Wrong ticket issued online....etc

[ihe]

This tale involves 2 encounters with the same ticket inspector.

Historical background July 2014

July 2014 I was travelling from Leeds to an interview in London. As soon as I boarded I sought out the ticket inspector (her name is NP) explained that I had booked online but hadn't been able to pick up the tickets and she said she would come round to me. Upon susbsequent inspection, she asked for my name and proof of address for an unpaid fare. I gave my name and offered my address and said I don't have to give proof of address. She said "Fine you don't have to travel either" and walked away.

I then realized she was probably going to get me thrown off the train at Doncaster so I found her and offered her my address, she refused to accept it and said I had an attitude. Realizing I might miss my interview I swallowed my pride and apologised and offered my address. She still refused. We got to Doncaster, 2 police officers boarded the train and asked me to disembark. I got my bags and told them I bought a valid ticket, they said "She wants you off the train sir". I asked them to plead with her to let me travel they said that that the train was going to be held up because she wanted me off it.

I disembarked. As soon as the train one of the officers stayed to look after my bag while the other took me to the ticket office. Under his supervision my booking was retrieved and because it was valid for the train I had been removed from documentation permitting me to travel was issued.

The issue at hand

In mid August I made (on the same day and time) 4 bookings on the East Coast website to travel Kings Cross to London on the 23:30 service on 12/9, 19/9, 26/9 and 3rd October respectively. My first 3 journey's passed without incident. On 3/10/2014 I arrived at the station at 23:15 but was unable to collect my ticket from the machine. I located the after hours ticket window at Kings X expecting to present my credit card and be issued my ticket. The clerk instead asked for my ticket reference. I gave it to him and after looking it up he said - "Leeds - your tickets have been printed in the ticket machine". I told him they weren't and he told me to go back and pick them up.



At this point I wasn't sure whether he meant he had printed them or that he meant that I had when I had tried before. Either way I went back to the ticket machine area and searched both machines. No ticket. By now it was time to board and I hurried to get on my train.



The ticket inspector arrived and my heart sank as I recognized NP from 2 months ago. I told her I didn't have a ticket and was surprised when she invited me to give her a booking reference. I pulled up my booking and noticed that my fare was a lot more than I thought I had paid. Then my heart sank - that ticket had been for an earlier train. I had been issued with 3 tickets for the 23:30 the 4th one had been for the 20:05.



NP asks for the full fare 96.80 I decline so she issues an Unpaid fare form. I fill out the form and notes my refusal to give a date of birth. Then she says to me I've run into you before, I said yes last time the police put me on another train. She takes the form and loudly does an address check repeating all my information so that the oher passengers could hear. I was quite embarrassed and annoyed at that, then she smirked at me and said there's your ticket for the day and walked off.



I intend to challenge the unpaid fare notice. Firstly for being issued the wrong ticket online for my journey of 3/10 (no I did not notice the fare or the time because I was presented with just one amount to pay. Secondly because I was unable to get my tickets from either the ticket machine or the booking office on the day of travel and so did not know a priori that my ticket was not valid for that train. If I had known I would have stayed on in London and gone by coach the next day.



What are my chances of successfully disputing.



PS I have a record of the original incident with NP as I wrote to the police officers supervising inspector to praise them for assisting me back in July. I am contemplating a complaint vs NP as I think her behavior has become a bit too personal.


PPS Yes I did get sent a reminder of my journey for the day from

 

[yorkie]

As you booked online and appear to have made a mistake by booking the wrong train, it is correct to charge you a new ticket. You were not charged the "full fare" (£124.50) but were, in fact, charged the Super Off Peak fare (£96.80 for a single; a return would only have been £4 more), which is totally correct for being on the wrong train on an Advance ticket.

It's unclear why you were "unable" to collect the tickets from the machines, so it's difficult to comment on that, but certainly on the last journey it's a complete non-issue as you were given the 'benefit of the doubt' by being treated as having a ticket but for the wrong train.

