Wrong Railcard - Appealing

[boq]

Hi all.

I was on a morning return greater anglia train from Cambridge to London Liverpool street - advance single ticket, purchased with 16-17 railcard mistakenly, instead of 16-25.

The ticket inspector approaches and asks to see the ticket. After some faff due to connection issues (wifi, janky app, weak data, etc.) I present my ticket - a barcode on the trainpal app. After scanning, was asked to see my railcard, for 16-25 y/o. however - was then told my ticket was for a 16-17 railcard.

I had made a mistake at the time of purchase.

I showed proof that I could not afford to pay part of the penalty (around £28) on the spot, so was just given a Penalty Fare notice.

The notice number doesn't work on the appeals site, I am currently emailing their helpdesk email about that.

What are my chances like for appealing? Do I have a leg to stand on? What is the strongest argument I can produce to avoid paying?

Thank you guys.

 

[AndroidBango]

A penalty fare seems to be the appropriate response to a mistake like this. I don't see any avenue to a successful appeal.

 

[AlterEgo]

hi all. was on a morning return greater anglia train from cambridge to london liverpool street - advance single ticket, purchased with 16-17 railcard mistakenly, instead of 16-25. ticket inspector approaches and askes to see ticket. after some faff due to connection issues (wifi, janky app, weak data, etc.) i present my ticket - a barcode on the trainpal app. After scanning, was asked to see my railcard, for 16-25 y/o. however - was then told my ticket was for a 16-17 railcard.

i had made a mistake at time of purchase.

literally showed proof that i could not afford to pay part of the penalty (around £28) on the spot, so was just given a penalty fair notice. notice number doesnt bloody work on the appeals site, currently emailing their helpdesk email about that. what are my chances like for appealing? do i have a leg to stand on? what is the strongest argument i can produce to avoid paying? thank you guys.

Please upload any and all paperwork you were given with your details removed so we can see what's happened here.

 

[John R]

Unless there is a mistake with the paperwork you were given then there isn’t an argument not to pay. You were given a PF because you made a mistake and did not have a valid ticket. That’s what PFs are meant for.

Actually, you were lucky you were not referred for prosecution to enable the back room staff to investigate your account to see whether there are any other similar mistakes in recent purchases, which might suggest a pattern of more deliberate fare evasion (using the 16-17 Railcard for that purpose is quite common given the cases we see here.)

 

[dosxuk]

purchased with 16-17 railcard mistakenly, instead of 16-25

The reason they have made a thing of this is that the 16-17 railcard gives a 50% discount and the 16-25 a 33% discount. This isn't just a paperwork mistake, you would have financially benefitted from the mistake if it wasn't detected.

If the inspector believed this was a genuine mistake, then a penalty fare can be the correct method of handling this. Otherwise it would be down the report, potential prosecution and demand for all avoided fares route - something that is regularly. As you have been lucky enough to get the penalty fare route, I would recommend paying it as soon as possible and making sure you always travel with the correct ticket. Your details will be logged and if you get stopped again for a similar issue you should not expect to get off with just a penalty fare.

 

[boq]

thanks for your responses guys, i appreciate the insight - should i not try and appeal at least? will calling it a genuine mistake when writing the appeal hold up or not? i also get the impression a very disappointingly tiny minority of appeals are actually successful; is this the case?

 

[Cuthbert]

thanks for your responses guys, i appreciate the insight - should i not try and appeal at least? will calling it a genuine mistake when writing the appeal hold up or not? i also get the impression a very disappointingly tiny minority of appeals are actually successful; is this the case?

Not for those reasons but @AlterEgo ask that you upload any paper work as they may have made an error in issuing the Penalty Fare.

That's why the Forum guidelines ask for this. Makes it easier for the pro's on here to help you.
Just hide all personal information and the PF ref number.

 

[dosxuk]

will calling it a genuine mistake when writing the appeal hold up or not?

Penalty fares are for when people make genuine mistakes.

Prosecution is for when people make deliberate decisions to hold the wrong/no ticket.

 

[robbeech]

Penalty fares are for when people make genuine mistakes.

Prosecution is for when people make deliberate decisions to hold the wrong/no ticket.

In theory yes, in practise the railway operates however it sees fit on the day, and how it has acted in this situation is imo probably correct, despite that being unfortunate for the passenger.

Whilst I don’t think on the face of it there are any grounds for appeal here that the railway will accept, the way the railway as a whole operates in 2025 means I’d be inclined to be as petty as possible and appeal on whatever grounds can be found. I’m sure there are lots of people here happy to assist with this if you supply the relevant (redacted) documentation.

Of course it’s a balance between time, wellbeing and desire to be as difficult as the railway are with passengers so there must be a point in which one calls it a day.
As there is unlikely to be any ground for appeal they’ll accept you’d be well advised to pay the reduced £50 plus the fare due as per the instructions on the notice now to avoid further charges, safe in the knowledge that you’ll be refunded the penalty element of this charge (not the fare due) should an appeal be successful.

 

[JordR]

An appeal on those grounds would be very unlikely to succeed but the potential benefits would be (1) longer to raise the money if you need it, including suspending the period before the prompt payment discount no longer applies; and (2) I believe you have to appeal once to bar Greater Anglia from prosecuting you for ticketing criminal offences (although it's unlikely they would do so anyway).

 

[Hadders]

Unfortunately, however unintentional it was, you didn't have a valid ticket for the journey you made and consequently a Penalty Fare is an appropriate remedy for this. There's nothing stopping you from appealing but I wouldn't normally expect an appeal to be successful. You have 21 days to pay at the reduced and I would make sure you take advantage of this - note that the clock is stopped on the 21 days while an appeal is determined.

There might be some very technical reasons why the Penalty Fare is invalid which is why we need to see a copy of what you were given. I'll leave other forum members to advise if this is the case.

 

[boq]

hello - i have included a summary of my return tickets, my booking summary, and a display of the 16-17 and 16-25 railcard selection on trainpal.

i have also included my redacted penalty fare ticket. hope thats more useful info!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Feb 2025 ==

also, do you all think it is a better idea to pay the reduced penalty fare prior to the 21 day limit whilst also appealing?

 

[AlterEgo]

Where and when exactly during the journey were you asked for your ticket by the inspector?

 

[boq]

i dont remember unfortunately. around 50 min away from. liverpool street, time-wise.

 

[furlong]

So did you explicitly ask for the Penalty Fare to be issued to Liverpool Street, rather than accepting the default position where it is issued to just the next stop (with you then buying a separate ticket from the next stop to Liverpool Street)?

The regulations state that it must be issued to the next stop unless you ask otherwise and the inspector chooses to agree to your request.

 

[John R]

We don't know where the PF was issued, as it is omitted. I don't know whether that omission is enough to argue that the ticket was not completely correctly?

 

[boq]

the next station was tottenham hale, and i was not given the option to pay the fare at the next station, it was not mentioned at all. i proved i did not have enough in my account to pay via card, so could not pay then and there, and was just given a ticket.

 

[furlong]

But did you have enough in your account to buy another (correct) ticket from Cambridge to Tottenham Hale (i.e. without the penalty on top)?
The fare is the same to Liverpool Street, so this becomes a rather technical argument.

 

[boq]

im not sure, as i was not given the option to buy another ticket either. it was straight to the fare, so i am unsure how much the tickets would have costed then and there.