Wrexham & Shropshire query

[The Planner]

Not being an expert on that route what is stopping a 67 + Mk3's achieveing the same SRT's as are currently in place for 158/175?

Thanks

Sprinter differentials along the Marches.

 

[seventh-heaven]

Sprinter differentials along the Marches.

Ah! Are they significant?

 

[The Planner]

They are actually MU diffs, not SP. They are all the way from Craven Arms to nigh on Sutton Bridge (about 17 ish miles) with some fairly big differences, on average 15 to 20mph. There was one bridge with a 50mph gap.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

A

. Again, I really hope not because those WSMR coaches are the nicest coaches I have ever been in on any train. Ever.

Agreed, I travelled with WSR a while back, they were great trains and lovely staff & service, anything that avoids changing trains in New Street should be applauded. Modern stock may be faster but they are often less comfy and more crowded. At least on the older coaches you get a full view from the windows unlike many others. (I saw some of those WSR coaches yesterday when travelling past past the Willesden area on a charter from Euston, also using older coaches, Mk 1or Mk2.)

 

[seventh-heaven]

They are actually MU diffs, not SP. They are all the way from Craven Arms to nigh on Sutton Bridge (about 17 ish miles) with some fairly big differences, on average 15 to 20mph. There was one bridge with a 50mph gap.

Ah the confusion of NR differentials!! Any idea what the reason for the differentials is? In some places the MU differentials are used for purposes of limiting weight and in others due to braking curve.

 

[The Planner]

No idea, but ATW will stand a greater chance of getting dispensation for the 67s if they are braking curve based.

 

[scotsman]

No idea, but ATW will stand a greater chance of getting dispensation for the 67s if they are braking curve based.

I think it's axle weight based. On the West Highland Line Class 67s are often severely restricted on what speed it can use certain structures and parts of track at

 

[CosherB]

Glad to see the WSMR hyperbole is still alive and kicking even if they are not.

It's not hyperbole. WSMR Mk3s were superbly fitted out; far better than Virgin (but I only ever travelled in 1st).

 

[merlodlliw]

ATW have made it clear to staff that they have stored stock but are working on an 8 month lead time for refurbishment and now are indicating that Gerald2 is unlikely to be worked by the planned 67 and DVT from December

Thats interesting but not surprising, with only one year long timetable from Dec 2011, one may expect to see the 175 "Fake Gerald" run for the full year, that is of course if WAG continue to pay £25K a week, or £1.3million a year to pay for the 175 to run, on top of the £3.5,million paid or to be paid to ATW for the 67,

I don't blame ATW taking the money, but will the new WAG Govt be so keen
to throw public money around on elite services, WAg1 or Gerald is due for another transfusion of at Least £2million plus for another year from Dec 2011
unless the money tree is pruned, who knows.

Bob

 

[Skimble19]

It's not hyperbole. WSMR Mk3s were superbly fitted out; far better than Virgin (but I only ever travelled in 1st).

Did the WSMR MK3's not have the same seats in first class that East Coasts (well, GNER's!) Mallard refurbishment included? The one's that many people seem to moan about for being uncomfortable?!

 

[jones_bangor]

No idea, but ATW will stand a greater chance of getting dispensation for the 67s if they are braking curve based.

I would guess it is braking curve restrictions - the high number of level crossings adding to this?

 

[seventh-heaven]

Did the WSMR MK3's not have the same seats in first class that East Coasts (well, GNER's!) Mallard refurbishment included? The one's that many people seem to moan about for being uncomfortable?!

Certainly the same as the FGW leather ones only WSMR insisted on a change to the foam used to try to recreate the comfort of the Class 170 1st class seats that were the forerunner from the same manufacturer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would guess it is braking curve restrictions - the high number of level crossings adding to this?

Agree - the formations meet and exceed the HST brake curve that is the standard used for modern vehicles including 158, 175 etc.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Sprinter differentials along the Marches.

They are actually MU diffs, not SP. They are all the way from Craven Arms to nigh on Sutton Bridge (about 17 ish miles) with some fairly big differences, on average 15 to 20mph. There was one bridge with a 50mph gap.

If they were Sprinter speed limits, I'd guess 175s would be restricted to the slower limit due to 175s being heavier. Am I right?

If weight is the issue, how much heavier are the 67s than the rather weighty (compared to Sprinters) 175s?

WSMR coaches are the nicest coaches I have ever been in on any train. Ever.

