XC diversions via Lichfield this week

[12LDA28C]

Anyone travelling on CrossCountry this week should note that it appears the direct route between Birmingham and Tamworth is blocked with trains being diverted via Lichfield. Although this could reasonably be expected to add a few minutes into the running time between BHM and DBY, it actually adds a whole hour as trains are booked to sit at Burton for 10-20 minutes and Derby for 25-40 minutes. For example, 1S37 departs BHM at 1003 and leaves Derby at 1145. Travelling from Birmingham to Edinburgh takes six hours! Not great for passengers... is this really the only way these trains could be pathed?

 

[Sunil_P]

Hope to do Lichfield TV high level to Wichnor junction in a couple of weekends' time!

 

[louis97]

is this really the only way these trains could be pathed?

The other option is to re-time all the way to destination or from origin. Neither are really any good as you end up with a mix of paths across the day where you have to fit around everything else, and in some hours it might not even be possible without long dwell elsewhere. Pre-Covid they would only take 30 minutes longer, dropping into the Reading-Newcastle path, but with those not running in every hour at the moment they drop back into the path an hour behind.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Anyone travelling on CrossCountry this week should note that it appears the direct route between Birmingham and Tamworth is blocked with trains being diverted via Lichfield. Although this could reasonably be expected to add a few minutes into the running time between BHM and DBY, it actually adds a whole hour as trains are booked to sit at Burton for 10-20 minutes and Derby for 25-40 minutes. For example, 1S37 departs BHM at 1003 and leaves Derby at 1145. Travelling from Birmingham to Edinburgh takes six hours! Not great for passengers... is this really the only way these trains could be pathed?

It’s taking the ‘robust timetabling‘ concept to an absurd extreme. Presumably the single line between Lichfield and Wichnor and the availability of platforming space at Birmingham New Street means that northbound trains can’t run any later.

 

[12LDA28C]

The other option is to re-time all the way to destination or from origin. Neither are really any good as you end up with a mix of paths across the day where you have to fit around everything else, and in some hours it might not even be possible without long dwell elsewhere. Pre-Covid they would only take 30 minutes longer, dropping into the Reading-Newcastle path, but with those not running in every hour at the moment they drop back into the path an hour behind.

So have those paths been taken by another Operator? It just seems it's too difficult to actually try to find another path and instead use the one an hour behind and extend journey times by an hour because it's easier for planners. Leaving Derby almost an hour and three-quarters after leaving Birmingham is absurd.

 

[The Planner]

Anyone travelling on CrossCountry this week should note that it appears the direct route between Birmingham and Tamworth is blocked with trains being diverted via Lichfield. Although this could reasonably be expected to add a few minutes into the running time between BHM and DBY, it actually adds a whole hour as trains are booked to sit at Burton for 10-20 minutes and Derby for 25-40 minutes. For example, 1S37 departs BHM at 1003 and leaves Derby at 1145. Travelling from Birmingham to Edinburgh takes six hours! Not great for passengers... is this really the only way these trains could be pathed?

Been happening for the last 3 years or so for HS2 works. Already noted that XC dom't want to retime all the way to destination, there is no guarantee you wouldnt drop back a path later anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==

It’s taking the ‘robust timetabling‘ concept to an absurd extreme. Presumably the single line between Lichfield and Wichnor and the availability of platforming space at Birmingham New Street means that northbound trains can’t run any later.

You can't hog a platform no, but the single line at Wichnor isnt a major constraint.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Been happening for the last 3 years or so for HS2 works. Already noted that XC dom't want to retime all the way to destination, there is no guarantee you wouldnt drop back a path later anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2024 ==


You can't hog a platform no, but the single line at Wichnor isnt a major constraint.

So on that basis, could XC sit at New Street for a bit longer to reduce the journey times for a majority of pax not travelling across Birmingham?

 

[louis97]

So have those paths been taken by another Operator? It just seems it's too difficult to actually try to find another path and instead use the one an hour behind and extend journey times by an hour because it's easier for planners. Leaving Derby almost an hour and three-quarters after leaving Birmingham is absurd.

I think they are still available in the most part, however I think I remember someone mentioning there was a small number of locations in some hours where paths had been taken.

If there is an option to not extend the journey time, XC do take it, for example when XC divert via Beighton they reduce the dwell at Birmingham and Derby to accommodate the slight journey time extension and the extra time to change ends at Sheffield. Unfortunately it does lead to a hit on performance as it often leaves the timetable with minimum permitted dwells and mandated allowances only between Birmingham and Sheffield.

