WTT Differences

[MerlinRail 804]

Was looking at some old WTTs on the Network Rail archive website, and noticed that there were quite a few times where a timing was marked with something like “Public timing 4 minutes earlier” or something like that.

Why tell the passengers a completely different time to the drivers and signallers? I’m sure there’s a good reason, but surely it overcomplicates things a bit?

 

[Class15]

Was looking at some old WTTs on the Network Rail archive website, and noticed that there were quite a few times where a timing was marked with something like “Public timing 4 minutes earlier” or something like that.

Why tell the passengers a completely different time to the drivers and signallers? I’m sure there’s a good reason, but surely it overcomplicates things a bit?

It basically avoids delay repay when the public time is several minutes later than the actual time. No idea why the other way round…

 

[jfollows]

Advertising an earlier departure time means that the train can depart at the advertised time, not the working time, which means it’s more likely to reach its next stopping point on time.

 

[Oxfordblues]

The Up Highland Sleeper is due to arrive at Euston at 07:47 but it's advertised as 08:00. This gives leeway in the event of late-running so it can be up to 13 minutes late but still be "on time". Avanti West Coast would save a few quid in delay-repay by adopting a similar approach.

 

[jfollows]

The Up Highland Sleeper is due to arrive at Euston at 07:47 but it's advertised as 08:00. This gives leeway in the event of late-running so it can be up to 13 minutes late but still be "on time". Avanti West Coast would save a few quid in delay-repay by adopting a similar approach.

Yes, but the “headline” times, already worsened by additional stops in the last change, would get even worse. I agree it makes sense for the sleeper.

 

[MerlinRail 804]

Advertising an earlier departure time means that the train can depart at the advertised time, not the working time, which means it’s more likely to reach its next stopping point on time.

Why not add those times to the working timetable too? I understand for a 30 second difference, but not several minutes

The Up Highland Sleeper is due to arrive at Euston at 07:47 but it's advertised as 08:00. This gives leeway in the event of late-running so it can be up to 13 minutes late but still be "on time". Avanti West Coast would save a few quid in delay-repay by adopting a similar approach.

Again, why wouldn’t they just add a couple minutes of allowances at the end of each service?

 

[jfollows]

Why not add those times to the working timetable too? I understand for a 30 second difference, but not several minutes


Again, why wouldn’t they just add a couple minutes of allowances at the end of each service?

Let’s make Manchester-London be 2h30m, just like it was in 1966! Some progress has to be seen to justify the newer trains.
Typical departure times are advertised 1 minute earlier, in more recent working timetables this shows as a lower case p between the hours and minutes. It’s unusual to be much more than this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Jan 2025 ==

Also, if you add too many minutes at the end, you can cause havoc to ticket sites - they have you get off the through train and change to a local one at places like Stockport because the advertised times show the local train to be quicker. The public timetable has to have some kind of anchor in reality.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

All the ex-Stockport TfW services at Piccadilly are advertised to arrive 2 minutes after their WTT arrival, except on Sundays where it varies between 4 and 0 minutes misalignment.

 

[hexagon789]

Let’s make Manchester-London be 2h30m, just like it was in 1966!

2h40 was the standard timing in 1966 (ditto to Liverpool), the Pullmans were about 5 mins less. So even longer!

But very much an improvement for its time.

Some progress has to be seen to justify the newer trains.

I agree and I think the present arrangement gives a reasonable balance of stops, connectivity and journey times. 2h06-2h13 three times per hour is miles better than 2h40 mostly only every two-hours almost 60 years ago.

 

[30907]

Why not add those times to the working timetable too? I understand for a 30 second difference, but not several minutes

It depends. Sometimes it's to keep the public times at the regular interval when for whatever reason one train will normally run slightly later. Or it may be to make sure the train isn't delayed by last minute passengers or by waiting a potential connection. The longstanding rule is that trains should leave at the advertised time wherever possible.

Two examples from the steam age:
1. The SR overnight newspaper/passenger trains were consistently advertised to leave their London terminus 5min early by the WTT.

2. Wareham on a summer Saturday: the 1.20pm to Swanage was advertised to leave at 1.13pm. In between the 10.30 from Waterloo was booked to call 1.14-1.17.
It was essential for the Swanage train to leave right time in order to avoid delaying the 1.23pm Swanage-Waterloo at Corfe, but if the 10.30 was to time leaving at 1.13 might delay it.

(Other countries do/did it differently - timetables were littered with the "dot-in-circle" symbol followed by "train P12345 does not wait for/connect with train D6789.")

 

[Route115?]

I think that may be one reason why late night trains are shown as set down only at some stations - they can leave early.

You can add time at the final destination (often it is). The trouble is that you can't reduce the dwell time in the public tt to less than zero. so its harder to "massage" delays at intermediare reporting points.

I remember in the 80s always rushing for a train out of Marylebone & being furious when it always departed late. When I checked the WTT I understood why. As mentioned I think that it was to maintain a clock face departure pattern.

 

[jfollows]

I think that may be one reason why late night trains are shown as set down only at some stations - they can leave early.

You can add time at the final destination (often it is). The trouble is that you can't reduce the dwell time in the public tt to less than zero. so its harder to "massage" delays at intermediare reporting points.

I remember in the 80s always rushing for a train out of Marylebone & being furious when it always departed late. When I checked the WTT I understood why. As mentioned I think that it was to maintain a clock face departure pattern.

I think it’s more about not needing to provide alternative transport - if services only set down that is.

 

[MatthewHutton]

I think it’s more about not needing to provide alternative transport - if services only set down that is.

And the number of people who want to go from Nuneaton or wherever to Manchester at midnight is probably ~0 anyway.

 

[whoosh]

A bit out of date now, (but a freight train could be a culprit still in parts of the country) but when Eurostar used part of the Southeastern network on its way to Waterloo, it would run later inbound to London if it had an Ashford call. In those hours, the 'standard hourly pattern' had to be adjusted to accommodate the Eurostar, but advertised times at many of the stations were kept the same so as to advertise 'at xx and xx past each hour' throughout the day.


Conversely, sometimes a standard pattern will be broken so that an advertised later arrival will mean the train can be classed as off-peak - for example an advertised arrival time of 1000 in a London Terminal means cheap Day returns and one day travelcards can be used. In this example all the other trains of the day might arrive at 58 minutes past the hour, but the 0958 arrival have an advertised arrival of 1000.

 

[Harpo]

I think that may be one reason why late night trains are shown as set down only at some stations - they can leave early.

Especially if the late night engineering allowances are a worst case scenario which rarely uses them all.

I’ve know many instances of a very early midpoint arrival due to unused allowances (maybe slow line running), a long wait for time and then a delay through single line working and a late arrival at the destination.

You can either advertise early which becomes a connectional/compensation risk, or advertise pick-up early and brief staff not to enforce it, but that message is hard to get through!

Another ‘advertised earlier’ scenario is using the arrival time only if there is a dwell of a minute or more. A useful way of running with a bit in hand.