XC fare change - make of this what you will

[mumrar]

In another thread I gave you the good of XC regards fleet reliability. No here's something that could be considered bad/ugly.

"CrossCountry Off Peak tickets on the Manchester – Bournemouth route and surrounding stations will be changing from 22 May 2011. We are changing the restrictions on tickets for this route that currently have an ‘8X’ validity code (valid after 05:00) to a ‘2V’ code (not valid for travel before 09:30). This change also helps align ticket validities along the route and assists in reducing some of the crowding we can experience on early morning services out of Bournemouth/Southampton and Manchester."​

 

[yorkie]

Is that the only change or are they doing this on more routes?

The solutions are simple: Either use a combination of tickets, or go via London.

Let's say you want to leave Manchester at 0830.

Manchester to Bournemouth SVR £102.90 (Not London)

Manchester to Crewe* SOR £14.60
Crewe* to Birmingham SVR £22.10 (Valid after 0900 )
Birmingham to Banbury SVR £16.50 (Valid after 0930)
Banbury to Reading SVR £20.50 (Valid after 0930)
Reading to Bournemouth SVR £33.75 (Valid after 0930)
TOTAL = £107.45

Only a fiver more than the through off peak, yet you can leave Manchester at any time and leave Crewe after 9am. For 20 quid more you can leave Crewe at any time and Birmingham after 9.30am. And so on...

And the best bit? Under ORCATS XC get even less money, and you give more money to Chiltern, Northern, FGW, etc

And in the other direction the solution is REALLY easy. Simply get a +London ticket for only £1.50 extra. This is valid by any train from Bournmouth to London, and then is only restricted out of Euston (can be used after 0926 from Euston, that is far better than leaving Bournemouth at 0930), and XC will get only a tiny amount of your cash.

* Or take Virgin to Stoke (£11.00 SOR), and then 2 x SDS from Stoke to Birmingham or, if it's now after 0930, get an SVR from there. Or, for early birds on the 0627 from Manchester, get another SOR on Virgin for £11.00 Stoke to Birmingham.

Many other combinations exist.

Also, a Chorley to Bournemouth is £111.50 and is priced by Virgin and valid after 0415.

Anyone who uses this site or is vaguely aware of split ticketing need not get caught out!

 

[bb21]

I stopped using XC through fare long ago. Before my move back oop North , I would buy Reading - Basingstoke plus Basingstoke - Bournemouth CDR's instead of Reading - Bournemouth CDR and travel on XC's through train, and the same applies with journeys from Oxford. XC's fare structure's horribly out of sync with other TOC's, even someone with as inflated price as SWT.

I don't buy the excuse offered by XC. Overcrowding at Bournemouth, Southampton, etc, is mainly due to people travelling short distances, eg. Bournemouth - Southampton Central and Winchester, Southampton Central - Winchester and Basingstoke, etc, where XC does not own the flow anyway. 8X fares are mainly long-haul and how that helps ease overcrowding that mainly occur over localised sections I will never know. I'm sorry but this is just another stealth price hike to me.

Rant over.

 

[yorkie]

Alternatively it may be more convenient to go via Stoke, in which case it's cheapest on the early morning Virgin service. After that, it does cost more via Stoke but more convenient you avoid an additional change of trains. Anyway these are just examples there are many more ways round it. The best deal will depend on various factors such as the time of departure from Manchester.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I stopped using XC through fare long ago. Before my move back oop North , I would buy Reading - Basingstoke plus Basingstoke - Bournemouth CDR's instead of Reading - Bournemouth CDR and travel on XC's through train, and the same applies with journeys from Oxford. XC's fare structure's horribly out of sync with other TOC's, even someone with as inflated price as SWT.

Indeed, the idea that it puts these tickets in line with others is absurd. The rival products from Bournemouth, Southampton etc are in fact unrestricted on the SWT leg of the journey! Not only that but a Railcard holder is additionally unrestricted on Virgin. So what I hope and expect to happen is a shift from XC to Virgin, however passengers who don't wish to change trains may switch modes to air or road.