You can take your pick of either sitting in one location for the longer, or crawling between stations fitting around everything else until the train ultimately ends up in the path one hour later. The latter is certainly not a good use of a planners time, who is no doubt working to a number of deadlines without any extra work like this.

 

[30907]

So have those paths been taken by another Operator?

No, but they go via Doncaster not Leeds which is slightly problematic.

So on that basis, could XC sit at New Street for a bit longer to reduce the journey times for a majority of pax not travelling across Birmingham?

Platforms at New St are at a premium.

Very frustrating!

Incidentally, there are variations on the pattern. This one is via Doncaster and Leeds:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C48458/2024-08-19/detailed

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Platforms at New St are at a premium.

Very frustrating!

If XC have unused paths in the timetable there could in fact be some space.

 

[Mugby]

The difference in running time between Birmingham and Derby via Lichfield against via Tamwoth is minimal, ten minutes at most.

The problem arises if XC gets stuck behind a WMR Lichfield service stopping at every lamp post. Even with a good run up to Lichfield City, XC usually has to wait whilst the stopper goes on to Trent Valley High Level and stands there until it's time to depart back to Birmingham. This is something which will never be overcome due to the single platform at TV/HL

If XC could do Birmingham to Wichnor via Lichfield non stop with a clear road all the way and no delays there wouldn't be an issue but, of course, that could never be guaranteed.
I went to Derby Station on Saturday to get the 1245 XC to Leeds which was actually the 1145 retimed. When I left my home at about 1210, I knew it was already standing in Platform 1 at Derby and I live on the far side of town.
I fully agree though, it must be soul destroying for through passengers having to sit for ten minutes at Burton-on-Trent followed by up to forty minutes at Derby!

 

[Donny Dave]

Incidentally, there are variations on the pattern. This one is via Doncaster and Leeds:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C48458/2024-08-19/detailed

There's quite a few going Sheffield-Doncaster-Leeds-York currently. Surely this can't be the best use of stock, staff and paths, considering they are having to run a reduced timetable due to not enough staff.

 

[43055]

There's quite a few going Sheffield-Doncaster-Leeds-York currently. Surely this can't be the best use of stock, staff and paths, considering they are having to run a reduced timetable due to not enough staff.

It saves waiting 30 to 40 minuets at Derby to step back an hour. The services that are diverting via Doncaster are around the time of the Newcastle - Reading services if they were running.

 

[YorksLad12]

I remember the first time this happened to me on a train I was on from Leeds, when I realised we hadn't turned off at Moorthorpe and went to Doncaster. My ticket isn't 'via Doncaster', but was still valid, thankfully.

XC have two paths per hour (mostly), but they're not using the other one. The train from Leeds starts off in the via Moorthorpe path but arrives in Sheffield on the via Doncaster path. On the way north they are either dropping off by one hour (1S51 is 1S49 at the moment, the 1721 from Sheffield) or by 30 into the alternative path.

 

[Class 170101]

When this diversion is in operation XC usually operate Sheffield, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate and Leeds to reach York as it consumes all the time to enable them to step back one hour.

This is normally on weekends though when fewer trains operate, especially freight, so it may be more difficult to find paths during the week.

 

[Merle Haggard]

In the current blockade the XC all-stations trains on the route only run Coleshill Parkway eastwards with a bus from/to New St. On previous ones (remodelling/reelaying around Vauxhall) the locals ran through from New Street via Sutton Park. Possibly XC don't regard drivers retaining that route as important but the result is more than a week's bus operation. If Network Rail or HS2 pay for the RRBs I suppose it's simple economics for XC.

The N.R.E.S. 'Engineering Work' page shows all these diversions and R.R.B.s under 'Nuneaton'. Personally I don't think that's the clearest way to alert NE-SW passengers to the increase in journey times.

 

[GoneSouth]

The difference in running time between Birmingham and Derby via Lichfield against via Tamwoth is minimal, ten minutes at most.

