Wrexham & Shropshire query

[Tubeman]

Hi All

Apologies if this is covered elsewhere, but I've tried the 'search' function to no avail. I've just started working at Wembley Park depot and have seen former W&S trains on several occasions running up and down the Chiltern Line during the past 2 weeks... Now as far as I'm aware, the service ended abruptly earlier this year.

The first time I saw one last week it was a bit of a shock, as it had ancient BR blue & grey liveried MkIII coaches... I assumed it was just moving redundant stock around... but I've since seen W&S trains twice more so they definitely appear to be in revenue service.

Who are using these trains? Chiltern? Or did W&S get a stay of execution?

 

[es373]

I thought they were being used as Test Trains? That's what I heard anyway....pffft probably a lot of poop!

 

[CallySleeperKid]

Chiltern are using them on Birmingham to Marylebone diesel hauled services I believe and have been for some time now.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

There are four sets running around at the moment. I'll be buggered if I can remember the numbers, but A Shropshire Lad, Thomas Telford and Dyfrbont Pontcysyllte are the names I can think of off the top of my head. Two of the three in full WSMR livery (well, grey on silver paint with peeled off vinyl letters) are working the Marylebone - Moor Street diagrams and the other WSMR set is a test train on which Birmingham traincrew (drivers and guards) are learning the traction on.
The set which is a mish mash of old BR and Virgin West Coast coaches with a Chiltern liveried DVT is working the Marylebone - Banbury diagram.

 

[Tubeman]

Thanks... Glad the rolling stock isn't going to waste... aside from the ancient blue & grey coaches, the sets look pretty smart... and it's nice to see loco-hauled trains.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Oh, all the coaches will be refurbished in due course. It will be a shame if the rather fantastic interiors of the WSMR Mark3's are ripped out and replaced with higher density 168 style seating though. Sadly, I think it will be.

 

[barrykas]

Oh, all the coaches will be refurbished in due course. It will be a shame if the rather fantastic interiors of the WSMR Mark3's are ripped out and replaced with higher density 168 style seating though. Sadly, I think it will be.

I stand for correction, but I believe it's only the "Chiltern" sets that will be getting 168 style seating, though all of the coaches will be getting power doors eventually.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[driver9000]

The BR blue coaches are Cargo-D vehicles that were repainted into blue/grey with Inter-City lettering a few years ago. They have also painted several mk2 air-con coaches too, and very smart they are as well! As I remember WSMR were hiring the Cargo-D blue coaches as an interim measure while their own coaches were refurbished.

 

[Crossover]

Things may have chaned but I saw 67012 "A Shropshire Lad" and its rake + DVT sat in the sidings near Stourbridge Junction a month or so ago (while on the WMDR Meet) and at the time it still had full livery, including Wrexham and Shropshire branding. May have since had the letters removed

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Are there any other areas utilising such old stock in their scheduled services?.

I regret the demise of the Wrexham and Shropshire service, as though limited in terms of frequency, did provide a useful link at Shrewsbury.

 

[Darandio]

Are there any other areas utilising such old stock in their scheduled services?.

The stock is no older than the majority of coaching stock out there, including HST trailers. It's just painted in the older livery which I still think looks rather impressive.

 

[Daimler]

I stand for correction, but I believe it's only the "Chiltern" sets that will be getting 168 style seating, though all of the coaches will be getting power doors eventually.

Cheers,

Barry

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the seats themselves were being retained, with re-upholstering carried out (as in the refurbished WSMR coaches), but like you, I'm happy to be corrected!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Things may have chaned but I saw 67012 "A Shropshire Lad" and its rake + DVT sat in the sidings near Stourbridge Junction a month or so ago (while on the WMDR Meet) and at the time it still had full livery, including Wrexham and Shropshire branding. May have since had the letters removed

A set is kept at SBJ sometimes for driver training, it was there a lot when the line was closed for engineering works over Easter. The de-branding is kinda sad because it's almost as if a letter is being peeled off at a time whenever a fitter or a cleaner has five minutes. It's death by a thousand cuts.

I stand for correction, but I believe it's only the "Chiltern" sets that will be getting 168 style seating, though all of the coaches will be getting power doors eventually.

