Wrong Ticket Fare - Any information is greatly appreciated

[Samozz2003]

First of all I'd like to fully acknowledge the fact that it is entirely my fault that I purchased the wrong ticket despite it being a genuine mistake and I do realise that this is technically an offence.

Here's some information about my situation, I usually purchase a return ticket to and from Selly Oak and Birmingham New Street should I wish to go into town for whatever reason. Today I found myself on the University of Birmingham Campus instead, so I bought a return ticket between University Station and Birmingham New Street at the ticket machines there. Upon the return from Birmingham New Street I made a foolish mistake and missed the stop I supposed to depart at (University Station) simply out habit as I usually journey to the following station (Selly Oak Station). The journey to Selly Oak added an extra two minutes to my journey and would've cost me the exact same price for a return ticket, this is incredibly frustrating given I now have a £53.30 fine which will be £103.30 after 21 days if unpaid. I acknowledge that it is my fault and my fault alone and that as it stands it is my responsibility to pay the fine. However this is also my first ever offence, and I think it is an incredibly harsh fee for accidentally missing a stop and getting off at a station two minutes further, which also would've costed me the same price for a ticket. This is causing me a great deal of stress as I'm in a financially poor situation as of now

My question is: How likely would it it be that my appeal be accepted should I appeal this fine, given that I provide the west midlands railway service with the details above?

Any information is greatly appreciated and thank you for your time,

Sam.

 

[furlong]

Always appeal - there's nothing to lose - focussing primarily on the fact the fare was the same so you can claim they didn't lose any money so ought to have used their discretion and accepted the ticket.
You get three chances at appeal and the third one is more independent than the first two and we find the first two appeals are less willing to apply discretion than the third appeal so be prepared to use all three chances.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately you did not have a valid ticket for your journey so a Penalty Fare is an appropriate remedy for this. I agree with @furlong that it is always worth appealing, a well worded appeal might succeed and if nothing else it stops the clock on the 21 days to pay at the reduced rate so you effectively get longer to pay at the reduced rate.

It's always frustrating when somethig like this happens. It's like getting a parking or speeding tickets - usually inadvertent but hugely frustrating and a bit expensive.

 

[furlong]

Your appeal can be quite short - just the relevant things you've already written in your post here.

The Penalty Fare notice tells you how to appeal, and you need to say you are appealing under regulation 16(3)(d), namely that you believe there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, you should not be liable to pay the penalty fare. This is a discretionary reason for appeal.

If you want to work harder, you could check whether the Penalty Fares notices meet the regulations at the station where you began your journey, and if not, add that as an additional independent ground for appeal. (Most stations don't seem to comply with the letter of the regulations - we have other threads here showing how to do that type of appeal.)

 

[WesternLancer]

First of all I'd like to fully acknowledge the fact that it is entirely my fault that I purchased the wrong ticket despite it being a genuine mistake and I do realise that this is technically an offence.

Here's some information about my situation, I usually purchase a return ticket to and from Selly Oak and Birmingham New Street should I wish to go into town for whatever reason. Today I found myself on the University of Birmingham Campus instead, so I bought a return ticket between University Station and Birmingham New Street at the ticket machines there. Upon the return from Birmingham New Street I made a foolish mistake and missed the stop I supposed to depart at (University Station) simply out habit as I usually journey to the following station (Selly Oak Station). The journey to Selly Oak added an extra two minutes to my journey and would've cost me the exact same price for a return ticket, this is incredibly frustrating given I now have a £53.30 fine which will be £103.30 after 21 days if unpaid. I acknowledge that it is my fault and my fault alone and that as it stands it is my responsibility to pay the fine. However this is also my first ever offence, and I think it is an incredibly harsh fee for accidentally missing a stop and getting off at a station two minutes further, which also would've costed me the same price for a ticket. This is causing me a great deal of stress as I'm in a financially poor situation as of now

My question is: How likely would it it be that my appeal be accepted should I appeal this fine, given that I provide the west midlands railway service with the details above?

Any information is greatly appreciated and thank you for your time,

Sam.

