XC Guildford services

[387star]

How many services do Crosscountry run to Guildford?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

One in each direction, daily.

 

[pompeyfan]

Does it still run dead through and from eastleigh Arlington via the PDL? Also if it runs up the Botley line how would crews maintain knowledge of the Netley line?

 

[godfreycomplex]

Does it still run dead through and from eastleigh Arlington via the PDL?

Yup. Threats of it stopping and going back from Guildford via Reading have so far proved unfounded.

Also if it runs up the Botley line how would crews maintain knowledge of the Netley line?

Cab ride with SWT I suppose; or route refresher by video/DVD is another likely scenario.
I think that's how they do the route via Laverstoke as well as there's no booked empties past Romsey; plus all the route learning empties are DOO so there's also the TM's refreshers to organise.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does it still run dead through and from eastleigh Arlington via the PDL? Also if it runs up the Botley line how would crews maintain knowledge of the Netley line?

It runs to and from Eastleigh TRSMD, the Arriva site, not the works.

Netley line knowledge is gained on an ad hoc basis when required by re-routing Eastleigh to Southampton or Bournemouth ECS. The drivers can also cab-ride with other TOCs.

 

[pompeyfan]

Where abouts is that? Is it the other side of Campbell road where the carriage wash is?

 

[swt_passenger]

Where abouts is that? Is it the other side of Campbell road where the carriage wash is?

Yes, the TRSMD, "the depot" is between Cambell Rd and the airport car park, and is run nowadays by Arriva Traincare:
http://www.arrivatc.com/locations-in-the-uk-eastleigh.php
...and is operationally completely separate to the Arlington site, "the works".

Cambell Rd is definitely the effective dividing line, a satellite view will make it fairly clear. The entry line into the works splits off the depot reception line almost as soon as it separates from the main Portsmouth line, the depot also has a southern connection with NR, there's a track that loops right round the works and makes an up direction connection with the Botley line.

 

[pompeyfan]

Cheers for the insight, very interesting - probably get a great view of airport operations there too!

 

[infobleep]

How many services do Crosscountry run to Guildford?

I was on this train last week. There is also one return daily service, which Monday to Saturday arrives into Guildford at 18.59. On Sunday it arrives 20.33 but is more affected by engineering works. Monday to Saturday it leaves Guildford at 6.02. On Sundays it's 12.14.

I've often wondered why the train doesn't start from Havant, giving it passes that way ECS. I assume there must be times where the train runs ECS from Reading rather than Eastleigh.

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[godfreycomplex]

The morning Guildford service has a Reading TM (who passes to Guildford on the first GWR service). There are no stabling facilities for XC at Reading; it's a guards/catering only depot. The ECS always runs from Eastleigh; however it does sometimes reach Guildford via Basingstoke/Reading.
To start from Havant a Bournemouth TM would have to taxi up to Eastleigh with the driver; which would involve signing on at about 03:00; which understandably they're none too keen to do.
There are three reasons that the train exists; an ORCATS raid; a route refresher and to get a senior XC manager who lives in Guildford to work in the morning (although the last one may be a rumour since I've heard the same about the train they run to Bath). The ORCATS pot from Havant to Guildford is in and of itself quite small; but the ORCATS between Guildford and Reading is huge
Or so I've heard...

 

[pompeyfan]

I suppose they're not stupid and that all orcats raids would have to pay for the crew to learn and maintain knowledge, not an issues I suppose on a depot of say 20, but as the numbers go up you'd think the cost/Benefit scale would start to slide.

 

[godfreycomplex]

Most ORCATS raids that XC do are on routes the crew sign as diversions anyway (Bath; Guildford; Crewe). The one exception is Bristol TMs who need to additionally learn Severn Tunnel Junction to Cardiff Central but that's not exactly a vast distance in the grand scheme of things. Bristol drivers sign Cardiff anyway as they do the 170 work I think but that's by the by.
You're right though; it is a sliding scale; and a pretty marginal one in this case I gather. Apart from New Street none of XC's depots are very big so there's that.

 

[Greenback]

I've heard the rumour about a senior member of staff in Guildford as well. I'm not convinced it's true. I think it's a classic case of mess room rumour and gossip, if not a deliberate wind up.

 

[godfreycomplex]

"Nothing is true on the railway unless it's been officially denied"
I think you're probably right, Greenback. There are certainly several variations of the story floating around the network (involving the XC Bath service and the VT Manchester - Birmingham in the morning in particular)

 

[Greenback]

I heard one about GWR as well, but I can't remember what it was!