Cheers,

Barry

I really hope that is the case, but if they are going to the factory to have new doors fitted then it wouldnt surprise me if they replace the seats too. Again, I really hope not because those WSMR coaches are the nicest coaches I have ever been in on any train. Ever.

 

[mumrar]

I really hope that is the case, but if they are going to the factory to have new doors fitted then it wouldnt surprise me if they replace the seats too. Again, I really hope not because those WSMR coaches are the nicest coaches I have ever been in on any train. Ever.

Glad to see the WSMR hyperbole is still alive and kicking even if they are not.

 

[justinsteam]

I must try and fit in a ride on these sets

 

[jones_bangor]

Oh, all the coaches will be refurbished in due course. It will be a shame if the rather fantastic interiors of the WSMR Mark3's are ripped out and replaced

I don't think this is the plan....Chiltern have sourced their own Mk 3's for refurbishment and "power door" installation.

Where WSMR stock ends up is not clear, but Chiltern is DB, ATW is DB, and ATW need mark 3 stock for Gerald......I say no more!

 

[merlodlliw]

I don't think this is the plan....Chiltern have sourced their own Mk 3's for refurbishment and "power door" installation.

Where WSMR stock ends up is not clear, but Chiltern is DB, ATW is DB, and ATW need mark 3 stock for Gerald......I say no more!

It was always in my thoughts that some of this stock would end up on the WAG EXPRESS routed via Wrexham, I asked this question many times & never got a define t no. Around the time of W/S closure ATW HDD staff were to undergo training on 67s, but this was postponed "as reported in North Wales Rail News" people in ATW told me the issue had become too sensitive,& DB had directed the training be postponed, I am not convinced we shall not see this stock though Wrexham again. With £3.5 millions given to ATW/DB by WAG to hire in stock & run an open access service(WAG EX is open access/non franchise) for seven years, will ATW/DB look elsewhere first.

Bob

 

[seventh-heaven]

It was always in my thoughts that some of this stock would end up on the WAG EXPRESS routed via Wrexham, I asked this question many times & never got a define t no. Around the time of W/S closure ATW HDD staff were to undergo training on 67s, but this was postponed "as reported in North Wales Rail News" people in ATW told me the issue had become too sensitive,& DB had directed the training be postponed, I am not convinced we shall not see this stock though Wrexham again. With £3.5 millions given to ATW/DB by WAG to hire in stock & run an open access service(WAG EX is open access/non franchise) for seven years, will ATW/DB look elsewhere first.

Bob

I thought I had seen clarification before on this - but happy to repeat.

All of the W&S refurbished stock is to be used on Chiltern. It is intended by mid 2012 to have 4 takes of 4xTSO + GFW + DVT. The knowledgeable amongst you will note that this is more vehicles than W&S had. These will be added to the fleet as they go through works.

The works activity will be to fit power doors and to open out the vestibule area to make boarding and alighting quicker. This will include the removal of some toilets and replacement of those that remain with modern vacuum toilet to reduce water usage enabling the fitment of a retention tank. Other than this the interiors will stay the same.

The DVT is also undergoing work to fit door controls and a generator to enable loco to be shut down at terminus stations and stabling points.

First set should appear by end of year. In the mean time Chiltern are aiming to keep 2 ex W&S slam door sets operational on Birmingham services and an unrefurbished set on a peak Banbury to London & rtn. Incidentally the Blue Grey coaches are not owned by Cargo-d. The ones operated by Chiltern are all owned by DB. Some were bought from Cargo-d others were painted to match to improve the image when being run on W&S services with the ones previously hired from Cargo-d at the start of the operation.

Hope that is useful and clears up the debate.

No ex W&S coaches will be used on the WAG trains - these coaches will come from currently stored vehicles owned by DB.

 

[jopsuk]

Forgive me, but I can't work it out from the interent- what is a "GFW"? Surely any fully refurbished Chiltern rake would be devoid of 1st class seating, what with them being a Standard-class only operator?

 

[merlodlliw]

I thought I had seen clarification before on this - but happy to repeat.

All of the W&S refurbished stock is to be used on Chiltern. It is intended by mid 2012 to have 4 takes of 4xTSO + GFW + DVT. The knowledgeable amongst you will note that this is more vehicles than W&S had. These will be added to the fleet as they go through works.

