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Wrexham & Shropshire

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Urm, as a partial rail fan, I've just came across this company, Wrexham & Shropshire, due to start this season.

I thought a decent discussion might become of this subject...

I beleive their gonna use EWS 67's?

Hakxi.
 
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me123

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They're using EWS 67s and Mk. IIIs. The 67s are painted in their livery and in a dedicated pool of units, so they should remain on the service all the time. There's 3 coaches and a DVT on each unit, as well as the loco.

For more info, click.

Of course, Rachard Branson, always up for a fight, has obtained rights for 1tpd Wrexham-Euston and return with possibilities to expand IIRC (as part of Virgin's High-Frequency TT) so suddinly the little town has 2 direct services to London!
 

The Planner

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They will be top and 67s to start with as they havent got clearence for the DVTs to enter Marylebone yet.
 
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Haha. Wrexham is only a small place, yeah?

If so, I think it's tight, allowing the BIG GUY BRANSON to overake a fresh breathe to the market.

Hakzi.
 

Respite

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Yes Virgin & WSR will both be messing up regulating for us (ATW) on the line. I'm already incurring up to 10 minute delays with the WSR road learner being in the way & having to wait for it to clear section at Cross Newyd! Branson no doulbt will just ruin more stuff for everyone & then leave them all in the lurch again ala Shrewbury to Euston service.
 

Nym

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Well, it's nice to see railway businesses having to compete for once, considering most companies have an oligoply of on-track competition it's nice to see 2 sets of pepole fighting again! Such as WSMR & VT, GC/HT and NXEC, and in the days gone by, MML, TPE and VT.

The only competitions I know of atm, are Northern/TPE and TPE/EMT
 

TDK

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Yes Virgin & WSR will both be messing up regulating for us (ATW) on the line. I'm already incurring up to 10 minute delays with the WSR road learner being in the way & having to wait for it to clear section at Cross Newyd! Branson no doulbt will just ruin more stuff for everyone & then leave them all in the lurch again ala Shrewbury to Euston service.

May be the other way round? ATW messing regulation for WSMR? The 16.30 Salop to Holyhead never leaves on time or rarely does as it waits for the Aber connection, the WSMR service is directly behind this that adds to the journey time waiting for this service to clear Wrexham.
 
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That's pathetic of Branson, starting a new service just because another company saw business before him.

Whatever happened to fair play? Oh wait, it's business
 

1D53

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Either rightly or wrongly there is no such thing as fair in business, especially when there is money to be made!
 

thefab444

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That's pathetic of Branson, starting a new service just because another company saw business before him.

Whatever happened to fair play? Oh wait, it's business


His objective is to make money, one way of doing that is to get customers off W&S but offering them a faster service. Isn't it like 3 hours vs 5 hours? 10 coaches instead of 3?

Besides the main market for WSMR is Shrewsbury anyway.
 

The Planner

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Its quicker to travel on WSMR at the weekends. The average Marlyebone - Wrexham or vice versa is 4 hours 15 minutes SX.
 

Philip

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Well, it's nice to see railway businesses having to compete for once, considering most companies have an oligoply of on-track competition it's nice to see 2 sets of pepole fighting again! Such as WSMR & VT, GC/HT and NXEC, and in the days gone by, MML, TPE and VT.

The only competitions I know of atm, are Northern/TPE and TPE/EMT


Northern and TPE seem to work together. Plenty of posters around Manchester telling of the two companies working together.

I have doubts on the WSMR - journey times are long! It'd be quicker getting a Wolverhampton service and changing onto a Euston train.

Do they need to stop at Wellington as well as Telford? Also why are they proposing stops at Chirk and Cosford?
 

yorkie

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The Planner, are you a train planner for Chiltern by any chance? If so does your first name begin with 'M'?

As for Chirk and Cosford, they must have evidence that those places would be good for their business case or they wouldn't be calling there. I think beyond Shrewsbury it doesn't matter if they make a few extra stops -as they're never going to compete for Welsh passengers on a time basis, instead they are competing on convenience.
 

87015

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As for Chirk and Cosford, they must have evidence that those places would be good for their business case or they wouldn't be calling there. I think beyond Shrewsbury it doesn't matter if they make a few extra stops -as they're never going to compete for Welsh passengers on a time basis, instead they are competing on convenience.
Probably might as well stop as otherwise only have to wait at signals for the unit in front to clear the section - both lines AFAIK have pretty long signal sections. Easily have a couple of days getting some of the shacks in for loco hauled, and a cracking way back from future Llangollen galas with the evening one off Wrexham.

Looking forward to these starting - loco hauled service trains can't be a bad thing.
 

Ben

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Ive got a feeling Cosford stop is considering the RAF base seems as its literally next door.
 

TDK

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His objective is to make money, one way of doing that is to get customers off W&S but offering them a faster service. Isn't it like 3 hours vs 5 hours? 10 coaches instead of 3?