Following the suggestions from people here you might want to post your draft appeal wording here for a check before you submit it.

 

[transportphoto]

If you want to work harder, you could check whether the Penalty Fares notices meet the regulations at the station where you began your journey, and if not, add that as an additional independent ground for appeal. (Most stations don't seem to comply with the letter of the regulations - we have other threads here showing how to do that type of appeal.)

I’d agree here. It’s a slam dunk penalty fare, however there may be technicalities which should make an appeal succeed. This is in addition to the compelling reason argument of the fare being the same.

£3.30 appears to be the fare from New Street to Selly Oak, rather than the PF being issued (as it perhaps should have been) based upon the fare from University to Selly Oak (£3.00). This may be an other grounds for appeal.

 

[furlong]

£3.30 appears to be the fare from New Street to Selly Oak, rather than the PF being issued (as it perhaps should have been) based upon the fare from University to Selly Oak (£3.00). This may be an other grounds for appeal.

A Penalty Fare is based on where the passenger boarded the train. No account is taken of any tickets covering part of the journey.

However you are right, this could be mentioned - "Further, it seems unfair to charge me again for the entirety of the journey I made when my ticket covered almost all of it." Not necessarily on the first appeal, but the OP might add "If you uphold this appeal and consider it appropriate, I am willing to pay an amount equivalent to a single between the final two stations".

 

[Samozz2003]

Welcome to the forum!

Unfortunately you did not have a valid ticket for your journey so a Penalty Fare is an appropriate remedy for this. I agree with @furlong that it is always worth appealing, a well worded appeal might succeed and if nothing else it stops the clock on the 21 days to pay at the reduced rate so you effectively get longer to pay at the reduced rate.

It's always frustrating when somethig like this happens. It's like getting a parking or speeding tickets - usually inadvertent but hugely frustrating and a bit expensive.

Thank you for your reply and the warm welcome, I am in the process of writing my appeal as we speak.

May I ask what you mean by "it stops the clock on the 21 days to pay"? Am I correct in assuming that my 21 days to pay the reduced fine is halted until my appeal is processed?

Thank you,

Sam.

 

[wilbers]

There was this thread (the outcome of which isn't known) which was also overtravel between the exact same stations, albeit for a different reason. The notable thing, is that penalty notice had £3 not £3.30 as the fare portion of the penalty.

Penalty Fare Notice Help Needed - Birmingham New Street to University, missed stop and got off train at Selly Oak 2 minutes after - 2nd Appeal Help

Hi there, Background Information: Me and my friend were travelling from University (Birmingham) to Birmingham New Street on an Open Return. That day we suddenly felt very tired in the afternoon and wanted to return to my friend's accomodation which is near University (Birmingham). When we got...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[AlterEgo]

May I ask what you mean by "it stops the clock on the 21 days to pay"? Am I correct in assuming that my 21 days to pay the reduced fine is halted until my appeal is processed?

Correct.

 

[Samozz2003]

Always appeal - there's nothing to lose - focussing primarily on the fact the fare was the same so you can claim they didn't lose any money so ought to have used their discretion and accepted the ticket.
You get three chances at appeal and the third one is more independent than the first two and we find the first two appeals are less willing to apply discretion than the third appeal so be prepared to use all three chances.

Your appeal can be quite short - just the relevant things you've already written in your post here.

The Penalty Fare notice tells you how to appeal, and you need to say you are appealing under regulation 16(3)(d), namely that you believe there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, you should not be liable to pay the penalty fare. This is a discretionary reason for appeal.

If you want to work harder, you could check whether the Penalty Fares notices meet the regulations at the station where you began your journey, and if not, add that as an additional independent ground for appeal. (Most stations don't seem to comply with the letter of the regulations - we have other threads here showing how to do that type of appeal.)

Thank you so much for your helpful responses, I appreciate them greatly.

I am writing my appeal as we speak and your information is worth so much to me.

Thank you so much,

Sam.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2024 ==

Correct.