You do have to provide your name & address unfortunately, so if you refuse, that's a byelaw offence. Staff should not broadcast your name & address and so you do have a valid complaint in that respect. I don't think you have to give your date of birth, but wait for someone else to confirm that.

I'd pay up, and make a complaint against the member of staff for broadcasting your name & address. If you're unhappy with EC's response go to http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . , she asked for my name and proof of address for an unpaid fare. I gave my name and offered my address and said I don't have to give proof of address.

And I don't have to give you any advice.

. . . . NP asks for the full fare 96.80 I decline . . . .

. . . . my refusal to give a date of birth. . . .

There's a pattern of refusing to comply, isn't there?

What are my chances of successfully disputing.

The probabilities depend on how you go about it and what you will class as 'success'. Passengers who have been in the wrong and/or uncooperative have received gestures of goodwill from Customer Services, despite the fact that these gestures undermine the work of their own frontline staff in protecting revenue. It's possible that you will receive some token, but in my estimation, not very likely.

I see no reason why you should receive compensation or if it is still unpaid, cancellation of the Unpaid Fare Notice.

Had you taken a more concillatory and cooperative approach towards the Guard on both occassions, preferably by being open and asking permission before boarding the trains, you might have been surprised at how much discretion might have been shown towards you.

 

[najaB]

I don't think you have to give your date of birth, but wait for someone else to confirm that.

The only reason that I can see it being required is if the name and address check comes back inconclusive - e.g. a close match of name and/or address to someone that the TOC already has on record for fare evasion. I also don't think they can compel you to provide it, but it may work against you if you don't.

 

[trentside]

I also don't think they can compel you to provide it, but it may work against you if you don't.

The byelaws only make reference to obtaining a name and address - but it would appear that most UPFN/PF forms now have a date of birth field. So no, I don't think you can be compelled to provide a DOB but again, failing to do so could be taken as un-cooperative behaviour or "attitude".

ihe - I concur with the advice from Yorkie - pay the unpaid fares notice, and make a complaint if you feel that the guard dealt with you in an unprofessional manner.

 

[DelayRepay]

I intend to challenge the unpaid fare notice. Firstly for being issued the wrong ticket online for my journey of 3/10 (no I did not notice the fare or the time because I was presented with just one amount to pay. Secondly because I was unable to get my tickets from either the ticket machine or the booking office on the day of travel and so did not know a priori that my ticket was not valid for that train.

You are normally shown the tickets you've booked on screen, and also normally receive a confirmation email. I think East Coast will claim that you booked the wrong train and they are not responsible for your mistake or your failure to check the confirmation email. It will be hard to argue with this.

I am curious as to why you couldn't collect your tickets from the machine for the first journey?

 

[Flamingo]

To summarise the advice;
- pay the UFN,
- make sure you have a valid ticket next time (being caught once is unfortunate, twice smacks of carelessness),
- drop the attitude next time, especially if you are taken to task by somebody who has the ability to bugger you about more than you can bugger them about
- don't behave like a spoiled kid and waste somebody's time in Customer Services having to read your whiny complaint and then print off the usual meaningless appearance of an apology and put it in an envelope when they could be doing something useful (like drinking tea).

 

[ihe]

You are normally shown the tickets you've booked on screen, and also normally receive a confirmation email. I think East Coast will claim that you booked the wrong train and they are not responsible for your mistake or your failure to check the confirmation email. It will be hard to argue with this.

I am curious as to why you couldn't collect your tickets from the machine for the first journey?

If I had made one booking I would have noticed it. I made 4 at the same time and was sent 4 different confirmation emails. I checked the dates were correct I didn't notice the time being wrong on any of them. It's supposed to be a system to enable people to travel not to profit from catching them out and the wrong ticket was twice the fare of the right one.

On my first trip I didn't have my booking reference (I don't have an internet enabled phone) so I thought I could get my ticket from the office and didn't know that it shut at 22:00.

If I could have picked up my tickets I would have known about the situation before boarding the train and then spoken to the guard and decided whether or not to travel. In the case of NP I definitely would not have. We are talking 96.80 for a 13.30 ticket that I mistakenly paid 29.00 for.

