Wrong Railcard code on a ticket.

[D2022]

About two weeks ago I got into a little situation with a and wanted an answer. I went from Swindon to Trowbridge for work on an anytime day return costing £12.00 with my railcard. On the way out it was ok, but On the way back I got ticket checked and informed I had the wrong ticket/railcard combo. Turns out I had, in my hurry, pressed the HM forces card button on the TVM instead of the Young Persons one. The guard informed me that I'd broken some terms and conditions and was liable for a penalty fare. I talked him out of it by explaining my hurry in the morning and just sheer stupidness on my part. He found it a little funny but told me to be more careful in future.

Is it true that I'd be liable for a PF? The price on either card would be the same.

 

[Harlesden]

I believe the price is irrelevant. As far as a RPO is concerned, a passenger holding a HM Forces ticket is attempting to pass himself off as a member of HM Forces and eligible for the HM Forces concession. It is clearly stated that a passenger holding a concessionary ticket for the purpose of making a journey should have the correct applicable concessionary photocard available for inspection at all times during the journey.
You are liable for a PF but I believe most RPO's, seeing your valid YP Photocard would overlook your error although certainly not obliged to do so.

 

[bb21]

I think technically he is correct as you cannot demonstrate proof of your discount entitlement.

That said, if the correct fare had been paid, it would be rather petty for him to write you up.

 

[D2022]

I believe the price is irrelevant. As far as a RPO is concerned, a passenger holding a HM Forces ticket is attempting to pass himself off as a member of HM Forces and eligible for the HM Forces concession. It is clearly stated that a passenger holding a concessionary ticket for the purpose of making a journey should have the correct applicable concessionary photocard available for inspection at all times during the journey.
You are liable for a PF but I believe most RPO's, seeing your valid YP Photocard would overlook your error although certainly not obliged to do so.

Thanks for clearing that up. Much appreciated. I understand the problem of it being the wrong railcard and such, some unscrupulous people would easily try pass themselves off but then I would like to think everyone using the railcard discounts would have their photocard and be ready to present it lol
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I think technically he is correct as you cannot demonstrate proof of your discount entitlement.

That said, if the correct fare had been paid, it would be rather petty for him to write you up.

But the entitlement is a 3rd off for HM forces and young persons card holders. So I have got entitlement to the ssame discount either way.

 

[northwichcat]

It's not unknown for someone in the ticket office to press the wrong button and to give a Senior's discount to someone with a 16-25 railcard or the other way around.

I'm not actually sure why the tickets need different codes. (Adding a surname or railcard number to the discounted tickets would be a more effective way of reducing fraud.) I'm guessing it's to monitor the number of sales for each type of railcard.

 

[Yew]

It's not unknown for someone in the ticket office to press the wrong button and to give a Senior's discount to someone with a 16-25 railcard or the other way around.

I'm not actually sure why the tickets need different codes. (Adding a surname or railcard number to the discounted tickets would be a more effective way of reducing fraud.) I'm guessing it's to monitor the number of sales for each type of railcard.

Senior railcards allow discount of first anytime (and first ALR) fares, where a 16-25 only allows discount on advances.

 

[bb21]

But the entitlement is a 3rd off for HM forces and young persons card holders. So I have got entitlement to the ssame discount either way.

See my comment regarding the amount paid.

Technically you cannot demonstrate your entitlement to the HM Forces Railcard discount (wrong type, regardless of amount), but I would consider it barmy if you are pulled up on it.

 

[Goatboy]

Technically the member of train staff is entirely correct.

It's a tad irritating as it stops those of us with railcards most of the websites pretend don't exist buying online as wecan't simply select another railcard for which the discount entitlement is the same, but such is life.

 

[Dewedin]

Is there a minimum fare requirement for the HM Forces discount, as there is for the 16-25?

 

[clagmonster]

Is there a minimum fare requirement for the HM Forces discount, as there is for the 16-25?

It would appear so, of the same £12.00 and exactly the same timeframes. See: http://www.hmforces-railcard.co.uk/what-is-the-hm-forces-railcard/minimum-fares

 

[wintonian]

Technically the member of train staff is entirely correct.