I really regret missing out on a ride on WSMR, I was planning to do it this summer but then they stopped running the service. It is a little more difficult to get a ride on the stock now as it no longer runs into Wales. If it looks like these sets will be removed from service for another refurbishment soon (including the power-door fitment) how long have I got before they reduce the number of Moor Street - Marylebone turns using the stock to allow a set to go in for refub?

A little aside, what's going on here? Obviously, there is a Wrexham & Shropshire liveried mark 3 DVT in the foreground but what's that in the background? Looks like the Irish mark 2 DBSO to me. Does somebody out there share my opinion that the 6 remaining DBSOs (ie. the ones that aren't with Network Rail) should be re-activated to get those stored Arriva Trains Wales mark 2s out into service?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If they were Sprinter speed limits, I'd guess 175s would be restricted to the slower limit due to 175s being heavier. Am I right?

If weight is the issue, how much heavier are the 67s than the rather weighty (compared to Sprinters) 175s?

175s use the higher MU limits, like 158s, up to 90mph on some stretches.

The loco limits are, as The Planner says, quite significantly lower north of Onibury (to both Crewe and Chester).
The worst is 40mph over the A489 bridge (all of 20 yards or so) near Craven Arms, while the MU limit is 90.

It's also only 60mph Salop to Wrexham (and then on to Saltney Jn, but this is also the DMU speed on that stretch).

Another bugbear I have is the 75mph on the dead-straight and level Saltney Jn-Connah's Quay, even after LED resignalling, while it's mostly 85/90 further down the coast with semaphores!

 

[Rhydgaled]

175s use the higher MU limits, like 158s, up to 90mph on some stretches.

I gathered that from the earlier posts. What I am thinking is, if these where Sprinter rather than MU limits the heavier 175s would not be able to use them.

The loco limits are, as The Planner says, quite significantly lower north of Onibury (to both Crewe and Chester).
The worst is 40mph over the A489 bridge (all of 20 yards or so) near Craven Arms, while the MU limit is 90.

It's also only 60mph Salop to Wrexham (and then on to Saltney Jn, but this is also the DMU speed on that stretch).

Another bugbear I have is the 75mph on the dead-straight and level Saltney Jn-Connah's Quay, even after LED resignalling, while it's mostly 85/90 further down the coast with semaphores!

Sounds quite problematic that. How much heavier are the locos though, how much of a stretch would it be to allow them to use the faster limits (or how much work would be incured)?

 

[jones_bangor]

It's also only 60mph Salop to Wrexham (and then on to Saltney Jn, but this is also the DMU speed on that stretch).

Another bugbear I have is the 75mph on the dead-straight and level Saltney Jn-Connah's Quay, even after LED resignalling, while it's mostly 85/90 further down the coast with semaphores!

It'd be better if WG got their priorities right and spent money on linespeed at these locations instead of wasting it re-doubling projects to address imagined problems.

 

[tbtc]

If they speed up the line through Wales to speed up the time table then its all going to be wasted when a 150 has to deputise for a 175...

 

[The Planner]

It'd be better if WG got their priorities right and spent money on linespeed at these locations instead of wasting it re-doubling projects to address imagined problems.

Linespeed doesn't allieviate capacity issues on it's own.

 

[jones_bangor]

Linespeed doesn't allieviate capacity issues on it's own.

Didn't realise linespeed south of Wrexham was so poor...shocking in fact. I though the train goes slow on that section.....

 

[merlodlliw]

Didn't realise linespeed south of Wrexham was so poor...shocking in fact. I though the train goes slow on that section.....

Perhaps that gives a better understanding of why we want it sorted between Saltney & Shrewsbury.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

Perhaps that gives a better understanding of why we want it sorted between Saltney & Shrewsbury.

It would be better to spend money on improving linespeed through that section e.g. to 5 minutes transit time or whatever. The case for redoubling isn't there, it was just a fob to naive Minister. Redoubling will do very little to North -South journey times, would love to see the "business case".

 

[merlodlliw]

It would be better to spend money on improving linespeed through that section e.g. to 5 minutes transit time or whatever. The case for redoubling isn't there, it was just a fob to naive Minister. Redoubling will do very little to North -South journey times, would love to see the "business case".

Calling a Wrexham Minister naive is interesting, considering the antics of the previous Minister from Anglesey.




Bob

 

[Essexman]

I went on the 8.20 Marylebone - Moor Street yesterday. WSR stock - and even the same friendly Train Manager.
There was still a buffet, although I didn't realise for some time as it wasn't announced. They said they still do the bacon & sausage baps, but I didn't try one to see if as good as WSR.
A most pleasant and cheaper change from Virgin.