 

[Abpj17]

It sounds like you simply clicked the wrong time train; the site didn't give you the 'wrong' train.

Did the last set of tickets not print because you were trying to get them after the train had already departed?

May be worth complaining about her attitude (although from her perspective, you are a repeat offender) - she does sound a bit stroppy; but that it's hard to tell without an accurate transcript (words/tone) of both sides of a conversation

Did you not notice the 4 tickets cost vastly more than you were expecting??

 

[ihe]

And I don't have to give you any advice.
There's a pattern of refusing to comply, isn't there?

Here is some advice for you.

If you keep giving your DOB in situations where it is not required to people who don't need it and already have your Name, address and credit card number you may eventually find out the hard way that all that is needed is your mothers maiden name and someone has enough to instigate online fraud and identity theft on your behind.

The probabilities depend on how you go about it and what you will class as 'success'. Passengers who have been in the wrong and/or uncooperative have received gestures of goodwill from Customer Services, despite the fact that these gestures undermine the work of their own frontline staff in protecting revenue.

Demanding 124.00 from somebody whom you know (or can easily find out) has paid for their ticket on the actual service that they boarded isn't protecting revenue. It's more like theft.

Had you taken a more concillatory and cooperative approach towards the Guard on both occassions, preferably by being open and asking permission before boarding the trains you might have been surprised at how much discretion might have been shown towards you.

2 Questions for you. Based on some facts.

1. Given that we usually don't know apriori who or where the guard is and I was allowed through the ticket barrier what exactly is your problem with a passenger seeking out the guard at the earliest opportunity and explaining that he wasn't able to collect his ticket.

2. How does being concilliatory and cooperative help when the person has already decided to give you an unpaid fare notice. What exactly does that get you. A ticket written out in the best handwriting.

Lucky for me the 2 BTP officers thought differently. The phrase they used to describe a guard holding up a train so that she could remove a customer with who had bought a valid ticket for the service he was on was - a lack of common sense.

And you wonder why trains run late.

 

[trentside]

We are talking 96.80 for a 13.30 ticket that I mistakenly paid 29.00 for.

Unfortunately, regardless of the way you feel you were treated by the guard, she's adhered to the correct procedure with the amount she's charged you. It's your responsibility to ensure you've got the correct ticket - booking sites don't book you on the 'wrong' train unless you click the wrong thing. It pays to double check before you confirm your booking, as you've discovered.

A tip for the future would be collect your tickets in advance of travel (not just before) so you actually have a chance to resolve any problems. I realise this is not always possible, but it helps prevent you encountering difficulties again in the future.

 

[ihe]

It sounds like you simply clicked the wrong time train; the site didn't give you the 'wrong' train.

Did the last set of tickets not print because you were trying to get them after the train had already departed?

Maybe. I didn't know that at the time. Websites do have glitches and multiple booking scenarios are probably less often tested.

May be worth complaining about her attitude (although from her perspective, you are a repeat offender) - she does sound a bit stroppy; but that it's hard to tell without an accurate transcript (words/tone) of both sides of a conversation

Given that she threw me off the train rather than look at the online booking on the first occasion I was actually pleasantly when she told me she would accept it. My guess is that they are under instructions to do so at because of the ticket office closure at that time.

I was only to happy to go online and retrieve the booking for her. The problem came when it was shown to be the for the wrong train. Of course I showed her the other bookings and explained but she went straight for the penalty fare and from past experience of dealing with her I knew there was no point saying anything.

So the only element of non-cooperation from me was when I confirmed that I was not giving a date of birth but of course by this time she had already decided to issue the unpaid fare notice so it was moot. It was then that she said our paths have crossed before - and I said yes - the officers you got to remove me from your train put me on the next one .

Either way it doesn't entitle her to broadcast my name and address to the entire carriage.

