to Cross Country, I just want to see the existing Leicester terminators extended to Cambridge with option of being extended to Stansted so it's a half hourly between Leicester and Stansted instead of a hourly service which can be very busy.

That and just run 3 car DMUs on the route and displace the 2 car 170s elsewhere as 2 car DMUs aren't good for a Inter Regional Airport Service.

 

[Waverley125]

Indeed - and the XC New St - Glasgow service leg is not necessarily aimed at end to end journeys from the SW - it is mainly there to connect the likes of Sheffield and Edinburgh, or Newcastle and Glasgow.

Yes, but there are much better ways of doing that than a through service all the way from the SW, given the time penalty attached. With a dedicated Bristol-Scotland ICWC service it'd be quicker to change at Bristol from Penzance than to go up & via the EC.

At most you extend the Leeds-Aberdeen service south to Nottingham, inserting calls at Chesterfield, Sheffield and Wakefield Westgate. For Glasgow, a better option would be to go up to Leeds, then via the S&C to Carlisle.

 

[JamesRowden]

Would it be worth electrifying the gaps in the North Downs line with OHLE and having Cross Country operate these hourly services that split/join at Stafford/Reading:

North part of train
South part of train
Combined train

• Manchester Piccadilly
• Stockport
• Macclesfield
• Congleton
• Stoke-On-Trent
• Liverpool Lime Street
• Liverpool South Parkway
• Runcorn
• Hartford
• Crewe
• Stafford
• Wolverhampton
• Birmingham New Street
• Birmingham International
• Coventry
• Leamington Spa
• Banbury
• Oxford
• Didcot Parkway
• Reading
• Maidenhead
• Slough
• Heathrow Airport
• Basingstoke
• Winchester
• Southampton Airport Parkway
• Southampton Central
• Brockenhurst
• Bournemouth

• Manchester Piccadilly
• Stockport
• Macclesfield
• Congleton
• Stoke-On-Trent
• Liverpool Lime Street
• Liverpool South Parkway
• Runcorn
• Hartford
• Crewe
• Stafford
• Wolverhampton
• Birmingham New Street
• Birmingham International
• Coventry
• Leamington Spa
• Banbury
• Oxford
• Didcot Parkway
• Reading
• Maidenhead
• Slough
• Heathrow Airport
• Wokingham
• Blackwater
• Guildford
• Dorking Deepdene
• Reigate
• Redhill
• Gatwick Airport

Crosscountry would also run a Southampton-Reading connecting service and a Reading-Gatwick stopping connecting service (therefore taking over the North Downs line). The electrfication and use of dual voltage EMUs would also allow the Crosscountry services to use the current diversionary route between Reading and Southampton via Havant.