I don't buy the excuse offered by XC. Overcrowding at Bournemouth, Southampton, etc, is mainly due to people travelling short distances, eg. Bournemouth - Southampton Central and Winchester, Southampton Central - Winchester and Basingstoke, etc, where XC does not own the flow anyway. 8X fares are mainly long-haul and how that helps ease overcrowding that mainly occur over localised sections I will never know. I'm sorry but this is just another stealth price hike to me.

Rant over.

Yes, it's a nonsense. I recall a few years ago, I think toward the end of Virgin holding the franchise, the same changes were implemented throughout their franchise, not just on the Manchester-Bournemouth route, this got them bad publicity and they changed their minds within weeks.

I don't think Arriva are particularly bothered about their reputation (certainly not to the exent that Virgin are) so I don't expect them to cave in. They know the Arriva brand has little credibility and seem almost embarrassed to admit to being the XC franchise holders. I bet the vast majority of their customers have no idea!

 

[All Line Rover]

Yes, it's a nonsense. I recall a few years ago, I think toward the end of Virgin holding the franchise, the same changes were implemented throughout their franchise, not just on the Manchester-Bournemouth route, this got them bad publicity and they changed their minds within weeks.

Is what they are doing really nonsense though? To me it seems nonsense that they have "Off-Peak" fares which are valid from 5am, but are also selling "Peak" tickets at the same time even though there are no trains before 5am!

The "Off-Peak" return from Basingstoke to Manchester is £75.70 (and is valid after 5am!), but the Off-Peak return from Reading to Manchester is only valid after 9:30am. This means that people from Reading to Manchester "must" (according to the Reading ticket office ) buy an Anytime Return at £140 - about double the price. Seems a bit unfair to me!

In my opinion people south of Reading have been lucky that XC Off-Peak fares are valid from 5am!

 

[radamfi]

The TOCs will only stop 'offering' silly SOR fares when passengers stop paying them. Why don't people boycott Virgin's £279 Manchester to London return fare? Those people/businesses paying that are effectively meaning that there is effectively no long distance Virgin service in peak hours for the vast majority of people

 

[John @ home]

"CrossCountry Off Peak tickets on the Manchester – Bournemouth route and surrounding stations will be changing from 22 May 2011. We are changing the restrictions on tickets for this route that currently have an ‘8X’ validity code (valid after 05:00) to a ‘2V’ code (not valid for travel before 09:30). This change also helps align ticket validities along the route and assists in reducing some of the crowding we can experience on early morning services out of Bournemouth/Southampton and Manchester."

Could you quote a source for this quotation, please, mumrar?

 

[mumrar]

Could you quote a source for this quotation, please, mumrar?

Internal CrossCountry staff revenue brief emailed to Blackberry users when I posted it, so it's definately reliable

 

[radamfi]

Even if you don't have access to XC's staff briefing, if you try to book Manchester to Bournemouth early in the morning in the new timetable you can see that only Anytime fares are offered.

 

[bb21]

Is what they are doing really nonsense though? To me it seems nonsense that they have "Off-Peak" fares which are valid from 5am, but are also selling "Peak" tickets at the same time even though there are no trains before 5am!

The "Off-Peak" return from Basingstoke to Manchester is £75.70 (and is valid after 5am!), but the Off-Peak return from Reading to Manchester is only valid after 9:30am. This means that people from Reading to Manchester "must" (according to the Reading ticket office ) buy an Anytime Return at £140 - about double the price. Seems a bit unfair to me!

In my opinion people south of Reading have been lucky that XC Off-Peak fares are valid from 5am!

So what is your solution? Get rid of fares such as 8A, 8E, 8X, 2T ones and replace them all with a standardised restriction such as 2V?