Interesting that I am consider to be a "repeat offender". I know you are not being like some of the others but it implies that trying to get penalty fares out of people who have paid for a ticket and are quite obviously not fare evaders is considered a legitimate business model. Then again I don't know if that is the business model - it might just be my bad luck to have run in to that type of ticket inspector twice.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unfortunately, regardless of the way you feel you were treated by the guard, she's adhered to the correct procedure with the amount she's charged you.

Well yes you are absolutely correct but as I mentioned by virtue of the written note of thanks to the BTP I have a written record of the first incident and now I have her name.

So let me recap. Se held up a train to remove a passenger who she knew had bought a valid ticket and the knock on effect of that was that 2 BTP officers spent an hour looking after my luggage and escorting me to get on the next train. I think there is mileage in letting her senior management know that even though she adhered to the correct procedure.

It's your responsibility to ensure you've got the correct ticket - booking sites don't book you on the 'wrong' train unless you click the wrong thing. It pays to double check before you confirm your booking, as you've discovered.

trent... websites are not infallible like that but even so it's just interesting that somebody who bought 4 tickets and mistakenly paid double for one is deemed worthy of further punishment.

A tip for the future would be collect your tickets in advance of travel (not just before) so you actually have a chance to resolve any problems. I realise this is not always possible, but it helps prevent you encountering difficulties again in the future.

Well I tried to collect all my tickets on my second journey but it would only give me the ones for that day.

 

[bb21]

Your sense of injustice is clouding your judgement, and going by your account of the incidents, that happens quite often too.

Accept that you made a mistake this time, and there are consequences for mistakes. Stop blaming the guard for your own mistake. You have no ground for appealing the UPFN.

I'm sure that's not what you want to hear, but the truth hurts sometimes.

 

[ihe]

Your sense of injustice is clouding your judgement, and going by your account of the incidents, that happens quite often too.

Accept that you made a mistake this time, and there are consequences for mistakes. Stop blaming the guard for your own mistake. You have no ground for appealing the UPFN.

I'm sure that's not what you want to hear, but the truth hurts sometimes.

There is no issue of clouded judgement . The issue with the guard is separate in fact I did not even tell her why I could not pick up my tickets because I knew what she was going to do.

Regarding the UPFN the issue is as follows.

Remember the ticket officer told me to go to the ticket machine because my tickets had been printed when in fact they had not.

My contract was to collect my tickets at Kings X station.
I arrived at the station in time to do that and despite using both ticket machine and the only ticket office in the station that was open I was not issued with my tickets. If I had been then I would have seen that I had missed my train and not boarded it believing that I had bought a valid ticket for it.

 

[najaB]

Maybe. I didn't know that at the time. Websites do have glitches and multiple booking scenarios are probably less often tested.

I work in IT and I can say that 99.9% of website 'problems' are caused by user mis-operation. Buying 4 tickets in one transaction isn't an edge-case and is highly unlikely to reveal a strange bug that results in one booking being made for a different time than the others, despite the user selecting the correct time.

I was only to happy to go online and retrieve the booking for her. The problem came when it was shown to be the for the wrong train. Of course I showed her the other bookings and explained but she went straight for the penalty fare...

Interesting that I am consider to be a "repeat offender". I know you are not being like some of the others but it implies that trying to get penalty fares...

You do realise that a UPFN is not a penalty fare in any sense of the term? It is effectively an invoice for a ticket and costs exactly the same as if if you had bought the ticket with cash at the time. You can read more about them if you think I'm making this up.

So let me recap. Se held up a train to remove a passenger who she knew had bought a valid ticket...

Did you have said ticket in your possession at the time? How did she know you hadn't given that ticket to your 'mate in the next carriage'?

trent... websites are not infallible like that but even so it's just interesting that somebody who bought 4 tickets and mistakenly paid double for one is deemed worthy of further punishment.

Website users are also not infallible. Just saying.

Well I tried to collect all my tickets on my second journey but it would only give me the ones for that day.

That I find very unusual - I've collected multiple sets of tickets on many occasions and never had any problems.

