XC - better off now?

[stut]

I'm a reasonably well built 6"4', and I find Cross Country's Turbostars quite pleasant. What's wrong with upright seats anyway? Seems more comfy to me!

I used to find the Central 170s OK, but it's the recent refit that's cause me problems. Upright seats I prefer (the leant-back ones on the likes of 321s are a horrible angle, particularly for facing seats), but, because of the bulky seat design and metal backs, that means that I can't really slide my feet under the seat in front (assuming it's an airline seat, which it is 9 times out of 10).

If you get on a quiet service, and manage to nab a table seat with nobody opposite, then it's just about OK, although the curved headrest aligns with my shoulders, meaning I'm sat leaning forwards. However, as I normally use the trains on business trips, I'm not exactly catching them at quiet times...

Each to their own, of course, but I find the refurb a huge backwards step in terms of passenger comfort.

 

[350401]

The removal of the shops hasn't resulted in seats being increased though - just increased luggage space, and space for a trolley.

I thought it resulted in 14 more seats in 220s and 16 more in 221s, as they are removing the additional centre luggage racks in coaches C and D due to the shop being a huge luggage area? Found a link that says this - http://91.186.0.3/~keepingt/rm/175/RMAN_175.pdf - I hope its right, or its surely the most pointless refurb ever?

 

[Pumbaa]

I thought it resulted in 14 more seats in 220s and 16 more in 221s, as they are removing the additional centre luggage racks in coaches C and D due to the shop being a huge luggage area? Found a link that says this - http://91.186.0.3/~keepingt/rm/175/RMAN_175.pdf - I hope its right, or its surely the most pointless refurb ever?

Ah... my mistake. I hadn't noticed and hadn't seen anything to suggest seating had increased anyway. Thanks for the info!

 

[TEW]

They have apparently moved all the seats around as they no longer line up with the reservations above seats. Leg room has also apparently been compromised.

 

[tbtc]

They have apparently moved all the seats around as they no longer line up with the reservations above seats. Leg room has also apparently been compromised.

Would be nicer if they'd lined the seats up with the windows, but I'm old fashioned...

 

[voyagerdude220]

That's what Virgin have done, with our alterations to the Super Voyagers-

because the shop coach is now used as First Class on the Euston Super Voyager services, the seats have been rearranged, to ensure that they now all allign to the windows.

It's good news for Standard Class passengers on Virgin Super Voyager services between Birmingham and the north though, as coach D is declassified on the Birmingham to Scotland workings.

 

[me123]

It's good news for Birmingham-The North, yes, but pretty bad for Euston FC travellers; I'd personally feel a bit ripped-off paying for a seat that's Standard Class elsewhere on the network.

Out of curiosity, what happens on the Lancaster Super Voyager Services? Is coach D First or Standard?

 

[voyagerdude220]

On the Lancaster-Euston, i'm pretty sure that it's First Class as well, but i'm not 100% sure.

 

[LTJ87]

I used to find the Central 170s OK, but it's the recent refit that's cause me problems. Upright seats I prefer (the leant-back ones on the likes of 321s are a horrible angle, particularly for facing seats), but, because of the bulky seat design and metal backs, that means that I can't really slide my feet under the seat in front (assuming it's an airline seat, which it is 9 times out of 10).

I've noted on the refurbished 170s that, aside from the Priority Seats, there are some seats with significantly less leg room than others. For example, the first row of seats on the opposite side of the carriage to the Priority Seats has quite limited leg room.

Other than that, I think the refurbished 170s are fine. They could do with putting some more bins in the carriages, as there seems to be hardly any.

 

[me123]

It's the same on Scotrail. If you're ever up here, the best airline seats are the ones about half way down the carriage.

I'm surprised, though, that there would be a difference between refurbished and un-refurbished. Although they may be exacerbated by the new seat design?

 

[MCR247]

It's the same on Scotrail. If you're ever up here, the best airline seats are the ones about half way down the carriage.