 

[thenorthern]

Its 1 train per day, prior to 2008 the service ran through Dorking Deepdene (didn't stop) - Redhill - Brighton. There wasn't a requirement to keep the service post 2008 but CrossCountry decided to keep it as far as Guildford.

 

[swt_passenger]

Its 1 train per day, prior to 2008 the service ran through Dorking Deepdene (didn't stop) - Redhill - Brighton. There wasn't a requirement to keep the service post 2008 but CrossCountry decided to keep it as far as Guildford.

That's not exactly what happened. When the consultation came out there was no requirement for any services "East of Reading", as you say. However during that consultation, 'stakeholders' asked for a token Guildford service, and DfT issued a stakeholder briefing in reply that reinstated a requirement for one service to/from Guildford per day; and that was then repeated into the ITT.

So it wasn't Arriva XC's decision to run the service, it had become an ITT requirement by then.

3.2.5.2 Guildford, Gatwick Airport and Brighton
Within the Base Service Specification for SLC2, at least one train per day is required to serve Guildford providing a direct journey opportunity to and from Birmingham which may, if necessary, operate in marginal time.
http://webarchive.nationalarchives....vitationtotender/integratednewcrosscounty.pdf

 

[Ianno87]

That's not exactly what happened. When the consultation came out there was no requirement for any services "East of Reading", as you say. However during that consultation, 'stakeholders' asked for a token Guildford service, and DfT issued a stakeholder briefing in reply that reinstated a requirement for one service to/from Guildford per day; and that was then repeated into the ITT.

So it wasn't Arriva XC's decision to run the service, it had become an ITT requirement by then.

I recall there being a line in the ITT that also said something along the lines that bidders could propose for trains to be retained that directly served Gatwick and Brighton "subject to there being a Value for Money case for doing so". Clearly Arriva (at least) did not think so, and that it would be economically better to lose the cost of the trains and crew that were kept/based at Three Bridges each night, for the (probably) marginal fares revenue they gained from the route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Its 1 train per day, prior to 2008 the service ran through Dorking Deepdene (didn't stop) - Redhill - Brighton. There wasn't a requirement to keep the service post 2008 but CrossCountry decided to keep it as far as Guildford.

Guildford was also served by the former XC services through to Portsmouth via Havant, chopped after the retrenchment of Operation Princess in 2003.

 

[infobleep]

The morning Guildford service has a Reading TM (who passes to Guildford on the first GWR service). There are no stabling facilities for XC at Reading; it's a guards/catering only depot. The ECS always runs from Eastleigh; however it does sometimes reach Guildford via Basingstoke/Reading.
To start from Havant a Bournemouth TM would have to taxi up to Eastleigh with the driver; which would involve signing on at about 03:00; which understandably they're none too keen to do.
There are three reasons that the train exists; an ORCATS raid; a route refresher and to get a senior XC manager who lives in Guildford to work in the morning (although the last one may be a rumour since I've heard the same about the train they run to Bath). The ORCATS pot from Havant to Guildford is in and of itself quite small; but the ORCATS between Guildford and Reading is huge
Or so I've heard...

Why is the ORCATS raid for Reading more valuable than Portsmouth? It's only one train a day in either direction. I know GWR run less services across the day than South West Trains but still. During engineering works where trains are diverted via Guildford, do they get an even bigger slice?

I take it the driver signs on at 3am?

Good job there is a GWR service that gets into Guildford before the Newcastle one. I take it if the Reading service is cancelled the guard is taxied to Guildford?

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[swt_passenger]

I recall there being a line in the ITT that also said something along the lines that bidders could propose for trains to be retained that directly served Gatwick and Brighton "subject to there being a Value for Money case for doing so".

There was, it's the very next paragraph after the one I quoted above. But I was only explaining why they DO run to Guildford, not why they don't run beyond.

 

[Ianno87]

There was, it's the very next paragraph after the one I quoted above. But I was only explaining why they DO run to Guildford, not why they don't run beyond.

I understand that - but it may have been why the poster you were responding to got the impression that it was a commercial decision to serve Guildford - they were mixing it up with the Gatwick/Brighton requirement (sorry, I probably could've been clearer!)

 

[swt_passenger]

Why is the ORCATS raid for Reading (to Guildford)...