Manchester to Reading, Oxford, etc are now 2V because of the government's failure to protect the passengers from the greedy TOC's in the aftermath of the "complication". They failed in their duties to "protect" certain fares as they promised the general public. Are you suggesting that to make it a fairer system, the passengers' rights to affordable fares must be further eroded? Rail travel is a necessity. It is a public service, albeit run by private companies. It is not a luxury.

You're playing right into XC's hands I'm afraid.

 

[yorkie]

radamfi - I take your point, indeed there are such people! But with Manchester-London the possibilities for using a combination of tickets is extremely limited, given that the vast majority of trains are non-stop for at least the portion of journey from MKC to Stoke or Crewe! Yes, there are other ways round it, and people do use them, but some business people with far too much money to chuck away, will buy them I agree!

Is what they are doing really nonsense though? To me it seems nonsense that they have "Off-Peak" fares which are valid from 5am, but are also selling "Peak" tickets at the same time even though there are no trains before 5am!

The "Off-Peak" return from Basingstoke to Manchester is £75.70 (and is valid after 5am!), but the Off-Peak return from Reading to Manchester is only valid after 9:30am. This means that people from Reading to Manchester "must" (according to the Reading ticket office ) buy an Anytime Return at £140 - about double the price. Seems a bit unfair to me!

In my opinion people south of Reading have been lucky that XC Off-Peak fares are valid from 5am!

Assuming a day return at peak time throughout, £20 Reading to Banbury, then £18.10 Banbury to Birmingham, £19.70 Birmingham to Stoke, £15.10 Stoke to Manchester. These are all Anytime Day fares so it is likely that some of these can be CDRs if it becomes after 9.30am during the journey (which is highly likely, so you can reduce this cost further). Total £72.90, which beats buying from Basingstoke.

They can't win against people like us. Yes a few rich business people will pay through the nose. But the general public will either go via London (from Bournemouth, Basingstoke etc) or "split their ticket" (which is famous now, most people know about it), or choose not to travel by train.

 

[John @ home]

it's definately reliable

I don't doubt its reliability, but I can't trace any similar announcement in the public domain. Perhaps I'll ask one of the railway journalists if they have been informed.

 

[mumrar]

They can't win against people like us. Yes a few rich business people will pay through the nose. But the general public will either go via London (from Bournemouth, Basingstoke etc) or "split their ticket" (which is famous now, most people know about it), or choose not to travel by train.

A lot of good points, and the railways are becoming a victim of their own success in terms of passneger numbers. This is where privatisation falls down a bit. XC can see they fill most of the seats at large portions of the day, so as a business with duty of care to shareholders etc they rightly look for ways to squeeze the most £ per space taken by a passenger.

If you or I were either running the company or a shareholder, we'd be very glad of that approach. Its the danger of 'public transport' that isn't publicly owned.

 

[radamfi]

I feel really sorry for those people who will be paying the £208 SOR fare from Manchester to Bournemouth and who don't know about ways of cutting the fare down. It is bad enough sitting on a Voyager for 5 hours when you are paying a cheap Advance fare!

I wouldn't be surprised if some people, after going through this ordeal, decide to go through London and pay £394 (:eek for the Anytime fare via London on subsequent trips.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A (slightly) more charitable reason for silly SOR fares is to effectively ban the train to longer distance travellers to allow more room for shorter trips. You could argue XC are saying to Manchester to Bournemouth passengers, "We need these seats for Manchester to Birmingham passengers so could you please delay your trip for a couple of hours?"

Of course, this does not apply on routes like Manchester to London where there are long non-stop sections.

 

[bnm]

A lot of good points, and the railways are becoming a victim of their own success in terms of passneger numbers. This is where privatisation falls down a bit. XC can see they fill most of the seats at large portions of the day, so as a business with duty of care to shareholders etc they rightly look for ways to squeeze the most £ per space taken by a passenger.

If you or I were either running the company or a shareholder, we'd be very glad of that approach. Its the danger of 'public transport' that isn't publicly owned.