 

[merlodlliw]

I went on the 8.20 Marylebone - Moor Street yesterday. WSR stock - and even the same friendly Train Manager.
There was still a buffet, although I didn't realise for some time as it wasn't announced. They said they still do the bacon & sausage baps, but I didn't try one to see if as good as WSR.
A most pleasant and cheaper change from Virgin.

Yes that's we found down here,alas gone.


Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

Calling a Wrexham Minister naive is interesting, considering the antics of the previous Minister from Anglesey.

I was referring to the previous one. I have no idea of the abilities of the current minister - and would be foolish to suggest that I did after only a few weeks in their post!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

They said they still do the bacon & sausage baps, but I didn't try one to see if as good as WSR.
A most pleasant and cheaper change from Virgin.

Good old WSMR - block Virgin from operating from Shrewsbury, and as soon as the going gets tough, they p*** off! Didn't they throw their toys out of the pram to also stop the Arriva Aber - London service?

 

[TDK]

I was referring to the previous one. I have no idea of the abilities of the current minister - and would be foolish to suggest that I did after only a few weeks in their post!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Good old WSMR - block Virgin from operating from Shrewsbury, and as soon as the going gets tough, they p*** off! Didn't they throw their toys out of the pram to also stop the Arriva Aber - London service?

There is a lot more to it than WSMR just p***ing off, from the start the TOCS including LM, ATW & VT offered forward huge objections to WSMR running in the first place with also one of them saying there was no business case for the route, if that was their opinion why did they then want to muscle in on the route already operated by WSMR? In my opinion it was all spoiling tactics and the ATW bid cost them dear when rejected over aledged fudging of the figures. The Aber - London bid would have had a more substantial effect on Chiltern EG3 runnings as this is 100mph running with ATW using 90mph 158's. WSMR did not block VT from operating from Shrewsbury it was VT that decided that they would not run the service.

 

[jones_bangor]

WSMR did not block VT from operating from Shrewsbury it was VT that decided that they would not run the service.

VT had no choice - up against this company supposedly offering up this wonderful service and such high customer satisfaction ratings.....letters to MPs, petitions..........

If VT had been allowed to operate, at least Shrewsbury would now have a fast direct London service - which would probably have been enshrined in the West Coast's new franchise.......

Good old WSMR.

 

[The Planner]

The Aber - London bid would have had a more substantial effect on Chiltern EG3 runnings as this is 100mph running with ATW using 90mph 158's.

Makes no difference, if there are paths, there are paths, that's a spurious argument. Chiltern run 75mph 165s down there, so why does a 158 make it collapse ?

 

[Rhydgaled]

My earlier questions seem to have got lost, first of all:

I really regret missing out on a ride on WSMR, I was planning to do it this summer but then they stopped running the service. It is a little more difficult to get a ride on the stock now as it no longer runs into Wales. If it looks like these sets will be removed from service for another refurbishment soon (including the power-door fitment) how long have I got before they reduce the number of Moor Street - Marylebone turns using the stock to allow a set to go in for refub?

There was also this:

A little aside, what's going on here? Obviously, there is a Wrexham & Shropshire liveried mark 3 DVT in the foreground but what's that in the background? Looks like the Irish mark 2 DBSO to me. Does somebody out there share my opinion that the 6 remaining DBSOs (ie. the ones that aren't with Network Rail) should be re-activated to get those stored Arriva Trains Wales mark 2s out into service?

 

[merlodlliw]

I was referring to the previous one. I have no idea of the abilities of the current minister - and would be foolish to suggest that I did after only a few weeks in their post!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Good old WSMR - block Virgin from operating from Shrewsbury, and as soon as the going gets tough, they p*** off! Didn't they throw their toys out of the pram to also stop the Arriva Aber - London service?

Do I read you correct,implying Ieuan Wyn Jones' was naive, the way you worded your thread implied another Minister.

It was VT who pulled the plug on Shrewsbury, no one else.

As for the Aber to Marylebone 158 fiasco, it was the ORR who said no,after ATW was caught out fudging figures in its business case.

The current VT Wrexham to London service only exists, because W/S was operating a London service, ATW off its own bat gave up two paths to let VT into Wrexham to spoil W/S.

To say there is no VT service to London from Shrewsbury or ATW service to London from Aber, due to W/S objections is ridiculas, ATW did not need anyone to object having shot itself in the foot with false figures.

Even though VT/ATW/LM objected to W/S running a service it was the ORR who decided the playing field.

Bob