XC HSTs being shortened?

[fgwrich]

Last few Bournemouth services I've seen have been 4 coaches which is ridiculous. Even a 5 coach 22x would be better, never mind about "Oh no, only 7 coach HSTs down to Plymouth!"

True!

Got to say though...in the last few weeks of Virgin Cross Country...we even had a few pairs of 221s down here...looked pretty impressive in readings platform 4...

 

[Pumbaa]

Lots of broad statements but no facts!

Info came from a certain Mr Miles, so not to be quaffed at.

Why cant they use them on other routes aswell such as the bournemouth

Short chain link bogies etc, they're not cleared. The franchise conditions also explicitly state that the HSTs must be used on the Newcastle - Bristol corridor. XC wanted to provide more seats on the corridor overall by using them solely on the Central part, and shuttling back and forth several times, but it was insisted to them that they need to cover the longer core routes.

 

[Drsatan]

Given that in the summer months they probably carry a lot of holidaymakers to the SouthWest, I'd imagine the loads are lighter in winter. So if XC can save some money by storing a TS from each set for a few months, what's wrong with that?

XC will be saving money...at the expense of passenger comfort. If XC didn't want to remove trailers from its HST sets it shouldn't have bid for the XC franchise in the first place.

 

[Techniquest]

Can't make that much of a difference in performance though if they do remove a TS. MML were going to do a similar thing in 2007, with removing the buffet cars. Was to improve performance and save money. Hmm, did they do it? No, of course not. I'm told the buffet cars were being leased for zero anyway, so removing the 35 or so tonnes would have probably ended up with them losing money.

Shall be interesting to see what happens though.

 

[matt]

Short chain link bogies etc,

I remember reading somewhere that after overhaul this is no longer an issue for the XC HSTs.

 

[Techniquest]

Not heard that before, would like the source of that if you remember it.

Sounds like AXC need to have a go at the DfT and make them let the HSTs where they need to be going!

 

[matt]

Was mentioned by someone on wnxx who I think works for CrossCountry saying the bogies were modified during the overhaul

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Was mentioned by someone on wnxx who I think works for CrossCountry saying the bogies were modified during the overhaul

Ah thanks for that. Just found the post by Syphon & yes, he does work for XC

All were modified on overhaul mate!!

Or something along those lines.....

 

[theblackwatch]

There is the other issue on the Bournemouth route of crewing - staff would need to be retrained on HSTs. It makes sense to confine them to particular routes.

 

[Techniquest]

Ah thanks for that. Just found the post by Syphon & yes, he does work for XC

Ah yeah, I vaguely recall seeing something about that.

Could well be in the best interests for AXC to have even one HST diagram serve Bomo I'd say, more capacity than the usual Vomiter which could then be used to strengthen another service on the XC network.

At least they'd look like they were trying to solve capacity issues to the passengers on that part of their empire. Maybe take a leaf out of Virgin's book and get a PR spin going.

Although the DfT would have to allow that to happen first

 

[royaloak]

They have not stood down any sets, all they have done is remove coach D, a standard coach.
To send these coaches anywhere you would need to push them by hand as there are no power-cars spare, they are still running all 5 sets just as 2+7 instead of 2+8.
The coaches have been removed to save fuel and will be re-inserted when passenger numbers require it, they are still being leased and MAY be used to cover other coaches undergoing maintenance, the joy of an HST set is the re-insertion can be done very easily not like any stupid modern train.

 

[Drsatan]

HSTs were used on the Bournemouth route in the past (and even to Pompey via the North Downs Line & Portsmouth Direct), so why would "short chain-link bogies" be a problem?

 

[Pumbaa]

Not all Mk3 have them - none of the current XC Mk3s have. The bogies have been shoved around the place and are now split up nicely with the extra HSTs everyone got when Virgin got rid of them.

 

[317666]

Honestly, you'd think that they'd learned their lesson from the 4-car Voyagers...

Shortening trains does not create more capacity, capiche?

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

HSTs were used on the Bournemouth route in the past (and even to Pompey via the North Downs Line & Portsmouth Direct), so why would "short chain-link bogies" be a problem?

It's actually Short Swing Link (hence SSL on some of them). But as Pumbaa posted, they have all been split up. When FGW ran to Waterloo they had to put some SSL sets together, they had to check each coach manually as RAVERS wasn't trusted!

 

[TGVDUDE]

save weight = save fuel = save money @ passengers' expenses, not a very good idea from my view, only if they didin't need the coaches, which by the posts above seem like, they do need them, if they are going through with them, i think it would be a good idea to give them to another TOC for the time being like FGW, i think they could use them, or as another post above reads, make another train out of them, since there are no Power Cars spare, even if it is more expensive and using un-reliable 47's let 67's or something, i can't recall a time when a 67 hauled service went wrong, look at FGW's Cardiff - Taunton skips, imagine this, but MK3 stock on a longer journey?.......won't be that bad to me, but back to the HST set's they've lost the seats.....make the right decision AXC

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

or something, i can't recall a time when a 67 hauled service went wrong, look at FGW's Cardiff - Taunton skips

The 67s have gone wrong - 67s have failed resulting in 66 vices. The service had been caped when the 67s have had problems.