And how many shareholders has CrossCountry got?

One. The German State.

 

[bb21]

A (slightly) more charitable reason for silly SOR fares is to effectively ban the train to longer distance travellers to allow more room for shorter trips. You could argue XC are saying to Manchester to Bournemouth passengers, "We need these seats for Manchester to Birmingham passengers so could you please delay your trip for a couple of hours?"

I must say that this line of logic confuses me. As an inter-city operator, XC should be more geared towards passengers travelling long distances, as in many circumstances, travelling by train over that distance is the only feasible option. Where there are parallel local operators, XC should be doing all it can to try and encourage local passengers onto local services, in order to free up space for long-distance passengers. If XC does not have enough capacity for its medium-to-long distance passengers (I know that they're not solely to blame), then they need to work with the government for a solution, not forcing longer-distance travellers out of their trains. I can understand if XC charges a premium for local journeys, if there is substantial provision from local operators, much like how TGV operates in France.

I know this is the ideal situation and the reality is far from it. However the way forward cannot be to force Manchester - Winchester passengers off the 0530 so that the Manchester - Brum passenger can have a seat.

 

[SS4]

And how many shareholders has CrossCountry got?

One. The German State.

Either way, a large chunk of the profits do not end up in Westminster so they may as well have shareholders. More to the point why hasn't the EU stopped this?

As for the topic at hand I see it as a stealth rise. Many people who are not enthusiasts/on this forum will not understand they can split and for those travelling on the company account couldn't care less

 

[Greenback]

I don't think Arriva are particularly bothered about their reputation (certainly not to the exent that Virgin are) so I don't expect them to cave in. They know the Arriva brand has little credibility and seem almost embarrassed to admit to being the XC franchise holders. I bet the vast majority of their customers have no idea!

They aren;t bothered at all, it;s just an attempt to try and extract more revenue, but as with most of their other ides it;s ill thought out and will actually mean they get less revenue overall, through splitting, or switching to other routes.

This is why they are struggling to hit revenue targets, and the more desperate they get, the more they will fall short!

Is what they are doing really nonsense though? To me it seems nonsense that they have "Off-Peak" fares which are valid from 5am, but are also selling "Peak" tickets at the same time even though there are no trains before 5am!

The "Off-Peak" return from Basingstoke to Manchester is £75.70 (and is valid after 5am!), but the Off-Peak return from Reading to Manchester is only valid after 9:30am. This means that people from Reading to Manchester "must" (according to the Reading ticket office ) buy an Anytime Return at £140 - about double the price. Seems a bit unfair to me!

In my opinion people south of Reading have been lucky that XC Off-Peak fares are valid from 5am!

Yes, it is a nonsense, like most of the fares system!

Of course, years ago, there were no restictions at all on the XC network/ The savers all had an 8A (I think!) validity code, which meant travel at any time.

They can't win against people like us. Yes a few rich business people will pay through the nose. But the general public will either go via London (from Bournemouth, Basingstoke etc) or "split their ticket" (which is famous now, most people know about it), or choose not to travel by train.

It's the latter that upsets me - people driven off the railways by the high prices but not realising they could pay a lot less.

I wouldn't be surprised if some people, after going through this ordeal, decide to go through London and pay £394 (:eek for the Anytime fare via London on subsequent trips.

I think it's much more likely that having paid £200 for the pleasure of a long trip in an overcrowded Voyager through Birmingham, that the traveller will never want to set foot on a train again!

 

[radamfi]

I must say that this line of logic confuses me. As an inter-city operator, XC should be more geared towards passengers travelling long distances, as in many circumstances, travelling by train over that distance is the only feasible option. Where there are parallel local operators, XC should be doing all it can to try and encourage local passengers onto local services, in order to free up space for long-distance passengers. If XC does not have enough capacity for its medium-to-long distance passengers (I know that they're not solely to blame), then they need to work with the government for a solution, not forcing longer-distance travellers out of their trains. I can understand if XC charges a premium for local journeys, if there is substantial provision from local operators, much like how TGV operates in France.