Thank you so much!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2024 ==

There was this thread (the outcome of which isn't known) which was also overtravel between the exact same stations, albeit for a different reason. The notable thing, is that penalty notice had £3 not £3.30 as the fare portion of the penalty.

Penalty Fare Notice Help Needed - Birmingham New Street to University, missed stop and got off train at Selly Oak 2 minutes after - 2nd Appeal Help

Hi there, Background Information: Me and my friend were travelling from University (Birmingham) to Birmingham New Street on an Open Return. That day we suddenly felt very tired in the afternoon and wanted to return to my friend's accomodation which is near University (Birmingham). When we got...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thank you so much, I shall read this immediately!

 

[some bloke]

I might be tempted to write on any Penalty Fare appeal, at the start,

"Please give this proper attention, as I have heard that appeals are often only given proper attention at the third attempt"

and repeat it at the end.

 

[Titfield]

I might be tempted to write on any Penalty Fare appeal, at the start,

"Please give this proper attention, as I have heard that appeals are often only given proper attention at the third attempt"

and repeat it at the end.

I am sorry but I would disagree with this approach. Telling someone to do their job properly is highly unlikely to encourage them to use their discretion.

 

[Hadders]

I am sorry but I would disagree with this approach. Telling someone to do their job properly is highly unlikely to encourage them to use their discretion.

I agree, I would not use this wording.

 

[some bloke]

ĪI think it is an incredibly harsh fee for accidentally missing a stop and getting off at a station two minutes further, which also would've costed me the same price for a ticket. This is causing me a great deal of stress as I'm in a financially poor situation

Unfortunately you did not have a valid ticket for your journey so a Penalty Fare is an appropriate remedy for this.

It seems to me that a compelling reason for this not to stand is that a penalty fare where no extra was due is highly likely to be outside the stated purposes of the scheme.

If the purposes are to

- discourage deliberate fare evasion and

- reduce loss of revenue,

then I don't expect any government minister would have said they agreed with penalty fares in those circumstances.

Perhaps your student union might write to the company, and publicise the fact that there have been two (or more) cases, to try and make sure this doesn't happen to anyone else.


"The change [to £50 or £100 plus the fare] was put into place to ensure a more effective deterrent. This should reduce the cost of fare evasion from passengers travelling without a valid ticket while ensuring that honest, fare-paying passengers are not unfairly penalised. An estimated £240 million is lost annually due to fare evasion on GB railways. This change aims to reduce the burden on the taxpayer while ensuring that it is fair on the travelling public as well.

Staff who issue penalty fares are trained and authorised in the procedure and are allowed to use their discretion on whether to issue a penalty fare. This helps to mitigate the impact on those passengers whose intention was not to avoid paying but, for whatever reason, have a ticket that does not match their intended journey.

It is not in anyone’s interest for a TOC to operate a universally heavy-handed approach to all passengers travelling with an incorrect ticket. However, TOCs have a right and justifiable obligation to target those passengers who knowingly travel without a valid ticket. In those circumstances, it is right that the passenger without a ticket is appropriately penalised. This acts, among other things, as a deterrent. ...

To conclude, the vast majority of passengers who travel on our railways have the right ticket. If they do not, there are understandable circumstances. ...we believe that the increase in the penalty fare is a sensible measure to discourage travel without a valid ticket, because it is simply not fair on other passengers or the taxpayer."

Baroness Vere, Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport)
18 January 2023

https://hansard.parliament.uk/Lords/2023-01-18/debates/AC5F0F20-2B86-4FFF-ACD0-5D0A82E21857/Railways(PenaltyFares)(Amendment)Regulations2022?highlight=penalty%20fare%20regulations#contribution-C41A5122-231D-4383-A7C5-173676587A2A

"Penalty fares policy

To travel with us, you need a valid train ticket for your entire journey before you board, otherwise, you may need to pay a Penalty Fare.

By evading fares, it is not only unfair on paying customers, but it also stops funds being invested in improving the railway network, passenger journeys, and the service we provide.

To help eliminate fare evasion..."

Penalty fares

Don’t risk a fine, get your ticket before you go.

www.westmidlandsrailway.co.uk