Wrexham & Shropshire query

[merlodlliw]

I'll tell you where those spare trains are coming from. Last week I came across ATW asking network rails maintenance engineers would they object to them running SEVERAL class 67 locos along with a MK2/3 DVT sets to run at MU speed differentials along the marches route from next may. I seen it all in black and white!!

It was stated on this thread by IV153 I think, who works in the trade, that the 67s would not be ready for the December 2011 YEAR LONG TIMETABLE, due to training etc.
So we have to presume the OA (WAG2)175 will continue to be hired in from the Wales & Borders franchise for another 6 months or so at £100k or more a month WAG paying of course as they fund it with public money.
I am sure Carl Sargent the Minister will ask questions about this added cost with ATW already having £3.5millions to fund the 67 OA stock and run it supposedly from Dec 2011, now a non starter it seems.
As for WAG1 Gerald whos 57 stock is only hired in to Dec2011, it will be interesting to see if Carl Sargent will fund another £2 plus millions plus to run this OA train for another year,when all transport costings are being microscoped.
Only four months are left to sort out the 2011Dec/2012Dec year long timetable no May 2012 timetable next year.
It all looks a shambles.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So much for December then, knew they couldnt do it.... Im not convinced they will get it for May either, WSMR had a right game getting dispensation for the 67 speeds on the Chilterns.

I fully agree with you, the ATW experts in land of leather along with the WAG rail division will have to come up with some convincing answers for this new Minister, when the begging bowl is yet again brought out for more Open Access subsidy due to what can only be classed as total incompetence in sorting out the 67s.

Bob

 

[TDK]

No doubt DB would leave these coaches until last until fitting power doors. So it would be slightly more than 2yrs.

Also, how many coaches do Chiltern eventually need? Can they do without the WSMR coaches?
Without knowing how many coaches Chiltern will need, we dont know who will get the WSMR coaches.
Common sense will only get a chance to rear its head if Chiltern can survive without them.

There is no WSMR and the Mk3's and DVT's are now operated at PROFIT at Chiltern and I would suspect that the LHCS rakes will be a part of the EG3 plans, I cannot see DB (because there is also no ARRIVA anymore) taking these trains off Chiltern to assist in running the WAG MP's around, it is just not profitable.

ATW have been given a grant from the WAG to renovate mark 3's and DVT's to run this WAG service, they will not be able to keep timings with a 57 due to the run round at Chester if routing via Wrexham and this is why it was run via Crewe, the use of the 175 was down to this reason of running round, the 175 is currently timed for LHCS timings (I am sure planner will confirm this).

ATW announced that they will be running refurbed LHCS from December, these coaches and DVT's are currently being refurbed at the Welsh taxpayers costs. If ATW wanted the Mk 3's that WSMR refurbished before DB took over Chiltern and WSMR would they not have to reinburse the Chiltern/WSMR division their original costs for the refurb?

ATW and Chiltern are in fact 2 different sub companies of DB as is cross country, maybe DB will strip 4 voyagers off cross country for the WAG express? Of course this will not happen as with ATW taking the LHCS off of Chiltern.

The 67's ATW require need to have the compatibility with DVT's currently 67001/10/12/13/14/15 & 18 and maybe one other have this mod, there is also the training, will ATW lean on Chiltern to train their drivers & guards on DVT's and the mark 3's? If so will Chiltern be able to deliver the training, I doubt it very much.

To sum this up, WSMR started an open access company to run a quality service from Wales to London, so far no one has been able to match their customer service or thier ideas of running 67's & DVT, now, this was a very good stratgy by WSMR as buying coaches and DVT's far out weighed the costs if units were leased and as WSMR/Chiltern/DB regio at the time OWN the coaches and paid for the refurb & DVT's this is why ATW will struggle to get any off of Chiltern.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

WSMR had a right game getting dispensation for the 67 speeds on the Chilterns.

The speeds on the Chilters were and are HST diferentials, on the marches it's MU, ATW will have a much more difficult job in persueding NR that the 67's/57's will be fit to run at these speeds, the 57 does not have a good enought brakes with the amount of coaches used especially with the mk2's and the 67's have a high axle weight, I just cannot see NR agreeing it.

 

[merlodlliw]

Once again as a driver, you are the expert in these matters, Politicians and their
WAG rail division civil servants, assume any loco can travel on any line, which we know is not the case.

Its easy to play with public money, until the money tree stops producing the £, attention to detail as gone through the window, It is my opinion,after reading what the experts say,we will not see WAG2 as a 67DVT for another year,
plus the stumbling blocks of Network Rail wont be solved in a qtr year either

I keep saying it as an outsider , shambles.


