WSMR: One year on

[merlodlliw]

It was indeed excellent while it lasted, there's argument about the recession, but this did play a part, perhaps a bigger problem was the price hike of diesel,the Sunday blockages did not help, but fair play W/S used the trains on these days,Wrexham is not a big area, but it was a starting point from the largest town in North Wales, huge Telford never gained the custom for W/S, nor did Shrewsbury.

The non compi only raised its head keeping W/S out of Birmingham New St when plans were in motion to commence , again W/S instead of throwing in the towel went via the other route.

It is mentioned in good spirit if only ATW had three return trains a day,they may have matched W/S satisfaction, but in fact ATW run one loco hauled open access service a day WAG Express 1, however this service has never gained a satisfaction to equal W/S, which incidentally the Welsh Govt Minister IWJ wanted WAG1 modelled on after using a W/S service. Nor has the WAG Express ever attracted premier class passengers of more than a handful a journey. Take away the £millions of WG subsidy & ATW/DB would kill it immediate.

my opinion

Bob

 

[CC 72100]

I never got to experience WSMR on a 'good' day. My only experience was a return to London on the ex-VT West Coast set, which actually was a bit rough around the edges. Add to that the 1 and a half hour delay on the way back, it didn't leave me with the best impression of a company who everyone knew was so much better.

Saying that, my dad enjoyed a couple of returns to London with them, and they are missed. Maybe they were actually a bit bold and a bit different with such a passanger-focussed, quality operation, which prehaps was their downfall, and should have focussed more on getting bums on seats. Anyway, sorely missed, but at least the fact that their refurbished stock is still in daily use as Chiltern's premier product is a bit of a testament to 3/4 years of hard work.

 

[martinsh]

Define what "Rush Hour" is on Cross Country Trains!

A period which is as long as Arriva can possibly make it !

 

[Cherry_Picker]

One good thing that came out of WSMR's demise seems to be the takings of the public houses of Wrexham going off the chart this weekend, if the tales of the WSMR staff reunion are to be believed!

 

[tbtc]

The non compi only raised its head keeping W/S out of Birmingham New St when plans were in motion to commence

AIUI it was part of the terms and conditions of the Virgin franchise, when awarded.

It wasn't thrown up as a roadblock when WSMR applied to run services, it was already there.

Anyone wanting to run through Birmingham would presumably have done their homework and realised that they wouldn't be allowed to stop there (and tap into that ORCATS money).

 

[Eagle]

Define what "Rush Hour" is on Cross Country Trains!

Well, it starts at around 8am, and runs through till about... Sunday.

 

[Terrafire]

I never got to experience WSMR on a 'good' day. My only experience was a return to London on the ex-VT West Coast set, which actually was a bit rough around the edges. Add to that the 1 and a half hour delay on the way back, it didn't leave me with the best impression of a company who everyone knew was so much better.

Saying that, my dad enjoyed a couple of returns to London with them, and they are missed. Maybe they were actually a bit bold and a bit different with such a passanger-focussed, quality operation, which prehaps was their downfall, and should have focussed more on getting bums on seats. Anyway, sorely missed, but at least the fact that their refurbished stock is still in daily use as Chiltern's premier product is a bit of a testament to 3/4 years of hard work.

Yes, unfortunately travellers are very price-conscious in this country, unlike some others (Japan springs to mind), and generally won't pay more for nice furnishings or good customer service. WSMR obviously recognised this, but then charged less for nice furnishing and good customer service instead! Financial gravity was always going to catch up...

 

[Donny Dave]

AIUI it was part of the terms and conditions of the Virgin franchise, when awarded.

It was included in the franchise by the DfT as they wanted to protect Virgin West Coast from competition following the WCRM. Not so much that other TOCs were not allowed to conduct an ORCATS raid, more so that Virgin could (eventually) pay a premium back to the DfT

Incedentally, WSMR did "win" an ORCATS raid of sorts when London - Telford/Shrewsbury/Wrexham Route: Birmingham tickets were opened up to allow them to get some revenue. The argument from WSMR was that since they called at Tame Bridge Parkway, and was in the Birmingham Stations group in the routing guide, they should be entitled to some income from those tickets. Before that concession, anyone with such a ticket could use a WSMR service, but they gained no revenue from them. Unfortunately, it was too little, too late to stop them from going under.

