Wrong railcard used by mistake

[lalandv]

Hi

my mum booked my train ticket on my behalf as I wasn’t able to access my own cards and book it myself, she accidentally chose a 16-17 railcard instead of a 16-25, as she hasn’t got the best vision and did it by mistake.

I was travelling from Taunton to Liverpool and was stopped at the gates in Birmingham and scanned my ticket and was asked for railcard, I showed my 16-25 railcard as I thought that’s what my ticket was booked with.

I was issued a penalty fare, however the guard said to appeal it as it was a mistake and I have no previous offences. My ticket is an open return however didn’t get checked on the outbound journey, so I didn’t think to double-check.

I am a student so it would be ideal to just have to pay for the new ticket fare instead of the penalty also, I was going to explain the situation on the appeal what should I include to avoid the penalty if possible?

 

[AlterEgo]

Just to clarify, this was issued at Birmingham New Street, after you’d arrived from Taunton but before you’d boarded the train to Liverpool? Where exactly on the station was this issued?

 

[John R]

Unless there is a technical reason why the PF was incorrectly issues (which is why @AlterEgo is asking the question above), you have done well to only get a Penalty Fare. In most cases we see, use of the wrong railcard, almost always offering a bigger discount, results in a referral for further investigation, and then a threat of prosecution. It also tends to result in a review of previous purchases to see if there is a pattern that maybe suggests any excuse given was false.

If you pay within 14 days then the penalty element is reduced to £50. If you do appeal (although if any appeal is on the grounds that it was an "honest mistake", I don't see it succeeding) then any amount paid would be refunded if the appeal is upheld.

 

[lalandv]

Just to clarify, this was issued at Birmingham New Street, after you’d arrived from Taunton but before you’d boarded the train to Liverpool? Where exactly on the station was this issued?

hi yes this was issued today at Birmingham new street, I was on my way back to Liverpool from
taunton. It was issued at the barriers between the zones from a revenue guard.

 

[Dai Corner]

You were also lucky to pay only the 50% discounted 16-17 fare for the Liverpool-Taunton-Birmingham legs of your journey instead of the 33% discounted 16-25 one. I'd pay the Penalty Fare quickly to obtain the £50 discount.

If you work out what you should have paid and what you actually paid you might find your not much out of pocket.

 

[AlterEgo]

hi yes this was issued today at Birmingham new street, I was on my way back to Liverpool from
taunton. It was issued at the barriers between the zones from a revenue guard.

When you say between the zones, what do you mean? Was this when you were trying to EXIT the barrier coming off the Taunton train, or when you were trying to ENTER it again to head for the Liverpool train?

 

[Trainman40083]

When you say between the zones, what do you mean? Was this when you were trying to EXIT the barrier coming off the Taunton train, or when you were trying to ENTER it again to head for the Liverpool train?

The joys of Birmingham New Street is that one of the bridges, you have to exit high numbered platforms to enter low numbered platforms. But at the other end of the station, you don't.

 

[lalandv]

Unless there is a technical reason why the PF was incorrectly issues (which is why @AlterEgo is asking the question above), you have done well to only get a Penalty Fare. In most cases we see, use of the wrong railcard, almost always offering a bigger discount, results in a referral for further investigation, and then a threat of prosecution. It also tends to result in a review of previous purchases to see if there is a pattern that maybe suggests any excuse given was false.

If you pay within 14 days then the penalty element is reduced to £50. If you do appeal (although if any appeal is on the grounds that it was an "honest mistake", I don't see it succeeding) then any amount paid would be refunded if the appeal is upheld.

When you say between the zones, what do you mean? Was this when you were trying to EXIT the barrier coming off the Taunton train, or when you were trying to ENTER it again to head for the Liverpool train?

Unless there is a technical reason why the PF was incorrectly issues (which is why @AlterEgo is asking the question above), you have done well to only get a Penalty Fare. In most cases we see, use of the wrong railcard, almost always offering a bigger discount, results in a referral for further investigation, and then a threat of prosecution. It also tends to result in a review of previous purchases to see if there is a pattern that maybe suggests any excuse given was false.

If you pay within 14 days then the penalty element is reduced to £50. If you do appeal (although if any appeal is on the grounds that it was an "honest mistake", I don't see it succeeding) then any amount paid would be refunded if the appeal is upheld.

the revenue guard had a look at my previous purchases and could see that i used my 16-25 railcard for them all and advised me to appeal, i may as well try and appeal anyway.

 

[furlong]

Sigh. The level of training displayed here.

Unless Birmingham New Street has miraculously become a Compulsory Ticket Area, how can the regulations ever permit a Penalty Fare to be issued for a journey between two stations before the passenger has even boarded the train at the first station?

 

[lalandv]

When you say between the zones, what do you mean? Was this when you were trying to EXIT the barrier coming off the Taunton train, or when you were trying to ENTER it again to head for the Liverpool train?

it was when i was trying to enter the barrier again to head for the Liverpool train.