The works activity will be to fit power doors and to open out the vestibule area to make boarding and alighting quicker. This will include the removal of some toilets and replacement of those that remain with modern vacuum toilet to reduce water usage enabling the fitment of a retention tank. Other than this the interiors will stay the same.

The DVT is also undergoing work to fit door controls and a generator to enable loco to be shut down at terminus stations and stabling points.

First set should appear by end of year. In the mean time Chiltern are aiming to keep 2 ex W&S slam door sets operational on Birmingham services and an unrefurbished set on a peak Banbury to London & rtn. Incidentally the Blue Grey coaches are not owned by Cargo-d. The ones operated by Chiltern are all owned by DB. Some were bought from Cargo-d others were painted to match to improve the image when being run on W&S services with the ones previously hired from Cargo-d at the start of the operation.

Hope that is useful and clears up the debate.

No ex W&S coaches will be used on the WAG trains - these coaches will come from currently stored vehicles owned by DB.

So am I correct in thinking all stock on the new WAG2, paid for with public money £3.5millions, will be provided by DB from its own stock?
I appreciate the loco & DV is another situation.

Now an interesting question, will DB be providing stock for WAG1 "Gerald" if the contract is extended beyond Dec 2011? and is stock being made ready
with only six months to go for Gerald, just in case. As there is talk of the 57s being dumped anyhow.

According to planner no routes for the 67s have not yet been applied for? and the year long Dec11 to Dec12 timetables are out for consultation,so time is short


Bob

 

[sprinterguy]

Forgive me, but I can't work it out from the interent- what is a "GFW"? Surely any fully refurbished Chiltern rake would be devoid of 1st class seating, what with them being a Standard-class only operator?

You're not alone in being bemused by the "GFW" code. It's good to get some clarity on other points though.

 

[The Planner]

According to planner no routes for the 67s have not yet been applied for? and the year long Dec11 to Dec12 timetables are out for consultation,so time is short

Thats not what I said, I said that the current WAG2 path won't work with a 67. There is nothing to stop ATW tweaking it to make it work, they don't need to bid for another one, they have it already.

There is also nothing to stop them spot bidding for a path at any point during the timetable, just because it isn't there at the start doesnt mean they can't have anymore.

 

[jones_bangor]

No ex W&S coaches will be used on the WAG trains - these coaches will come from currently stored vehicles owned by DB.

Is that a confirmed fact?

My suggestion was based on these assumptions:
(1) The WSMR could go straight into service on ATW Gerald following a respray in Gerald livery,
(2) The Chiltern stock will eventually be power door stock - why rip up the pristine stock in (1) to achieve this when you may as well use the DB stored vehicles you mention above to refurbish / rebuild to the spec.
(3) Gerald could continue to run with mark 2's until the stock mentioned in (1) are displaced by the power door stock in (2).....

I'm not convinced ANYONE but senior DB reps in the UK know the true situation here, the DB accountants eyes will be all over this.

EDIT - I should have added that my understanding that the TSO style of the WSMR stock is not what Chiltern want in any case - they were after the FGW HD style for the Mk3's......

 

[merlodlliw]

Thats not what I said, I said that the current WAG2 path won't work with a 67. There is nothing to stop ATW tweaking it to make it work, they don't need to bid for another one, they have it already.

There is also nothing to stop them spot bidding for a path at any point during the timetable, just because it isn't there at the start doesnt mean they can't have anymore.

Thanks.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Is that a confirmed fact?

My suggestion was based on these assumptions:
(1) The WSMR could go straight into service on ATW Gerald following a respray in Gerald livery,
(2) The Chiltern stock will eventually be power door stock - why rip up the pristine stock in (1) to achieve this when you my as well use the DB stored vehicles you mention above to refurbish / rebuild to the spec.
(3) Gerald could continue to run with mark 2's until the stock mentioned in (1) are displaced by the power door stock in (2).....

I'm not convinced ANYONE but senior DB reps in the UK know the true situation here, the DB accountants eyes will be all over this.

I agree, with £3.5millions into DBs or its subsidary coffers, I too would
be surprised if the stock went out of house, The senior DB people will know what is happening, or should with Gerald,however hiring 57s will need a time limit from whoever, its not that simple just to extend,however we shall see.

Bob

 

[hick]

Is that a confirmed fact?