I know this is the ideal situation and the reality is far from it. However the way forward cannot be to force Manchester - Winchester passengers off the 0530 so that the Manchester - Brum passenger can have a seat.

I essentially agree with what you say. I was just trying to find some rational reason for the change. Manchester to Birmingham is a very significant market and the Anytime fare is still vaguely affordable (although vast sums can be saved by splitting). Therefore XC might consider it acceptable to prioritise this market over the relatively few people doing trips like Manchester to Bournemouth who are more likely to be leisure travellers and therefore can defer their trip until later in the day.

 

[bb21]

But then if it is such a small number of people making through journeys between Manchester and places beyond Birmingham then surely it doesn't hurt XC to accommodate them on the trains. I agree, no one can stop XC prioritising the MAN - BHM flow if they are more profitable. At the end of the day, the CEO would not be doing a very good job if he put the interests of the general public before the shareholders, as head of a plc.

I prey that the day Aberdeen - Penzance SVR being changed to 2V never arrives.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The TOCs will only stop 'offering' silly SOR fares when passengers stop paying them. Why don't people boycott Virgin's £279 Manchester to London return fare? Those people/businesses paying that are effectively meaning that there is effectively no long distance Virgin service in peak hours for the vast majority of people

The cheapest BA ticket on Monday 9 May Manchester-Heathrow is £209 each way or £418 all up. That's why VT's £279 is seen as a bargain (by some people).

 

[radamfi]

The cheapest BA ticket on Monday 9 May Manchester-Heathrow is £209 each way or £418 all up. That's why VT's £279 is seen as a bargain (by some people).

People should make alternative arrangements other than travelling early in the morning. For example, travelling the previous night or rearranging meetings to avoid peak time travel. I'm still surprised that there is a market for paying though the nose unnecessarily for business travel. We are supposed to be in a state of austerity and surely it is poor business sense to waste money in this way? My company has banned the use of Anytime tickets where Advance fares exist.

 

[All Line Rover]

They can't win against people like us. Yes a few rich business people will pay through the nose. But the general public will either go via London (from Bournemouth, Basingstoke etc) or "split their ticket" (which is famous now, most people know about it), or choose not to travel by train.

To be honest I quite like the fact that business people are willing to pay through the nose, because they are subsidising people like us!

The bottom line is that if XC keep fares low for everyone, they will simply have to go up for everyone!

Keep the current system is what I say. Sky high fares for some people (generally they don't pay themselves, though!) - dirt cheap fares for other.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

radamfi - I take your point, indeed there are such people! But with Manchester-London the possibilities for using a combination of tickets is extremely limited, given that the vast majority of trains are non-stop for at least the portion of journey from MKC to Stoke or Crewe! Yes, there are other ways round it, and people do use them, but some business people with far too much money to chuck away, will buy them I agree!

I agree that Virgin's "core" routes are the most difficult to save on - Stafford to London, Stoke to London, Crewe to London, Coventry to London and Warrington to London. Virgin's Anytime fares are ludicrously high, and as of yet I have not found any ways to get a significantly cheaper ticket.

However, the pain is offset slightly by Virgin's policy of allowing Off-Peak tickets to be used on Peak trains when accompanied by a Railcard. This means that families, people aged 16-25 and people aged 60+ can all travel relatively cheaply at the last minute. Virgin even allow you to "mix'n'match" Off-Peak and Advance fares, so you can buy an Off-Peak fare on the outward journey (if no cheap Advance tickets are available) but still get a cheap Advance fare on the return journey.

In my opinion Virgin also have a reasonably good amount of Advance tickets available - they're certainly better than XC.

 

[Greenback]

People should make alternative arrangements other than travelling early in the morning. For example, travelling the previous night or rearranging meetings to avoid peak time travel. I'm still surprised that there is a market for paying though the nose unnecessarily for business travel. We are supposed to be in a state of austerity and surely it is poor business sense to waste money in this way? My company has banned the use of Anytime tickets where Advance fares exist.