 

[furlong]

There's even a clue on the notice itself, where it says it is authority "to finish" the journey. Well the journey in question hasn't even begun!

 

[lalandv]

There's even a clue on the notice itself, where it says it is authority "to finish" the journey. Well the journey in question hasn't even begun!

has it been issued incorrectly then?

 

[AlterEgo]

Sigh. The level of training displayed here.

Unless Birmingham New Street has miraculously become a Compulsory Ticket Area, how can the regulations ever permit a Penalty Fare to be issued for a journey between two stations before the passenger has even boarded the train at the first station?

Agreed. It's been issued contrary to the Regulations. Birmingham New Street is not a CTA as far as I'm aware.

 

[furlong]

@lalandv They don't appear to have issued it in accordance with the regulations. However you did do something wrong, so you'll need to weigh up the options. E.g. One approach might be a normal appeal on the lines you posted here first. Once that's rejected then attempt a second appeal on the grounds it was issued for the wrong amount, from and to the wrong stations, not in accordance with the regulations.

 

[lalandv]

@lalandv They don't appear to have issued it in accordance with the regulations. However you did do something wrong, so you'll need to weigh up the options. E.g. One approach might be a normal appeal on the lines you posted here first. Once that's rejected then attempt a second appeal on the grounds it was issued for the wrong amount, from and to the wrong stations, not in accordance with the regulations.

okay thank you for help, i will follow this process and keep you updated if you wish.

 

[Trainman40083]

Was the ticket a single ticket, Taunton to Liverpool or split ticket?

 

[lalandv]

Was the ticket a single ticket, Taunton to Liverpool or split ticket?

a split ticket, part of an open return

 

[John R]

a split ticket, part of an open return

Where was the split? And can you clarify by Open return what you mean. (There is no such ticket with that name.)

 

[AlterEgo]

Was the ticket a single ticket, Taunton to Liverpool or split ticket?

What relevance does this have to the OP's penalty fare?

 

[John R]

What relevance does this have to the OP's penalty fare?

If the split is at Birmingham they haven’t started their journey as they were outside the gateline. If it’s anywhere else then they have done. But if it’s after Birmingham then the fare should only have been to the split point.

That’s what I guess the question was aiming at anyway.

 

[RPI]

The penalty fare has been issued prior to you travelling, therefore I'd say it's not valid, unless, as others have said, Birmingham New Street has become a Compulsory Ticket Area!

 

[AlterEgo]

If the split is at Birmingham they haven’t started their journey as they were outside the gateline. If it’s anywhere else then they have done. But if it’s after Birmingham then the fare should only have been to the split point.

That’s what I guess the question was aiming at anyway.

The ticket or combination of tickets isn't relevant; the OP's journey (as per NRCoT) started at Taunton.

The Penalty Fares Regulations are concerned with boarding, leaving, or travelling on trains, which is an important distinction. As @RPI says here it's "prior" to "travelling on" the train the PF pertains to - they cannot be issued preemptively like this, regardless of whether the OP has a split ticket or a through Advance or whatever.

 

[lalandv]

these were my tickets (in reverse)

 

[dciuk]

I am not sure if it makes a difference, but the split was not at Birmingham. I presume the journey from Taunton (or Cheltenham where the ticket was from that covers the Birmingham portion) would have been on Cross Country Trains and I thought they were not part of the penalty fares scheme, but again I am usure that makes any difference so will leave it for the penalty fare experts to comment further.

 

[RPI]

I am not sure if it makes a difference, but the split was not at Birmingham. I presume the journey from Taunton (or Cheltenham where the ticket was from that covers the Birmingham portion) would have been on Cross Country Trains and I thought they were not part of the penalty fares scheme, but again I am usure that makes any difference so will leave it for the penalty fare experts to comment further.

Yes, Crosscountry are not in any penalty fare scheme so the PF couldn't have been issued for travel already made whilst on Crosscountry.

The correct action would have been either an unpaid fare notice, a report for prosecution, an excess fare or a new ticket, basically, the inspector has chosen the only course of action that they shouldn't have done.

 

[WesternLancer]

Yes, Crosscountry are not in any penalty fare scheme so the PF couldn't have been issued for travel already made whilst on Crosscountry.

The correct action would have been either an unpaid fare notice, a report for prosecution, an excess fare or a new ticket, basically, the inspector has chosen the only course of action that they shouldn't have done.

But would it be a course of action that may have been lowest cost outcome for the op? Especially if it allows the op to appeal successfully as well…

 

[RPI]

But would it be a course of action that may have been lowest cost outcome for the op? Especially if it allows the op to appeal successfully as well…

I'd say an excess would be that!

 

[WesternLancer]

I'd say an excess would be that!

Thanks

 

[lalandv]

just an update my appeal was declined, i was going to re-appeal and mention that Birmingham is not a compulsory ticket area. Are there certain things I would need to specifically mention?

 

[dciuk]

What grounds did you mention in your previous appear and what was the reason given for it being rejected?