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

I'll tell you where those spare trains are coming from. Last week I came across ATW asking network rails maintenance engineers would they object to them running SEVERAL class 67 locos along with a MK2/3 DVT sets to run at MU speed differentials along the marches route from next may. I seen it all in black and white!!

I wonder whether this will be a 3 x STD and 1 x FIRST as per Gerald?

Makes sense though.

 

[The Planner]

ATW have been given a grant from the WAG to renovate mark 3's and DVT's to run this WAG service, they will not be able to keep timings with a 57 due to the run round at Chester if routing via Wrexham and this is why it was run via Crewe, the use of the 175 was down to this reason of running round, the 175 is currently timed for LHCS timings (I am sure planner will confirm this).

Thats the whole issue, the 175 is timed as a 175, not LHCS, therefore if you stick a loco on it the path doesnt work.

The speeds on the Chilters were and are HST diferentials, on the marches it's MU, ATW will have a much more difficult job in persueding NR that the 67's/57's will be fit to run at these speeds, the 57 does not have a good enought brakes with the amount of coaches used especially with the mk2's and the 67's have a high axle weight, I just cannot see NR agreeing it.

They weren't HST diffs south of Aynho. It was an odd differential that was effectively a SP diff. Class 150 to 168 were allowed to run at the higher linespeed but nothing else. If you check out the baseline capability stuff on the NR site it still shows the old restrictions.

Therefore WSMR were limited to 60 initially between Bicester and Princes Risborough, they then went to the trouble of getting the structures looked at. It was raised to 75mph for a brief period to see how they coped then raised to the full linespeed. FGW eventually also got that section cleared for HSTs when the diversions take place.

North of Leamington to Tyseley it is HST diffs and the 67s are cleared now to run at those speeds from/to around Warwick Pwy, there is still one structure they weren't cleared for.

 

[TDK]

Thats the whole issue, the 175 is timed as a 175, not LHCS, therefore if you stick a loco on it the path doesnt work.

If that is the case planner they will have to rebid for the path once they confirm that they will be using LHCS, it would have been a lot more beneficial if they had gone for the LHCS path and run a 175 on it.

 

[merlodlliw]

If that is the case planner they will have to rebid for the path once they confirm that they will be using LHCS, it would have been a lot more beneficial if they had gone for the LHCS path and run a 175 on it.

I also agree, the 175 OA was rushed in to keep electoral promises and as it is using a up franchise path between the seven & Dee its just another stopper, just like Gerald on the down between Cardiff & Abergavenny.

Why not wait & do it properly, but that's Politicians for you.


Bob

 

[The Planner]

If that is the case planner they will have to rebid for the path once they confirm that they will be using LHCS, it would have been a lot more beneficial if they had gone for the LHCS path and run a 175 on it.

And then cue the egg on the face when it won't work....

 

[SWTDesiro]

It's great to see these fantastic units back in action! And it's great that Chiltern finally have more 'mainline' style trains on their long distance services because the 165s and 168s aren't very suitable.

 

[The Informer]

If you are ordering Pendolinos anyway, why keep a few Voyagers for a single London service via Wrexham? Order a few more, and you can keep the Holyhead service. There seems to be a surplus of VT 57s, since they spared 4 for ATW who won't be needing them from December if the 67s take over. Just attatch one to the Pendolino and drag, they can do it once a week why not every day. It is a 3hr 20min round trip, from Holyhead to Chester and back. You'd have to add dwell at Holyhead but one loco should therefore manage a service every 4 hours, so for a 2-hourly service 2 locos would surfice. It'd probablly result in a change to the spacing of the services and perhaps an overall reduction in London trains but it would release ALL VT's Voyagers and certainly allow more than a token one direct train per day.



Sounds daft to me. Fishguard is a much smaller port, yet the railway has survived solely on Irish traffic for many, many years. I can't see locals using the Fishguard service at the moment, it is hopeless for them, that's what the extra services coming in September will hopefully address. Despite this, when I did the route, the daytime train wasn't too badly loaded. Maybe the lack of rail-sail passengers at Holyhead is due to train times not connecting with ferries? Granted, Fishguard has been cut from an INTERCITY 125 to a Sprinter, but there are still a few rail-sail passengers unless locals have invented a time warp to allow the one daytime train to actually suit them.

Forget 'this type of route', the whole plane culture and car culture is unsustainable. Forget the EU, our own government need to come down hard on aviation, by introducing massive landing or take-off taxes, applicable to all non-military aircraft including frieght. If it doesn't kill of aviation, at least it would raise some much needed money to pay to de-carbonise or electricity supply with a large number of submerged tidal stream turbines supported by a smaller number of further hydro electric schemes, wind farms and nuclear power plants.