I'm surprised, though, that there would be a difference between refurbished and un-refurbished. Although they may be exacerbated by the new seat design?

No, not on the MML ones anyway. They had 1st Class in Coach B, but they have replaced them with Standard Class Seats

 

[me123]

Ah, OK. But that's like what we've got up here.

 

[First ScotRail]

On the Lancaster-Euston, i'm pretty sure that it's First Class as well, but i'm not 100% sure.

I think you may be right there.

 

[350401]

Is Lancaster-Euston 2x SuperVoyager or 1x? If its two units then I'd say its probably acceptable to have 2FC and 3SC per car - thats 6x SC and 4xFC coaches per full train, or 322 standard class seats (2x 161). Its its one unit, then its a pretty drastic reduction in standard class seating - down to 161 from 224ish? I know the Bham-Scotland services are single 221s, hence having 4 cars as SC makes sense.

With the AXC voyagers, are even less seats than before lined upto windows? Personally, a bit of modification to get another 14 seats in seems fair enough - every little helps and all that.

My personal gripe with voyagers is that there is tonnes of wasted space in the voyagers - 3 disabled loos per 4 car train seems excessive for a start. Better to have a designated disabled standard coach with the disabled loo and fit a normal loo and more seats in the other 2 standard coaches - thats what FGW have done to thier HSTs? I think they have coach E with 2 disabled bays and the loo and have crammed more seats in the other coaches by having standard loos and removing the disabled areas?

 

[whoshotjimmi]

My personal gripe with voyagers is that there is tonnes of wasted space in the voyagers...

I'm glad someone else has noticed this. On my last trip, though quiet, I couldn't help but feel that there is far too much needless clutter; walls and corridors that appear to take up most of the carriage, especially in the driving cars. A better original internal layout would have helped.

 

[me123]

Is Lancaster-Euston 2x SuperVoyager or 1x? If its two units then I'd say its probably acceptable to have 2FC and 3SC per car - thats 6x SC and 4xFC coaches per full train, or 322 standard class seats (2x 161). Its its one unit, then its a pretty drastic reduction in standard class seating - down to 161 from 224ish? I know the Bham-Scotland services are single 221s, hence having 4 cars as SC makes sense.

They run as 2x221 as far as Crewe, where the train divides. One portion continues to Lancaster and the other to Chester/Holyhead. Apparently they don't have enough Pendolinos to run an hourly to Glasgow all day on weekdays (but they seem to manage fine on weekends).

Sorry, talking a load of rubbish! One a day is a Super Voyager because there's not enough Pendolinos to run hourly all the way to Glasgow. The other two Lancaster terminators are Pendolinos. They don't divide, or even call at, Crewe and are not connected to North Wales trains.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm glad someone else has noticed this. On my last trip, though quiet, I couldn't help but feel that there is far too much needless clutter; walls and corridors that appear to take up most of the carriage, especially in the driving cars. A better original internal layout would have helped.

The Meridians and Pioneers, their younger sisters, were designed more thoroughly, and as such much better internally. Most of the stupid curvy walkways are gone, and the cupboards containing equipment at the carriage ends have also been chucked underneath.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Is Lancaster-Euston 2x SuperVoyager or 1x?

All services between Lancaster and London Euston which are booked for Super Voyagers, are formed of single sets.

The 1K14 05:35 Lancaster to London Euston is booked to couple/combine with the 1R13 04:50 Holyhead to London Euston Super Voyager service at Crewe, forming a 10-car service, with 6 Standard Class coaches and 4 First Class coaches when both portions are 5-carriage Super Voyager sets.

The Lancaster portion is usually the front set, with the Holyhead portion on the rear on departure of Crewe.

 

[tbtc]

My personal gripe with voyagers is that there is tonnes of wasted space in the voyagers - 3 disabled loos per 4 car train seems excessive for a start. Better to have a designated disabled standard coach with the disabled loo and fit a normal loo and more seats in the other 2 standard coaches - thats what FGW have done to thier HSTs? I think they have coach E with 2 disabled bays and the loo and have crammed more seats in the other coaches by having standard loos and removing the disabled areas?