PS. The website is probably active as WSMR paid for the domain and hosting for several years in advance. If the hosting provider was to close the website early for no good reason, they would be in breach on contract, and the liquidators of WSMR would be able to sue them, and possibly get another penny in the pound for the creditors.

 

[Eagle]

The argument from WSMR was that since they called at Tame Bridge Parkway, and was in the Birmingham Stations group in the routing guide...

Not so. First, Tame Bridge Parkway isn't in the Birmingham routeing group (it's in the Walsall group); however, Aston is in the Birmingham routeing group and WSMR passed through Aston nonstop.

However, I think you're confusing routeing groups and ticketing groups; The "Birmingham Stns" ticketing group consists of only the central three stations, and being as WSMR didn't call at any of them they weren't entitled to any revenue from tickets to "Birmingham Stns". What they may have gotten (I'm not sure if they did or not) is a concession from tickets that the routeing guide permitted via the Birmingham routeing group which would be valid on WSMR services. That's all.

 

[Terrafire]

Not so. First, Tame Bridge Parkway isn't in the Birmingham routeing group (it's in the Walsall group); however, Aston is in the Birmingham routeing group and WSMR passed through Aston nonstop.

However, I think you're confusing routeing groups and ticketing groups; The "Birmingham Stns" ticketing group consists of only the central three stations, and being as WSMR didn't call at any of them they weren't entitled to any revenue from tickets to "Birmingham Stns". What they may have gotten (I'm not sure if they did or not) is a concession from tickets that the routeing guide permitted via the Birmingham routeing group which would be valid on WSMR services. That's all.

Yes, basically they became entitled, after the decision, to revenue from Route:Birmingham tickets which had earlier been thought to exclude them. I have no doubt they were intended to do so, but it wasn't the first time the NRG has tripped up the unwary.

 

[merlodlliw]

AIUI it was part of the terms and conditions of the Virgin franchise, when awarded.

It wasn't thrown up as a roadblock when WSMR applied to run services, it was already there.

Anyone wanting to run through Birmingham would presumably have done their homework and realised that they wouldn't be allowed to stop there (and tap into that ORCATS money).

Going through everything on application, The ORR never mentioned this to W/S or seemed to know anything about it, it only raised its head when VT mentioned it to the ORR and then ORR then went through its systems and apologised to W/S saying due to the non compi coming to light,refusal via New St would be certain.

I agree the non compi was in existence, but ORR had forgotten it, this is absolute fact, I saw this letter from ORR at a meeting of stakeholders in Wrexham. That is why W/S instead of throwing in the towel,changed its route via Parkway.

Bob

 

[calc7]

I'm sat on the 0837 from Marylebone waiting for it to depart. The loss of service is disappointing for the people of Wrexham/Shropshire, but at least this fantastic stock has been retained.

 

[Mr Spock]

Going through everything on application, The ORR never mentioned this to W/S or seemed to know anything about it, it only raised its head when VT mentioned it to the ORR and then ORR then went through its systems and apologised to W/S saying due to the non compi coming to light,refusal via New St would be certain.

I agree the non compi was in existence, but ORR had forgotten it, this is absolute fact, I saw this letter from ORR at a meeting of stakeholders in Wrexham. That is why W/S instead of throwing in the towel,changed its route via Parkway.

Bob

Virgin only raised the matter under instruction from the DFT who said that if they did not object they would be in breach of their franchise agreement.

You cannot blame Virgin for ORR incompetence if they did not realise that the MOC was there.

 

[TDK]

One good thing that came out of WSMR's demise seems to be the takings of the public houses of Wrexham going off the chart this weekend, if the tales of the WSMR staff reunion are to be believed!

Yes indeed, there were 50 of us all meeting up for a reunion and catching up on who is now doing what
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AIUI it was part of the terms and conditions of the Virgin franchise, when awarded.

It wasn't thrown up as a roadblock when WSMR applied to run services, it was already there.