 

[SussexMan]

Either way it doesn't entitle her to broadcast my name and address to the entire carriage.

(my emphasis but your words)

This does sound shocking. To broadcast your name and address to the entire carriage means she must have shouted it out - I'm assuming she didn't use the PA system. If you were sitting in the middle of the carriage she would have had to make sure people about 10m away could have heard. If you were sitting at one end she would have had to have shouted so loud that people 20m away could have heard. Or is there just a possibility that you are exaggerating things when you say she broadcast it to the entire carriage? If so, what else might you be exaggerating?

 

[ihe]

I work in IT and I can say that 99.9% of website 'problems' are caused by user mis-operation. Buying 4 tickets in one transaction isn't an edge-case and is highly unlikely to reveal a strange bug that results in one booking being made for a different time than the others, despite the user selecting the correct time.

I work in IT too. A consultant but in my past 10 years as a software tester. I can say that 99.9% of website "problems" are caused by poor User Interface design but in 100% of the cases responsibility for that is off-loaded on to the human user.

For example why should I get 4 confirmation emails because I bought 4 tickets. If I buy 4 tickets on megabus.com I get one email and I can check everything there and then. But it's very easy to design any old crap and blame it on the user.

So tell me then. At what point does it start to become unwieldly. Supposing I bought 52 tickets... one for each week of the year. What then?
[/QUOTE]

Did you have said ticket in your possession at the time? How did she know you hadn't given that ticket to your 'mate in the next carriage'?
Website users are also not infallible. Just saying.

If you can ask for Id to issue a a UPFN you can ask for Id to verify an online booking. Just saying.

That I find very unusual - I've collected multiple sets of tickets on many occasions and never had any problems.

Unusual. Since you are an expert on ticket machine design as well. Ok tell me this.

You type in your reference to pick up tickets for a train that has departed. Should you

a) be issued the tickets anyway
b) be told that the train you booked for has already departed (possibly in addition to a)
c) be given a message "Unable to issue the tickets requested at this time".

Further question. If all you are given is (c) what should you conclude from that information.

Sh

 

[MikeWh]

To broadcast your name and address to the entire carriage means she must have shouted it out - I'm assuming she didn't use the PA system. If you were sitting in the middle of the carriage she would have had to make sure people about 10m away could have heard. If you were sitting at one end she would have had to have shouted so loud that people 20m away could have heard. Or is there just a possibility that you are exaggerating things when you say she broadcast it to the entire carriage? If so, what else might you be exaggerating?

I think it's quite clear that unless ihe subsequently spoke to every person in the carriage they won't know whether absolutely everyone heard. However, it is also very likely that the guard spoke up so that more people than should have needed to hear could indeed do so. I don't find claiming that the whole carriage could hear in such a circumstance much of an exaggeration.

However, ihe, it is also abundantly clear that you have a sense of injustice and that it is clouding your judgement. You have derided several very experienced members in this thread. Unfortunately you were in the wrong on the second occasion and the paperwork issued by the guard was 100% correct.

It's also possible that BTP have already communicated with her TOC and this resulted in the more concilliatory approach taken this time.

 

[ihe]

(my emphasis but your words)

This does sound shocking. To broadcast your name and address to the entire carriage means she must have shouted it out - I'm assuming she didn't use the PA system. If you were sitting in the middle of the carriage she would have had to make sure people about 10m away could have heard. If you were sitting at one end she would have had to have shouted so loud that people 20m away could have heard.

I was sitting about 3/4 of the way into the carriage and she walked past me so I had my back to her. The only reason I knew what was happening was because I heard my name and address being spelt out behind me.

Or is there just a possibility that you are exaggerating things when you say she broadcast it to the entire carriage? If so, what else might you be exaggerating?

Yes I exaggerated. It could have been heard by the last quarter of the carriage because that where I was sitting and thats how I heard it. What difference should that make. Should it
have been done to the hearing of anybody at all esp those who had seen the incident.?

Yes I exaggerated. Do you support the hounding of honest ticket buying passengers for penalty fares. If not why the question.