I could go into how humanity itself in its current state is unsustainable, but that isn't the topic of this fourm.

Mark 2s!! I thought the 67 + DVT sets on the WAG expresses where supposed to consist solely of mark 3 stock. Does this mean the existing stock for WAG1 will be used, with the 57 exhanged for a 67 and a DVT added?

Are the 57s already cleared to run at MU speeds, or is this why WAG2 on the supposedly slower route via Wrexham isn't really slower than WAG1? If the 57s are cleared, perhaps we could see them on WAG 2 from December until May? If not, I hope ATW pay back the money WAG paid for LHCS on WAG2 from December.

This mention of mark 3s and DVTs brings us back closer to the topic of the WSMR stock and my earlier, still unanswered, questions:



Sorry I'm having to ask this a third time, but having missed out on what was possibly the best train service in Britain I'm really keen not to miss out entirly on experiencing at least part of the experience.

I had the pleasure of a cab ride from Wrexham to Shrewsbury aboard WSR one june morning last year. Very nice it was too!

 

[oversteer]

It's great to see these fantastic units back in action! And it's great that Chiltern finally have more 'mainline' style trains on their long distance services because the 165s and 168s aren't very suitable.

I agree, and onboard wireless too from Sep.

People are still a bit confused by the slam door arrangement though. I've seen quite a few occasions when latecomers are pleading with the guard to let them on while he holds his green flag out the window. Or in one case, desperately trying the handle while the loco starts winding up, with the platform staffer yelling at them to stand clear!

Power doors are at least a bit more obvious.

 

[merlodlliw]

And then cue the egg on the face when it won't work....

Can I be a fly on the wall, when WAG Rail Division CS & ATW very senior management tell this to the Minister,

"Its the wrong type of train Sir, those nasty people at Network Rail say we should have thought of this first,can we have another £2millions subsidy please for hiring in the 175 from ourselves" "we thought class 175 and 67 were just trains that ran on lines "

Bob

 

[sprinterguy]

I really regret missing out on a ride on WSMR, I was planning to do it this summer but then they stopped running the service. It is a little more difficult to get a ride on the stock now as it no longer runs into Wales. If it looks like these sets will be removed from service for another refurbishment soon (including the power-door fitment) how long have I got before they reduce the number of Moor Street - Marylebone turns using the stock to allow a set to go in for refub?

I think the reason that you're question hasn't been answered is because nobody knows/can remember what the full details of the Chiltern loco hauled requirement will be post Evergreen 3.

DB Schenker have acquired a number of mark 3s to the tune of eight RFM vehicles, four HST TRSBs, fifteen DVTs, thirteen FOs (Primarily former DRS vehicles) and four TSOs that are not currently in use in the Banbury to Marylebone commuter rake, the Wrexham and Shropshire rakes and the DB company train.

This allows for four 5 carriage rakes (Formed RFM + 4xTSO) to be formed before DB would have to start the more complex process of converting buffet vehicles.

One former Wrexham and Shropshire rake is currently at Wabtec Doncaster, ostensibly for fitting with power doors that have been trialled on HST FO 41043. DVT 82304 is also at Doncaster for trial fitting with a diesel generator for pre-heating carriage rakes.

Chilterns' full compliment of loco hauled rakes is only required once Evergreen 3 goes live in 2013 and the process of converting vehicles to power door operation seems to be a slow one, so the current ex-W&S rakes have some life left in them yet in their current guise.

 

[TDK]

Chilterns' full compliment of loco hauled rakes is only required once Evergreen 3 goes live in 2013 and the process of converting vehicles to power door operation seems to be a slow one, so the current ex-W&S rakes have some life left in them yet in their current guise.

ASAIK EG3 will be live in September 2011 and most certainly by deccember 2011

 

[Cherry_Picker]

I think he was referring to Oxford - Marylebone going live rather than the increased linespeeds south of Banbury (which are indeed due this year) because it isnt until Chiltern need to commit x number of units to a half hourly Oxford service that it would be impossible to run the service with 165s, 168s and 172s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think the reason that you're question hasn't been answered is because nobody knows/can remember what the full details of the Chiltern loco hauled requirement will be post Evergreen 3.

DB Schenker have acquired a number of mark 3s to the tune of eight RFM vehicles, four HST TRSBs, fifteen DVTs, thirteen FOs (Primarily former DRS vehicles) and four TSOs that are not currently in use in the Banbury to Marylebone commuter rake, the Wrexham and Shropshire rakes and the DB company train.