Anyone wanting to run through Birmingham would presumably have done their homework and realised that they wouldn't be allowed to stop there (and tap into that ORCATS money).

But they let ATW in International though :roll:

 

[tbtc]

But they let ATW in International though :roll:

How does extending the Aberystwyth - New Street service to Birmingham International impact upon the London - Birmingham market (that the moderation of competition applied to)? It was a sensible move which meant a platform at New Street wasn't occupied for ages by a terminating 158.

New Street - International is served by Virgin/ Cross Country/ London Midland, it's not a "protected" market AFAIK.

 

[TDK]

How does extending the Aberystwyth - New Street service to Birmingham International impact upon the London - Birmingham market (that the moderation of competition applied to)? It was a sensible move which meant a platform at New Street wasn't occupied for ages by a terminating 158.

New Street - International is served by Virgin/ Cross Country/ London Midland, it's not a "protected" market AFAIK.

London is also served by Virgin & LM but unfortunately WSMR were not allowed to compete, I know and other posters know you were completely WSMR biased. So if a passenger gets on an ATW train from Birmingham Interntional to New Street or Wolvo ATW get nothing then? It was a softener by VT letting ATW into international for other reasons of which you probabaly know!

 

[tbtc]

London is also served by Virgin & LM but unfortunately WSMR were not allowed to compete, I know and other posters know you were completely WSMR biased. So if a passenger gets on an ATW train from Birmingham Interntional to New Street or Wolvo ATW get nothing then? It was a softener by VT letting ATW into international for other reasons of which you probabaly know!

I didn't buy into the whole "fairytale" about WSMR, no. It should make people realise that the other Open Access companies are heavily propped up by the ORCATS money (e.g. London - Doncaster/York), certainly in the early years of operation.

Of course ATW get a share of the Birmingham International - Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton "flow", but that's not a "protected" flow as far as I am aware.

The idea that Virgin "allowed" ATW to run on Network Rail's tracks beyond New Street to International (as "payback" for ATW allowing Virgin over Network Rail's tracks to Wrexham?) is pretty, but the reality is that International made a better place for the ATW 158s to "lay over" than New Street did (since BHM is not suited to units taking up a platform for a long period).

 

[merlodlliw]

I didn't buy into the whole "fairytale" about WSMR, no. It should make people realise that the other Open Access companies are heavily propped up by the ORCATS money (e.g. London - Doncaster/York), certainly in the early years of operation.

Of course ATW get a share of the Birmingham International - Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton "flow", but that's not a "protected" flow as far as I am aware.

The idea that Virgin "allowed" ATW to run on Network Rail's tracks beyond New Street to International (as "payback" for ATW allowing Virgin over Network Rail's tracks to Wrexham?) is pretty, but the reality is that International made a better place for the ATW 158s to "lay over" than New Street did (since BHM is not suited to units taking up a platform for a long period).

Now to clarify, ATW itself offered two paths in/out of Wrexham to VT,without these paths VT could not have run its London service.
There was absolute no question of ATW & VT ganging up to strangle W/S on this service. The key ATW person who was behind this was also the self same person who was behind the ill fated ATW 158 to London farce, and I am pleased to say got his fingers well & truly burned on that spoiler.


Bob

 

[Gareth Marston]

Unaware of any lengthy platform occupying by ATW at New St pre Dec 08. It often turned in 3 mins when it did come through and very frequently turned at Wolves with no info for passengers stuck at New St.

The current tt sees an ATW arrival at New st after the westbound service leaves. The whole Wales and Border split from Central was very poorly thought out and resourced and caused the notorious Cambrian punctuality problems. WG funded 2 extra 158 units above the franchise agreement for ATW in 07 effectively these 2 units spend the day between New St and INTL despite being purchased to alleviate overcrowding in the core franchise area. The ATW crews say they often cart fresh air in the off peak to INTL except when somethings on at the NEC as the service is so frequent

 

[TDK]

I didn't buy into the whole "fairytale" about WSMR, no. It should make people realise that the other Open Access companies are heavily propped up by the ORCATS money (e.g. London - Doncaster/York), certainly in the early years of operation.

Of course ATW get a share of the Birmingham International - Birmingham New Street - Wolverhampton "flow", but that's not a "protected" flow as far as I am aware.