 

[Abpj17]

Can on-train staff look up booking systems??

(Still infinitely more likely that user error/not checking lead to wrong time train)

Showing the booking on the screen may exist; but it's hardly rocket science to mock up a fake copy of a webpage/email either. I wouldn't expect RPI to accept it, only to use the reference to check in their system (if they had access to it).

 

[najaB]

Well I tried to collect all my tickets on my second journey but it would only give me the ones for that day.

I was thinking some more about this and, in my experience, if you have more than one booking made with the same credit/debit card, you have to type in the booking reference to retrieve the tickets. Are you saying that you entered three booking references but the machine would only print the tickets for one of them?

 

[ian959]

Well we can pretty much agree that you failed the "attitude test" pretty badly just judging on your posts here and that is what probably resulted in you being removed from the train. All your sense of injustice is doing is clouding the basic issues that you did not produce a valid ticket for the train you were on when required to do so.

Even the fact that you titled the thread "wrong ticket issued online etc" is misleading. You made the booking, you most likely selected the wrong train for 1 out of 4 tickets yet this does not seem to be your fault? You selected the train, it is your fault so how do you think you can object to the unpaid fare notice? All the rest of the story is basically irrelevant to that fact. You did not have a ticket for the train that you were on, simple as that.

If, and frankly it is a big if based upon the"attitude test", the ticket inspector did in fact loudly does an address check then that is a separate matter and certainly would be worth complaining to EC about. However, I would suggest that if you chose to raise that complaint, you consider very strongly the need to drop the attitude and stick to pure facts.

You have already received some excellent advice, I suggest you listen to it and consider the "attitude test".

 

[DelayRepay]

On my first trip I didn't have my booking reference (I don't have an internet enabled phone) so I thought I could get my ticket from the office and didn't know that it shut at 22:00.

So let me recap. Se held up a train to remove a passenger who she knew had bought a valid ticket and the knock on effect of that was that 2 BTP officers spent an hour looking after my luggage and escorting me to get on the next train. I think there is mileage in letting her senior management know that even though she adhered to the correct procedure.

May I ask how she knew you had bought a valid ticket, when you couldn't produce the ticket for inspection, and you couldn't provide the booking reference which suggests you didn't have any proof of booking such as a print out of the email?

I have to say that if I had been in the situation where I had been removed from a train by the police as a result of not having a ticket, I would be extra careful in future.

You said you would have got the coach if you knew what was going to happen; maybe it would be best to travel by coach every time in future as you do seem to be particularly unlucky when it comes to railway ticketing matters...

 

[bb21]

This is going around in circles. Let me spell it out for you in simple terms.

You had no valid ticket for travel on that train. You were issued with an invoice for the fare. If you refuse to pay it, you will be prosecuted for a Section 5 offence and you will almost certainly lose, so criminal record. The fact that your ticket for a different train was not printed is irrelevant.

Now the decision is yours but I strongly suggest that you do not let your heart rule your head.

If you want to complain about the guard that is a separate matter to you paying your fare.

 

[yorkie]

Yes I exaggerated. Do you support the hounding of honest ticket buying passengers for penalty fares. If not why the question.

The charge was correct - you were charged the cheapest available single ticket. Had you spotted the error earlier, you could have exchanged the ticket for no more than a £10 admin fee (which may have been waived if you politely explained the situation and had it been noticed your ticket cost £29 and the train you wanted to catch was only £13).

As for getting 4 emails for 1 transaction, the East Coast website does not do that. Perhaps you used a different website? In which case take up that matter with them.

As for the claim that tickets for the 2005 would not be printed at 2315, that is false. Tickets can be printed after travel (there is a limit but it's several days!), so if the tickets did not print, it's unclear what the reason for that may be, but it is irrelevant as you were charged the same price that you would have been charged had you presented a ticket for the 2005 train.

You might not like the advice we're telling you, but it is the correct advice.

 

[bb21]

From the message I received it was clear that the OP is not going to listen so we are all wasting our time and the thread is therefore locked.