The problem arises if XC gets stuck behind a WMR Lichfield service stopping at every lamp post. Even with a good run up to Lichfield City, XC usually has to wait whilst the stopper goes on to Trent Valley High Level and stands there until it's time to depart back to Birmingham. This is something which will never be overcome due to the single platform at TV/HL

If XC could do Birmingham to Wichnor via Lichfield non stop with a clear road all the way and no delays there wouldn't be an issue but, of course, that could never be guaranteed.
I went to Derby Station on Saturday to get the 1245 XC to Leeds which was actually the 1145 retimed. When I left my home at about 1210, I knew it was already standing in Platform 1 at Derby and I live on the far side of town.
I fully agree though, it must be soul destroying for through passengers having to sit for ten minutes at Burton-on-Trent followed by up to forty minutes at Derby!

I used the wait at Derby as an opportunity to have a pint and get some food as there was no catering provided by XC AGAIN!

 

[The Planner]

In the current blockade the XC all-stations trains on the route only run Coleshill Parkway eastwards with a bus from/to New St. On previous ones (remodelling/reelaying around Vauxhall) the locals ran through from New Street via Sutton Park. Possibly XC don't regard drivers retaining that route as important but the result is more than a week's bus operation. If Network Rail or HS2 pay for the RRBs I suppose it's simple economics for XC.

The N.R.E.S. 'Engineering Work' page shows all these diversions and R.R.B.s under 'Nuneaton'. Personally I don't think that's the clearest way to alert NE-SW passengers to the increase in journey times.

XC havent signed it for years. The bus timed at 35 minutes would be quicker anyway.

 

[Watershed]

XC havent signed it for years.

No excuse for not ensuring that at least, say, Leicester and Cambridge drivers sign the diversion. It's not as if they have massive route cards to begin with!

The bus timed at 35 minutes would be quicker anyway.

And as I'm sure you know, rail passengers (generally) aren't interested in taking a replacement bus. They would much rather take a diverted train even if it takes a little longer.

Those who are open to bus travel would sooner pay the £2 flat fare and take a "proper" bus, on which you'd typically get facilities such as USB charging and live tracking (unlike most RRBs).

 

[The Planner]

No excuse for not ensuring that at least, say, Leicester and Cambridge drivers sign the diversion. It's not as if they have massive route cards to begin with!


And as I'm sure you know, rail passengers (generally) aren't interested in taking a replacement bus. They would much rather take a diverted train even if it takes a little longer.

Those who are open to bus travel would sooner pay the £2 flat fare and take a "proper" bus, on which you'd typically get facilities such as USB charging and live tracking (unlike most RRBs).

They can't even cover their WTT let alone the other diversions they used to have. They would also soon drop it like a stone as soon as the HS2 blocks end after expecting HS2 to fund it.

 

[Merle Haggard]

No excuse for not ensuring that at least, say, Leicester and Cambridge drivers sign the diversion. It's not as if they have massive route cards to begin with!


And as I'm sure you know, rail passengers (generally) aren't interested in taking a replacement bus. They would much rather take a diverted train even if it takes a little longer.

Those who are open to bus travel would sooner pay the £2 flat fare and take a "proper" bus, on which you'd typically get facilities such as USB charging and live tracking (unlike most RRBs).

The mistake you're making is in thinking that the present railway is market (or customer) led. Clearly it's operations (=production) led, you can see plenty of examples in this thread.

The purpose of Bob Reid's Organising for Quality (which produced the business sectors as arbiters of service provision) was to make the railways market-led but the influence reverted with privatisation. Much more operationally convenient to run a standard headway/stock service from 06.00 to 23.00* regardless of peaks and troughs of demand, and have a sales organisation try to persuade people to travel when they didn't really need or want to...

* in the case of the former InterCity TOCs

 

[30907]

The mistake you're making is in thinking that the present railway is market (or customer) led. Clearly it's operations (=production) led, you can see plenty of examples in this thread.

The purpose of Bob Reid's Organising for Quality (which produced the business sectors as arbiters of service provision) was to make the railways market-led but the influence reverted with privatisation. Much more operationally convenient to run a standard headway/stock service from 06.00 to 23.00* regardless of peaks and troughs of demand, and have a sales organisation try to persuade people to travel when they didn't really need or want to...

I blame that on Gerry Fiennes (on the GE in the early 50s) though perhaps the SR was an influence

 

[Harpo]

Diversionary route knowledge, like all operational resilience, has a cost and I suspect we might never know whether TOCs or DFT were responsible for the post-covid cost-cutting decisions. But, my money would be on DfT cost pressures.

Let’s hope then that NR is being funded to deliver a highly resilient network. Oh……….