The idea that Virgin "allowed" ATW to run on Network Rail's tracks beyond New Street to International (as "payback" for ATW allowing Virgin over Network Rail's tracks to Wrexham?) is pretty, but the reality is that International made a better place for the ATW 158s to "lay over" than New Street did (since BHM is not suited to units taking up a platform for a long period).

They did this for a number of years, why wait for so long to "let" ATW run to International? Surely by taking money from VT they must have wanted something for their loss? It isn't rocket science. So, International is better for the 158's to spin but it took over 10 years for VT to realise this I don't think so!
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The ATW crews say they often cart fresh air in the off peak to INTL except when somethings on at the NEC as the service is so frequent

And they still get paid to run with no passengers aboard as confirmed, it's alright for some but not for others

 

[Donny Dave]

Not so. First, Tame Bridge Parkway isn't in the Birmingham routeing group (it's in the Walsall group); however, Aston is in the Birmingham routeing group and WSMR passed through Aston nonstop.

My apologies, Wrong station

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Unaware of any lengthy platform occupying by ATW at New St pre Dec 08. It often turned in 3 mins when it did come through and very frequently turned at Wolves with no info for passengers stuck at New St.

The current tt sees an ATW arrival at New st after the westbound service leaves. The whole Wales and Border split from Central was very poorly thought out and resourced and caused the notorious Cambrian punctuality problems. WG funded 2 extra 158 units above the franchise agreement for ATW in 07 effectively these 2 units spend the day between New St and INTL despite being purchased to alleviate overcrowding in the core franchise area. The ATW crews say they often cart fresh air in the off peak to INTL except when somethings on at the NEC as the service is so frequent

If you looks at the revenue and journey increases for International right through to Salop and beyond (which obviously you cant !) - there are substantial increases in volume and cash. BH Int makes a lot of sense on the northbound as opposed to changing at New Street - choice of seats to begin with ! A suitable extension in my opinion - even Wales and West had a few starters there "back in the day"......

 

[dvboy]

I don't see your point? Virgin already run Voyager's on selected London to Wolverhampton services - it wouldn't be that much of a bind to extend some to Shrewsbury.

Which WVH-EUS services are run by Voyagers? I assume none at peak times as all the time I use them they are Pendolinos.

 

[TDK]

! A suitable extension in my opinion - even Wales and West had a few starters there "back in the day"......

Wales and West was before moderation of competition however it is as you say a suitable extension bur that does not detract from the fact that it is OK for one but not the other.

 

[merlodlliw]

Wales and West was before moderation of competition however it is as you say a suitable extension bur that does not detract from the fact that it is OK for one but not the other.

One of the quirks of Birmingham to Salop Sunday trains is every service is run by the Welsh Franchise(ATW),many of them run entirely within the Midlands..
The only other operator was W/S on that line.

Bob

 

[All Line Rover]

Which WVH-EUS services are run by Voyagers? I assume none at peak times as all the time I use them they are Pendolinos.

I don't know the specific services (as I don't have access to that information), but a number of services on the EBW route are now Super Voyagers because Virgin transferred some Pendolinos to the Birmingham > Scotland route.

 

[calc7]

Which WVH-EUS services are run by Voyagers? I assume none at peak times as all the time I use them they are Pendolinos.

AlterEgo provided this information when I asked this question some time ago:

0620 RUG-EUS
0803 EUS-BHM
0950 BHM-EUS
1143 EUS-BHM (Double Voyager)
1330 BHM-EUS
1523 EUS-WVH
1745 WVH-EUS
2003 EUS-WVH

 

[Eagle]

I don't know the specific services (as I don't have access to that information), but a number of services on the EBW route are now Super Voyagers because Virgin transferred some Pendolinos to the Birmingham > Scotland route.

You can check on the advanced mode of websites like Open Train Times what type of train any service is booked to be (listed under "Technical").

 

[SprinterMan]

You can check on the advanced mode of websites like Open Train Times what type of train any service is booked to be (listed under "Technical").

Open Train Times isn't working

 

[matt]

Open Train Times isn't working

Try it again I have fixed the link