What XC don't seem to realise is that the market for paying these sorts of fares is disappearing. Those that have been paying will change their travel habits when they reach the point where fares are seen as unaffordable. Some may have already reached that point.

Keep the current system is what I say. Sky high fares for some people (generally they don't pay themselves, though!) - dirt cheap fares for other.

I don't really think there is a realistic alternative to the current system, at least not without a radical shake up of the way the railways are run.

However, the pain is offset slightly by Virgin's policy of allowing Off-Peak tickets to be used on Peak trains when accompanied by a Railcard. This means that families, people aged 16-25 and people aged 60+ can all travel relatively cheaply at the last minute. Virgin even allow you to "mix'n'match" Off-Peak and Advance fares, so you can buy an Off-Peak fare on the outward journey (if no cheap Advance tickets are available) but still get a cheap Advance fare on the return journey.

In my opinion Virgin also have a reasonably good amount of Advance tickets available - they're certainly better than XC.

Ah, no doubt you fall into one of the categories that are eligible for a railcard?! My views might well be different if I was eligible, but even so, I think I'd still prefer to see a more equitable system where Advance fares are not so cheap and walk up fares are not so expensive.

 

[All Line Rover]

Ah, no doubt you fall into one of the categories that are eligible for a railcard?! My views might well be different if I was eligible, but even so, I think I'd still prefer to see a more equitable system where Advance fares are not so cheap and walk up fares are not so expensive.

We have a family Railcard. Obviously I will get a 16-25 Railcard as soon as I qualify.

I disagree with raising Advance fares and lowering walk up fares, though. It would discourage people from buying Advance tickets in the first place. I can also see the TOC's viewpoint that having Advance fares helps them to manage capacity and to fill quiet trains, but I only agree with their viewpoint if cheap Advance fares are available on services which I know to be quiet.

 

[Greenback]

I realise that not everyone agrees with my opinion. We have discussed that a few times on here before! I just don't think the balance is quite right at the moment. I am not against Advance tickets, I use them myself and I think it is right that they should exist and offer a discount against walk up tickets. After all, they come with a lot of restrictions as well!

I really don;t think, though, that it is in anyone's longterm interest to have such a range in prices as there is now. There is a huge differential between the Advances and walk up fares for Manchester to Reading, and I don't feel that is right. For one, the huge range of fares puts people off rail travel altogether. An elderly relative of mine will not use the train as she finds it too complicated, and ther emust be amny more like her across the country. She can't afford the high walk up fares for long distance travel even with a railcard (she doesn't live in the Virgin area!), but would happily pay more than an advance ticket if the fares system was streamlined.

 

[Zoe]

but would happily pay more than an advance ticket if the fares system was streamlined.

There is a risk though that any streamlining could just leave us with Anytime and Advance fares. It is possible though that with more people having to pay the Anytime fare for flexibility that a range of even cheaper advance fares could be introduced.

 

[swt_passenger]

Even if you don't have access to XC's staff briefing, if you try to book Manchester to Bournemouth early in the morning in the new timetable you can see that only Anytime fares are offered.

Indeed, if you follow through the NR OJP pages to find the restrictions they have definitely changed as posted above.

However to answer someone else's question - Offpeak fares are still valid 'from 0500' on the same long distance journeys as now to/from the North East, IIRC south of Reading and north of Derby are the cut off points on that route?

 

[Greenback]

There is a risk though that any streamlining could just leave us with Anytime and Advance fares. It is possible though that with more people having to pay the Anytime fare for flexibility that a range of even cheaper advance fares could be introduced.

I would advocate three levels of fare, Walk Up Unrestricted, Walk Up Restricted and Book Ahead. 30% off Restricted Walk Up's and 50% off if you commit to a service and book in advance.

But I know it is unlikely ever to happen!