Best solution would have been to have a disabled toiled in each "power car" / end coach, meaning that each train would have a couple, regardless of changed formations. No need for three in a four coach train though (given the loss of space to accomodate them), the DDA legislation certainly doesn't require it.

 

[yorkie]

It's good news for Birmingham-The North, yes, but pretty bad for Euston FC travellers; I'd personally feel a bit ripped-off paying for a seat that's Standard Class elsewhere on the network.

Then you'd feel ripped off on 317s (the IC70 FC seats are identical to standard Mk3 seats), and even more ripped off on Southern/SouthEastern/Thameslink routes where the FC seats are pretty much identical to standard seats within the same unit and worse than standard seats on InterCity type trains!

 

[me123]

Also happens up here on Scotrail; I find the (Inverness refurbished) 158 First Class actually less comfortable than standard class.

 

[jopsuk]

Then you'd feel ripped off on 317s (the IC70 FC seats are identical to standard Mk3 seats), and even more ripped off on Southern/SouthEastern/Thameslink routes where the FC seats are pretty much identical to standard seats within the same unit and worse than standard seats on InterCity type trains!

Plus the lack of any sort of catering, power sockets, on some even no tables in bays.

 

[yorkie]

True. There's actually 3 "classes".

Standard Class - basic. usually no window view (e.g. many of the suburban Mk3-based units no seats have a window view - the windows line up with pillars!). 2+3 seating. No access to catering. 2/3 door arrangement lets drafts in the saloons at all station stops.

Suburban "First" Class/"Intercity" Standard Class - 2+2 seating, Power sockets if you are lucky, decent seats, decent chance of a window view. Catering might be available.

Proper First Class - Good seats, 2+1 seating, Window views, power sockets likely, tables, catering provided (possibly at-seat) etc. Generally only available on "Intercity" TOCs.

Arguably standard class tickets that are priced by, and valid on, Intercity type operators should - morally at least - allow a free upgrade to First class on poor quality operators, e.g. someone who has an Any Permitted ticket from PBO to KGX should legitimately be able to sit in an IC70 seat on a Class 317 as this is identical to what they may sit on if they got a NXEC train. However this, of course, won't happen with the fragmented industry we have today.

 

[Mojo]

1S40 - the 1330 Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh today was formed of a refreshed Virgin West Coast Voyager. Are there many West Coast trains being used by XC - and are they on loan or just a short-term swap?

 

[350401]

Virgin actually runs that service - Bham to Scotland via Crewe WCML - not AXC. As far as I know, its they are running the Bham to Scotland trains with Coach D as standard class. Its only the Euston-Chester/Wales Supervoyager services that have Coach D as first, generally as they are 2x221 at least until Crewe/Chester - running 8xSC and 2xFC would be horrifying to Virgins management

 

[theblackwatch]

1S40 - the 1330 Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh today was formed of a refreshed Virgin West Coast Voyager. Are there many West Coast trains being used by XC - and are they on loan or just a short-term swap?

A VWC Voyager went south on Cross Country on Saturday, so at a guess this was the same set returning north.

 

[Mojo]

Virgin actually runs that service - Bham to Scotland via Crewe WCML - not AXC.

You must be thinking of a different service, as 1S40 was definately XC and it didn't run via Crewe, it went up the East Coast via Leeds. Staff on board were also XC and it's on TRUST as business sector 27 which is CrossCountry.

 

[350401]

Ah...via ECML! I know that Virgin *do* run a regular Bham New St to Scotland service via the WCML with Class 221 voyagers, but forget that AXC do run a similar service via the ECML. One of the few cases of genuine competition in the network?

Didn't realise the VWC loan AXC class 221 units? Assuming you mean refreshed in terms of shop being in what is now Coach B, in between the FC/SC carriage and the normal SC carriage? Not refreshed in terms of missing its shop and having another 16 seats crammed in (the AXC 'refurb')!