Besides the main market for WSMR is Shrewsbury anyway.

I think VWC will be attempting the Wrexham to London with a 5 car super voyager. It is just a proposal currently and they may come to a brick wall if they do not get the path over the single line between Wrexham and Saltney Jct. ATW I think may have to give up one of their paths for VWC to be able to depart around 07.00. The journey time currently for WSMR varies from 3h 50m to 4h 25m approx, this is short of the 5 hours you have quoted.
 

Philip

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I think VWC will be attempting the Wrexham to London with a 5 car super voyager. It is just a proposal currently and they may come to a brick wall if they do not get the path over the single line between Wrexham and Saltney Jct. ATW I think may have to give up one of their paths for VWC to be able to depart around 07.00. The journey time currently for WSMR varies from 3h 50m to 4h 25m approx, this is short of the 5 hours you have quoted.

That's still a long trip considering Manchester-London fast is nearly half that time!

It should make for a very pleasant ride to do as a day trip, but if you want the quicket route to London from Wrexham, better changing at Chester on to one of the hourly London trains to start operations from December.
 

The Planner

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The Planner, are you a train planner for Chiltern by any chance? If so does your first name begin with 'M'?

As for Chirk and Cosford, they must have evidence that those places would be good for their business case or they wouldn't be calling there. I think beyond Shrewsbury it doesn't matter if they make a few extra stops -as they're never going to compete for Welsh passengers on a time basis, instead they are competing on convenience.

Nope, NR me.
 
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I've been waiting for this service to begin for years! We're so nearly there! :D

Loco hauled passenger trains finally return to Shrewsbury!
 

djw1981

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Is the loco hauled or the London connection more important, or just an increase in the number of daily services to West Midlands?
 
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It's having the direct train to London from Shropshire that's important - also allows for Oxford, Reading, etc with one change at Banbury.

And for myself personally, having loco hauled passenger trains back in Shrewsbury (which is in the middle of boring, endless DMU territory) will be a great sight.

I'll definitely be booking a trip with WSMR some time this summer/autumn.
 

djw1981

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Boring DMU, surely you get 158 & 175's... thats some variety to aleviate the boredom....
 

Respite

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Boring DMU, surely you get 158 & 175's... thats some variety to aleviate the boredom....

Hey & 150, 153 & 170's!!

;)

Plus the amount of steam we have had lately, plus regular class 60's, 57's 66's. Infact we probably get more loco hauled than new street! :shock:

P.S. Proud salopian, have you been on salop station the last few weeks. I keep waving to a few neds that look familiar from pic's on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
May be the other way round? ATW messing regulation for WSMR? The 16.30 Salop to Holyhead never leaves on time or rarely does as it waits for the Aber connection, the WSMR service is directly behind this that adds to the journey time waiting for this service to clear Wrexham.
The 16:30 Holyhead does actually leave right time a fair bit, although as you say waiting for a connection from a brum train is always a nightmare as New st PSB, Wolves PSB & Oxley boxes seem to devise new ways to delay anything not owned by Dick. At least most of the signalman now apologise for being vermin blinded now, especially when You point out that 1 is before 5 regardless of livery/ owner!

As for My point re the delay on the Salop to Chester line, my point is regardless of whom delays whom is that network rail seem happy to take there money for line usage without actually bothering to work out things like timings. After Cross Newyd box's(AB section) section signal is a bloody long section to Gobowen plus the regularly used groundframe at Chirk. Then between Gobowen box(AB section) & Crewe Jcn box (Salop,AB again) with one IB signal each way is also a long long section. It's 20 minutes (booked) between the last two points (16 minutes,4 seconds in 1967 with a black five though! But then it was still a mainline then rather than a very rough branchline). All the other boxes along the line were removed by the early 90's in cost cutting & now it's just a sh*t line to drive on at the moment with timing's. Plus 150's,158's & 175's are just way faster than skips isn't going to help matters at all.I know a 67 has a higher top speed than a 150,158 but between Shrewsbury & Wrexham the speeds are 15mph(salop),70mph(clear of Crewe Jcn), 60mph(approach to Cefn Viaduct to just before Ruabon, 50mph before Ruabon to otherside of the station & then back to 70mph up to Wrexham. So top end never comes into play plus on other sections they are running at lower speeds due to loco hauled (& NR's fear of loco's) whilst MU's travel at higher posted linespeeds. Talking to one WSR road learner with me the other day he was sying further south there's a section of around 20 miles where MU's are 100mph & loco's are 60mph! Thats going to hammer someones else's trains as well. I'm all for other company's running trains & certainly up for loco haulage but if you see things without Network Rails rose tinted glasses you will see all they care about is getting more money & sod anyone who runs trains already.I worked for NR from when it started till 2005 & I have never seen such a shoddy setup as it(apart from Railtrack, but they were just a complete joke "Quality paths for Profit" was there catchphrase, yeah right!
 