It's a tad irritating as it stops those of us with railcards most of the websites pretend don't exist buying online as wecan't simply select another railcard for which the discount entitlement is the same, but such is life.

Hmm I thnk you can sometimes excess from a railcard discounted fare to a non discounted on, but can you excess from one railcard to another, for example if you selected the wrong discount at a TVM or online?

That's my fleeting thought anyway.

 

[island]

It would appear so, of the same £12.00 and exactly the same timeframes. See: http://www.hmforces-railcard.co.uk/what-is-the-hm-forces-railcard/minimum-fares

Yes. I think the only difference in validity between the two is that HMF Railcards can be used for walk-up first class fares with all TOCs.

 

[CC 72100]

Senior railcards allow discount of first anytime (and first ALR) fares, where a 16-25 only allows discount on advances.

According to the NRE website, no railcard discounts across the board. Although I thought that this wasn't the case, could be because the NRE website is a complete mess at the moment. How is this useful in any way? - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr569241c35ce74100fb0de1b9798124.aspx

 

[alex17595]

According to the NRE website, no railcard discounts across the board. Although I thought that this wasn't the case, could be because the NRE website is a complete mess at the moment. How is this useful in any way? - http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr569241c35ce74100fb0de1b9798124.aspx

at least you get a validity map

 

[alastair]

This is an interesting thread,however I would just point out that in 10 plus years of regularly travelling with a Network Card,mainly on SWT but also on FGW and Southern,when my ticket has been checked on the train,or at a barrier, I have NEVER been asked to show my railcard.

Given that this seems to be the norm(around here anyway),the code is therefore pretty irrelevant!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hmm I thnk you can sometimes excess from a railcard discounted fare to a non discounted on, but can you excess from one railcard to another, for example if you selected the wrong discount at a TVM or online?

That's my fleeting thought anyway.

Not worked at a station with a TVM since before the current generation of them came about, but when I did, you could visit the ticket office at that station and exchange it, this would be more difficult at another station as there is no official process for it and no proof it has not been used with the correct railcard beforehand (some people aren't very honest).

Incidentally, there is no official process for excessing a discounted ticket into a non-discounted ticket, some clerks will do an excess, others will only do a refund (with admin fee) and issue a new ticket.

 

[furlong]

This is an interesting thread,however I would just point out that in 10 plus years of regularly travelling with a Network Card,mainly on SWT but also on FGW and Southern,when my ticket has been checked on the train,or at a barrier, I have NEVER been asked to show my railcard.

Given that this seems to be the norm(around here anyway),the code is therefore pretty irrelevant!

Perhaps checks are rarer because when they are made, problems are rarely encountered.

Contrast that with Young Person's Railcard, which does seem to get checked far far more frequently - and probably for good reason.

Anyone can buy the Network Railcard - no photocard is needed - and if you travel enough to know what the discount is and how cheap the card is, why would you take the risk of buying the discounted tickets without the card?

 

[island]

The full-priced Network Railcard is rather expensive for the discount it provides IMO, given all the restrictions.

 

[IanD]

The full-priced Network Railcard is rather expensive for the discount it provides IMO, given all the restrictions.

Agreed - I wouldn't get one if it wasn't for the £1 offer.

 

[RPI]

It's not unknown for someone in the ticket office to press the wrong button and to give a Senior's discount to someone with a 16-25 railcard or the other way around.

I'm not actually sure why the tickets need different codes. (Adding a surname or railcard number to the discounted tickets would be a more effective way of reducing fraud.) I'm guessing it's to monitor the number of sales for each type of railcard.

Don't be fooled, i see a lot of people with Y-P cards who "accidently" select SNR on their tickets in the morning in order to avoid paying the £12.00 min fare before 10:00, however, in the OP's case there is obviously nothing to gain as the HMF railcard also carries a £12.00 min fare before 10:00.

 

[A1]

The full-priced Network Railcard is rather expensive for the discount it provides IMO, given all the restrictions.

strange. I would have made my full cost back numerous times. if I had a regular route where I could season ticket, or had to leave early each day or didn't travel on the railway (or tube) on a sat or sun (travelcard discount) then I wouldn't have saved anywhere near as much....