This allows for four 5 carriage rakes (Formed RFM + 4xTSO) to be formed before DB would have to start the more complex process of converting buffet vehicles.

One former Wrexham and Shropshire rake is currently at Wabtec Doncaster, ostensibly for fitting with power doors that have been trialled on HST FO 41043. DVT 82304 is also at Doncaster for trial fitting with a diesel generator for pre-heating carriage rakes.

Chilterns' full compliment of loco hauled rakes is only required once Evergreen 3 goes live in 2013 and the process of converting vehicles to power door operation seems to be a slow one, so the current ex-W&S rakes have some life left in them yet in their current guise.

Thanks.

Can I be a fly on the wall, when WAG Rail Division CS & ATW very senior management tell this to the Minister,

"Its the wrong type of train Sir, those nasty people at Network Rail say we should have thought of this first,can we have another £2millions subsidy please for hiring in the 175 from ourselves" "we thought class 175 and 67 were just trains that ran on lines "

Bob

Ha,ha,ha

I really hope the minister doesn't stand for that sort of thing. This mess up with the LHCS got being ready on time should be used to claw money back from Arriva for the non-delivery of the LHCS aspect of the contract. £2m for ATW hiring a 175 from themselves is completely daft, a not-for-profit operator cannot come soon enough.

As for running the express via Wrexham, is the reason for this solely for transport in the Cardiff direction? If so, could it actually start at Wrexham instead (so as not to need to use the single line between there and Chester to avoid having to replace a franchised service and therefore avoid having to call at the intermediate stations) and route the Holyhead express via Crewe with whatever LHCS is available?

 

[merlodlliw]

Thanks.


Ha,ha,ha

I really hope the minister doesn't stand for that sort of thing. This mess up with the LHCS got being ready on time should be used to claw money back from Arriva for the non-delivery of the LHCS aspect of the contract. £2m for ATW hiring a 175 from themselves is completely daft, a not-for-profit operator cannot come soon enough.

As for running the express via Wrexham, is the reason for this solely for transport in the Cardiff direction? If so, could it actually start at Wrexham instead (so as not to need to use the single line between there and Chester to avoid having to replace a franchised service and therefore avoid having to call at the intermediate stations) and route the Holyhead express via Crewe with whatever LHCS is available?

As for the Wrexham angle, the so called ExpressWAG2 runs for the sole reason of transport to Cardiff, although it replaced a Birmingham well used service.

The intention of last years WAG was to run all Cardiff services from Holyhead via Wrexham and not route them via Crewe, ATW dont have any spare stock to run another Cardiff just from Wrexham plus WAG would have to pay for it and few would use it to Cardiff , the majority would get off at Shrewsbury as occurs now with WAG2.

ATW dont want loco hauled via Wrexham, as the majority from the West get off at Chester & Crewe.

The shortage of capacity is East to West in my opinion


Bob

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I be a fly on the wall, when WAG Rail Division CS & ATW very senior management tell this to the Minister,

"Its the wrong type of train Sir, those nasty people at Network Rail say we should have thought of this first,can we have another £2millions subsidy please for hiring in the 175 from ourselves" "we thought class 175 and 67 were just trains that ran on lines "

Bob

Well said, Bob!! There is much truth contained in hilarious situations as this that you describe so well.

 

[merlodlliw]

Well said, Bob!! There is much truth contained in hilarious situations as this that you describe so well.

It is rapidly becoming farce, as an outsider looking in, it beggars belief.

1.WAG2 mummers in ATW house magazine one year & more ago.

2.ATW staff connected with Gerald(WAG1) announcing WAG2 will run North/South

3.Sept/Oct 2010, ATW apply to ORR for new path via Crewe

4.Stations announced as,Holyhead,Bangor,Junction,Rhyl,Chester,Crewe, Shrewsbury,Newport,Cardiff.

5.Complaints from A.Ms & County Councils. As a result Colwyn Bay added.

6.December 2010, route via Crewe abandoned.

7.£3.5 millions awarded to ATW to refurbish carriages & hire in DVT & 67s ATW training on 67s cancelled, after W/S demise.

8. 175 dmu Route via Wrexham applied for,ATW to give up Mon/Fri franchise path on Dee/Seven line for open access working.

9.March 2011, announcement ATW to be paid over £600k to hire in 175 from Wales & Borders franchise(itself) to run open access via Wrexham May to Dec2011.

10.Delays to 67 loco hauled mean not now available for Dec 2011 start.