My suggestion was based on these assumptions:
(1) The WSMR could go straight into service on ATW Gerald following a respray in Gerald livery,
(2) The Chiltern stock will eventually be power door stock - why rip up the pristine stock in (1) to achieve this when you may as well use the DB stored vehicles you mention above to refurbish / rebuild to the spec.
(3) Gerald could continue to run with mark 2's until the stock mentioned in (1) are displaced by the power door stock in (2).....

I'm not convinced ANYONE but senior DB reps in the UK know the true situation here, the DB accountants eyes will be all over this.

EDIT - I should have added that my understanding that the TSO style of the WSMR stock is not what Chiltern want in any case - they were after the FGW HD style for the Mk3's......

Things change. The MK3s are Chiltern's and as has been said up thread there will be 4 rakes of 5 coaches in Chilternised silver livery.

Passengers love the environment and with the remodelling of the coach ends there will be the opportunity to add more airline seats to get capacity up.

The first set is expected this autumn.

 

[jones_bangor]

Things change. The MK3s are Chiltern's and as has been said up thread there will be 4 rakes of 5 coaches in Chilternised silver livery.

Passengers love the environment and with the remodelling of the coach ends there will be the opportunity to add more airline seats to get capacity up.

Indeed they are Chiltern's, who are owned by DB, who also own ATW.

The point I'm trying to make is why would DB rip perfectly good Mk 3 sets (i.e. ex WSMR stock) to bits in order to fit power doors, then put them all back together? They can rip life expired Mk 3's they have in store to bits, put in the power doors and HD seating to Chiltern spec. And just give the perfectly good Mk 3 sets to ATW for Gerald.

 

[hick]

Indeed they are Chiltern's, who are owned by DB, who also own ATW.

The point I'm trying to make is why would DB rip perfectly good Mk 3 sets (i.e. ex WSMR stock) to bits in order to fit power doors, then put them all back together? They can rip life expired Mk 3's they have in store to bits, put in the power doors and HD seating to Chiltern spec. And just give the perfectly good Mk 3 sets to ATW for Gerald.

Chiltern no longer want the carriages as HD as you might imagine. A massive selling point of Birminghams will be how nice the trains are and how much space you get and windows lining up with seats, etc.

At some point in their life Mk3s for ATW would need retention tanks and power doors if they are to continue for any length of time and so would need modification eventually.

It is not clear what level the WAG refurb will go to, but the WSMR refurb was extensive and a lot was spent on the conversions. For Chiltern the refurbs are very low cost as 75% of the carriage has already been done (they won't touch most of the existing seating) and they won't have to go through the process of doing body work and the underside of the trains.

The WAGs 3.5million is small change compared with the challenging revenue position of Chiltern post EG3.

 

[merlodlliw]

The WAGs 3.5million is small change compared with the challenging revenue position of Chiltern post EG3.[/QUOTE]

May be small change at £3.5M, but ATW/DB also keep the fares.

W/S was dismissed for far less,if I recall


Bob

 

[seventh-heaven]

Forgive me, but I can't work it out from the interent- what is a "GFW"? Surely any fully refurbished Chiltern rake would be devoid of 1st class seating, what with them being a Standard-class only operator?

GFW - Galley First Wheelchair converted from RFM's for W&S. Galley is significantly smaller than in the RFM with the buffet bar facing onto the vestibule. This allowed the seating area to be extended by 2 window bays. Part of this extra space then lost by the fitment of a Wheelchair accesible toilet - but the module is significantly smaller in total size than anything else fitted to a Mk3.

As to the other comments - feel free to speculate. I can however assure you that my post contains the facts and not speculation.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thats not what I said, I said that the current WAG2 path won't work with a 67. There is nothing to stop ATW tweaking it to make it work, they don't need to bid for another one, they have it already.

There is also nothing to stop them spot bidding for a path at any point during the timetable, just because it isn't there at the start doesnt mean they can't have anymore.

Not being an expert on that route what is stopping a 67 + Mk3's achieveing the same SRT's as are currently in place for 158/175?

Thanks

 

[1V53]

ATW have made it clear to staff that they have stored stock but are working on an 8 month lead time for refurbishment and now are indicating that Gerald2 is unlikely to be worked by the planned 67 and DVT from December