In light of my recent quote from the ITT that shows the requirement for the service to run, then I'd suggest that the earlier poster's comment that it is partly an ORCATS raid cannot in fact be justified.

If AXC had taken the option of running additional services, or services to other destinations, then they may well have been ORCATS raids in their own right.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I understand that - but it may have been why the poster you were responding to got the impression that it was a commercial decision to serve Guildford - they were mixing it up with the Gatwick/Brighton requirement (sorry, I probably could've been clearer!)

Ah I see, and that's basically what I thought must have been the case as well. But the service regularly gets explained as being run voluntarily by AXC, so many people must have been similarly mistaken, or misinformed...

 

[Ianno87]

Why is the ORCATS raid for Reading more valuable than Portsmouth? It's only one train a day in either direction. I know GWR run less services across the day than South West Trains but still. During engineering works where trains are diverted via Guildford, do they get an even bigger slice?

I take it the driver signs on at 3am?

Good job there is a GWR service that gets into Guildford before the Newcastle one. I take it if the Reading service is cancelled the guard is taxied to Guildford?

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*Complete speculation*

Does the Guildford-Reading route pick up lots of revenue from Kent/Sussex/Surrey restinations through to the West/Midlands/Wales on the Non-London route, as there are few alternative routeings (and this route has a relatively low capacity/service frequency). Stick a single tactical extra train on, and you might get some disproportionate extra revenue in return?

 

[infobleep]

*Complete speculation*

Does the Guildford-Reading route pick up lots of revenue from Kent/Sussex/Surrey restinations through to the West/Midlands/Wales on the Non-London route, as there are few alternative routeings (and this route has a relatively low capacity/service frequency). Stick a single tactical extra train on, and you might get some disproportionate extra revenue in return?

Make some wonder, if it was an ORCATS tide, which it probably isn't, would the third train an hour on the North Downs Line, affect such revenue?

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[swt_passenger]

Make some wonder, if it was an ORCATS tide, which it probably isn't, would the third train an hour on the North Downs Line, affect such revenue?

It depends on a lot of things, such as end to end speed and calling patterns. Obviously XC cannot get any share of flows between stations which they do not call at. Nothing on the route can get overtaken, so ORCATS will try and model whether there is any advantage gained for a passenger doing the Reading to Guildford 'leg' (and vice versa) to change onto and use XC rather staying on any GWR alternative.

But as I say, I don't believe it is operated as an ORCATS raid on GWR anyway.

 

[godfreycomplex]

I take it the driver signs on at 3am?

Near as dammit - taxi from Bournemouth to Eastleigh and possibly prep the unit. I don't think they have night turns at Bournemouth either.

Good job there is a GWR service that gets into Guildford before the Newcastle one. I take it if the Reading service is cancelled the guard is taxied to Guildford?

Yes they are (although it's not unheard of for the service to start from Reading instead at short notice)

 

[infobleep]

Near as dammit - taxi from Bournemouth to Eastleigh and possibly prep the unit. I don't think they have night turns at Bournemouth either.

Yes they are (although it's not unheard of for the service to start from Reading instead at short notice)

If it gets cancelled, one would end up being 38 minutes late to Birmingham, having only left Guildford 11 minutes later. Shows how good the direct service is for time compared to having to get the GWR service and change.

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[Hophead]

It depends on a lot of things, such as end to end speed and calling patterns. Obviously XC cannot get any share of flows between stations which they do not call at. Nothing on the route can get overtaken, so ORCATS will try and model whether there is any advantage gained for a passenger doing the Reading to Guildford 'leg' (and vice versa) to change onto and use XC rather staying on any GWR alternative.

But as I say, I don't believe it is operated as an ORCATS raid on GWR anyway.

Would the ORCATS formula take into account the fact that the Cross Country train runs at the crack of dawn, when there can be few passengers around to take advantage of the link provided?

 

[swt_passenger]

Would the ORCATS formula take into account the fact that the Cross Country train runs at the crack of dawn, when there can be few passengers around to take advantage of the link provided?

Fair question but I've never seen a detailed enough description of ORCATS to be sure if it uses time of day in that way. Of course the southbound train runs at a reasonable time of day...

 

[infobleep]

Intrestingly and timely, given this thread, the, Guildford to Newcastle service started short at Reading today. Don't know why as National Rail Enquiries App doesn't say.

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