11.July 2011, 67 paths via Wrexham for Dec start not even applied for at ORR or discussions even started with Network Rail.

12.Expected ATW to ask WAG for another £2millions to run hired in 175 for another year to Dec 2012 via Wrexham due to self inflicted problems.

13.Gerald WAG1 class 57 also expected to run another year at £2millions plus, due to non availability of class 67 loco hauled trains.

the story continues.


Bob

 

[tbtc]

The shortage of capacity is East to West in my opinion

Agreed. If only those at Cardiff Bay understood this...

 

[jones_bangor]

Agreed. If only those at Cardiff Bay understood this...

Here we go again, really......

The great untapped Wrexham - Liverpool & Manchester market............

 

[TDK]

I think he was referring to Oxford - Marylebone going live rather than the increased linespeeds south of Banbury (which are indeed due this year) because it isnt until Chiltern need to commit x number of units to a half hourly Oxford service that it would be impossible to run the service with 165s, 168s and 172s.

172's will I think not be going to Oxford but on the Gerrards Cross stoppers, thats if the 172's (built by the fantastic Bombardier NOT) will ever be up and running correctly, they should have got the units from Seimens.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can I be a fly on the wall, when WAG Rail Division CS & ATW very senior management tell this to the Minister,

"Its the wrong type of train Sir, those nasty people at Network Rail say we should have thought of this first,can we have another £2millions subsidy please for hiring in the 175 from ourselves" "we thought class 175 and 67 were just trains that ran on lines "

Bob

Bob, I know this is a tongue in cheek post but it is most likely true as ATW higher management really do not know what stock they run and the problems faced with such stock, one of them even thought a class 158/175 is a direct decendant of a milk float. It won't be long before DB UK (Arriva UK) realise what is going on in Cardiff and have a reshuffle and clear out.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

ATW higher management really do not know what stock they run and the problems faced with such stock, one of them even thought a class 158/175 is a direct decendant of a milk float. It won't be long before DB UK (Arriva UK) realise what is going on in Cardiff and have a reshuffle and clear out.

Another gem that should be installed over a certain desk in the Cardiff area

 

[Cherry_Picker]

172's will I think not be going to Oxford but on the Gerrards Cross stoppers, thats if the 172's (built by the fantastic Bombardier NOT) will ever be up and running correctly, they should have got the units from Seimens.

I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything. With all due respect, you seem so desperate to correct 'mistakes' other people are making you don't take time to read their posts correctly.
The original point made by Sprinterguy was that he doesn't think Chiltern will be unable to run a service without the ex WSMR stock until Evergreen 3 is complete, and trains are running from Marylebone to Oxford. That wont be for 18 months or so, rather than September this year when the line speeds south of Banbury are due to increase. Until that point could Chiltern run a full day's timetable without any loco hauled trains? I dont know.

 

[oversteer]

172's will I think not be going to Oxford but on the Gerrards Cross stoppers, thats if the 172's (built by the fantastic Bombardier NOT) will ever be up and running correctly, they should have got the units from Seimens.

Are the 172s proving a problem then? Other than the various squeaks and rattles

 

[TDK]

Are the 172s proving a problem then? Other than the various squeaks and rattles

Yes according to the people who will be working them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not really sure what that has to do with anything. With all due respect, you seem so desperate to correct 'mistakes' other people are making you don't take time to read their posts correctly.
The original point made by Sprinterguy was that he doesn't think Chiltern will be unable to run a service without the ex WSMR stock until Evergreen 3 is complete, and trains are running from Marylebone to Oxford. That wont be for 18 months or so, rather than September this year when the line speeds south of Banbury are due to increase. Until that point could Chiltern run a full day's timetable without any loco hauled trains? I dont know.

OK, everyone makes mistakes but really to be honest it would be better harping on about facts instead of what they think will happen. It may be better to post "in my opinion" instead of this will happen. There are too many on here that take 2nd and 3rd hand information and pass it on as fact when really it is just gossip, however it makes entertaining reading.

 

[jon0844]

172s with problems?
379s with problems?
377/5s with problems?
Victoria Line trains with problems?

And Joe Public are outraged that we gave a contract to a German company!

 

[87015]

172s with problems?
379s with problems?
377/5s with problems?
Victoria Line trains with problems?

And Joe Public are outraged that we gave a contract to a German company!

In the interest of balance...
350s, 360s, 380s all late into service, still plenty of boggles with them I'm sure, certainly are with the first two.

 

[MCR247]

380 is based on a mostly new design. 377/5, extra 30 trains to a class with over 300 all ready in service.

Which sounds harder?