Granted, it's not very often when something goes wrong mechanically with them, but it does happen.

 

[royaloak]

No loco can supply ETS to HST trailers as they use a 3 phase supply, all the coaches are standard class only, the trains are NOT running full due to the seasonal drop off in passenger numbers, the coaches will be going back in when pax nos increase.
Where is the problem!
To all the people going on about standing passengers, when was the last time you were on a CROSS COUNTRY HST with standing passengers for any length.

I do wish people would do some homework before coming up with bright ideas about how to cure the railways problems, most of the supposed "solutions" can be shot down with the knowledge of a spotter!

that would be me

 

[TGVDUDE]

No loco can supply ETS to HST trailers as they use a 3 phase supply, all the coaches are standard class only, the trains are NOT running full due to the seasonal drop off in passenger numbers, the coaches will be going back in when pax nos increase.
Where is the problem!
To all the people going on about standing passengers, when was the last time you were on a CROSS COUNTRY HST with standing passengers for any length.

I do wish people would do some homework before coming up with bright ideas about how to cure the railways problems, most of the supposed "solutions" can be shot down with the knowledge of a spotter!

that would be me

i forgot about the diffirence in MK3 stock, my bad, i've never been on a XC HST i was just going by what people had mentioned above lol, even if passengers are dropping on AXC because it's the season for it, i'm sure there are other TOC's that could make short-term use of them?

 

[royaloak]

But the problem is that each TOC modifies their own stock their own ways so they might not be electrically compatable, FGW had no end of trouble with the ex Virgin sets they took on in that department.

 

[TGVDUDE]

But the problem is that each TOC modifies their own stock their own ways so they might not be electrically compatable, FGW had no end of trouble with the ex Virgin sets they took on in that department.

ahh right, thanks for clearing some cob webs in the wide world of TOC stock lol

 

[royaloak]

It can be an absolute nightmare at times, some stuff that SHOULD work together wont.
Remember the Mark 3s are around 30 years old and that is a lot of refurbs and modifications along the way.
Sorry if I came across a bit abrupt earlier it wasn't intentional.

 

[furryfeet]

the coaches will be going back in when pax nos increase.
Where is the problem!

the problem will be when all of a sudden there are a lot of passengers travelling on one day and unfortunately it is the shortened HST that has to cope - it can't and gets crammed full.

Leave the coaches in service - then they can help cope with the unexpected.

Of course AXC do not seem to care about passengers comfort - all they care about is getting the biggest profit.

 

[yorksrob]

No loco can supply ETS to HST trailers as they use a 3 phase supply, all the coaches are standard class only, the trains are NOT running full due to the seasonal drop off in passenger numbers, the coaches will be going back in when pax nos increase.
Where is the problem!
To all the people going on about standing passengers, when was the last time you were on a CROSS COUNTRY HST with standing passengers for any length.

I do wish people would do some homework before coming up with bright ideas about how to cure the railways problems, most of the supposed "solutions" can be shot down with the knowledge of a spotter!

that would be me

Ah, you never know, there was a loco hauled Mk 1 which got transferred to a South Eastern CEP when buffet cars were withdrawn in the early eighties and then got transferred to become a DEMU trailer in the nineties, so rewireings arent that far fetched at all

 

[royaloak]

They, there were several, didnt need (or get) re-wired, standard ETS is 1000V, Southern (CEPS or DEMUs) is 750V so the heaters would have been a bit cooler but work fine.

 

[yorksrob]

Cheers for the info Royaloak.

HST Mk 3's and non HST Mk3, feel deceptively similar to my backside

 

[royaloak]

They are (depending how much padding you have got ).
The biggest difference is that the way the 3 phase gets supplied, the HST is direct off the powercar, and the loco hauled ones have an MA set, that is basically a 1000V electric Motor which drives an Alternator that supplies the 3 phases, so not impossible.
Most XC HSTs are ex loco hauled coaches with the MAs removed and a bit of rewiring, but not practical for a short term hire.
The XC HSTs are also wired differently between coaches, got an extra (small) jumper cable compared to other TOCS, but the same off the powercars (I think).
Remember the XC HSTs are "standard" to XC who are not interested in how they compare to other HSTs as the coaches will never be mixed up, in fact it is in their interest to make them incompatible so they wont get "borrowed".

 

[yorksrob]

Lol, where I work we "borrow" things from our fellow teams !

 

[royaloak]

My point exactly

 

[yorkie]

probably because the hst fleet don't keep up the timing that the vomiters do as they have slower accelleration

Not true at all. Most times I've travelled on the XC HSTs we have had to wait outside stations for platforms, particularly places like Sheffield, Leeds etc.