TDK

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Hey & 150, 153 & 170's!!

;)

Plus the amount of steam we have had lately, plus regular class 60's, 57's 66's. Infact we probably get more loco hauled than new street! :shock:

P.S. Proud salopian, have you been on salop station the last few weeks. I keep waving to a few neds that look familiar from pic's on here.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The 16:30 Holyhead does actually leave right time a fair bit, although as you say waiting for a connection from a brum train is always a nightmare as New st PSB, Wolves PSB & Oxley boxes seem to devise new ways to delay anything not owned by Dick. At least most of the signalman now apologise for being vermin blinded now, especially when You point out that 1 is before 5 regardless of livery/ owner!

As for My point re the delay on the Salop to Chester line, my point is regardless of whom delays whom is that network rail seem happy to take there money for line usage without actually bothering to work out things like timings. After Cross Newyd box's(AB section) section signal is a bloody long section to Gobowen plus the regularly used groundframe at Chirk. Then between Gobowen box(AB section) & Crewe Jcn box (Salop,AB again) with one IB signal each way is also a long long section. It's 20 minutes (booked) between the last two points (16 minutes,4 seconds in 1967 with a black five though! But then it was still a mainline then rather than a very rough branchline). All the other boxes along the line were removed by the early 90's in cost cutting & now it's just a sh*t line to drive on at the moment with timing's. Plus 150's,158's & 175's are just way faster than skips isn't going to help matters at all.I know a 67 has a higher top speed than a 150,158 but between Shrewsbury & Wrexham the speeds are 15mph(salop),70mph(clear of Crewe Jcn), 60mph(approach to Cefn Viaduct to just before Ruabon, 50mph before Ruabon to otherside of the station & then back to 70mph up to Wrexham. So top end never comes into play plus on other sections they are running at lower speeds due to loco hauled (& NR's fear of loco's) whilst MU's travel at higher posted linespeeds. Talking to one WSR road learner with me the other day he was sying further south there's a section of around 20 miles where MU's are 100mph & loco's are 60mph! Thats going to hammer someones else's trains as well. I'm all for other company's running trains & certainly up for loco haulage but if you see things without Network Rails rose tinted glasses you will see all they care about is getting more money & sod anyone who runs trains already.I worked for NR from when it started till 2005 & I have never seen such a shoddy setup as it(apart from Railtrack, but they were just a complete joke "Quality paths for Profit" was there catchphrase, yeah right!

Very good commes, the loco and stock from Salop to Wrexham only have a max speed of 60mph as the 70mph is an MU speed only, the section between Bicester North & Princes Risborough is only 60 for loco hauled and from Princes Risborough to Northolt Jct (South Ruislip) is 70mph loco hauled vice 75mph for MU. Hopefully NR will realise that the class 67 has a much better brake force than any other loco and can stop a lot better than a 175/168 etc so may up the speeds taking into account axle weight etc. A 67 on acelleration in notch 8 with 3+DVT will leave any diesel unit standing so will get away quite quickly but the lower speeds are a pain. Hopefully WSMR will get the go ahead for the higher speeds and this will be better for all, staff, passengers and other TOC's. Interesting you mentioned the black 5, I think I read the speed record was set with a black 5 at 98mph odd on the line between Gobowen and Salop, I think the speed restrictions were maybe a little less enforced years ago :) I think the signallers are scared sh*tless when it comes to Dick Vermine, as you say 2 yellows out of Wolves, a 5 minute delay coz a class 5 wants to emerge from Oxley.

The whole NR, VWC thing is a joke, it's all money and not a thought goes into the view of the passenger.
 

Nym

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Well considering a 67 with ?12 coaches and another shut down 67 at erm, Manchester Vic, beat most of the pacers and early sprinters out of the station IMO up the gradient towards Salf Ctrl. I don't think the're too badder loco... *waits for barrage of things being thrown*
 

TDK

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Northern and TPE seem to work together. Plenty of posters around Manchester telling of the two companies working together.

I have doubts on the WSMR - journey times are long! It'd be quicker getting a Wolverhampton service and changing onto a Euston train.

Do they need to stop at Wellington as well as Telford? Also why are they proposing stops at Chirk and Cosford?

Chirk is in Wales, enuf said, Cosford have proposals to inherit a large infux of trainees over the next 18 months who will all need to travel from and to as they say so Cosford is a viable source of income. A new open access company does in my opinion need support of stakeholders, WAG is one, Shropshire council another (£700k to upgrade P3 @ salop), stopping at Chirk keeps the WAG happy & stopping at Cosford keeps the MOD happy. Shame there isn't the option to do a proper stop at Wolves, New Street, Birmingham International, Leamington Spa & Banbury. Unfortunately this interferes with Chiltern and VWC. Roll on 2011.
 

djw1981

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Surely there are not the paths through Brum and it would only end up delaying the service anyway.
 
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