 

[IanD]

strange. I would have made my full cost back numerous times. if I had a regular route where I could season ticket, or had to leave early each day or didn't travel on the railway (or tube) on a sat or sun (travelcard discount) then I wouldn't have saved anywhere near as much....

For the same price as a network card (or less), all the national railcards give discount over the whole country and not just the bottom right hand corner. Also, they don't have a blanket minimum charge during the week and are not restricted to travel after 10am.

Plus the newtork card does not give discounts on Advance tickets.

Other regional railcards are generally cheaper than the network card.

 

[northwichcat]

Don't be fooled, i see a lot of people with Y-P cards who "accidently" select SNR on their tickets in the morning in order to avoid paying the £12.00 min fare before 10:00, however, in the OP's case there is obviously nothing to gain as the HMF railcard also carries a £12.00 min fare before 10:00.

I'm not being fooled. When I held a Young Persons railcard I encountered a few occasions where a ticket office employee pressed the wrong railcard button for a return journey where the minimum fare didn't apply (and on a couple of occasions they didn't press the button at all and insisted the undiscounted fare was the railcard discounted fare.) On occasions when I used a self-service ticket machine I never managed to press the wrong button but there were a lot less self-service machines around then so it was rarely an option I had when purchasing tickets.

 

[alastair]

For the same price as a network card (or less), all the national railcards give discount over the whole country and not just the bottom right hand corner. Also, they don't have a blanket minimum charge during the week and are not restricted to travel after 10am.

Plus the newtork card does not give discounts on Advance tickets.

Other regional railcards are generally cheaper than the network card.

However the Network railcard has the priceless advantage that it is (a) available to us unfortunates between the ages of 27/59 and (b) it also gives the discount for up to 3 people travelling with you. The £13 minimum fare Mon/Fri is of course a big disincentive if you are doing a very short journey.

 

[Be3G]

However the Network railcard has the priceless advantage that it […] gives the discount for up to 3 people travelling with you.

That's not even as useful as it once was thanks to GroupSave, which is cheaper if four people are travelling. So aside from travelling to/from the Isle of Wight, or traveling on certain busy days/trains (where in each case GroupSave isn't valid), the Network Railcard is only really of use for up to two passengers.

 

[maniacmartin]

GroupSave has it's downsides though. With the Network Railcard you can have a friend start short and join you at an intermediate station, but with a GroupSave ticket you have to travel as a group always

 

[hairyhandedfool]

For the same price as a network card (or less), all the national railcards give discount over the whole country and not just the bottom right hand corner. Also, they don't have a blanket minimum charge during the week and are not restricted to travel after 10am....

Aside from the age thing and not having to drag someone else's child around with you, the Senior Railcard has time restrictions for journeys within the NSE area and the 16-25 Railcard (which was national last I checked) has a minimum fare on weekday mornings.

That's not even as useful as it once was thanks to GroupSave, which is cheaper if four people are travelling. So aside from travelling to/from the Isle of Wight, or traveling on certain busy days/trains (where in each case GroupSave isn't valid), the Network Railcard is only really of use for up to two passengers.

Groupsave does have TOC restrictions.

 

[island]

The only major journeys on which NSE is valid but GroupSave isn't are those such as London to Milton Keynes, Stevenage, or Bedford, plus some miscellaneous XC runs.

 

[route:oxford]

The best discount of all is when a Network Railcard is used in a station outside the former Network South East area to purchase a ticket within the correct zone...

And the station staff sell a ticket with a Network Rail card discount...

 

[IanD]

...the 16-25 Railcard (which was national last I checked) has a minimum fare on weekday mornings.

But it's not blanket minimum charge, it only applies before 10am which I read somewhere was brought in to try and stop people commuting using it. A similar excuse is given for the minimum fare on the network card but that lasts all day and is £1 more.

I save a grand total of £1 on a weekday trip to London due to the minimum fare which is the main reason I'm glad I only pay £1 for it.

I don't think anywone is asying it's a waste of time getting one but quite clearly when compared to the other cards it's pretty minging.