Wrexham redouble

[merlodlliw]

I am not the one dragging the topic off in another direction, i have no problem with additional services from Wrexham, but it is difficult for you to justify 2 tph all day .

I dont see TPH will be unjustified,Arriva Bus Wales run a Wrexham to Chester Station bus every 12 minutes, Wrexham is also the largest town in North Wales,its town population alone is near 50K, small towns on the coast have up to three trains an hour,also we have the Super Prison opening in a few years which will increase footfall,when we had an hourly service in place of bi hourly more used the service,last year the small Village of Gowerton(9K) has had an extra 90 trains a week, how busy the trains at Gowerton are as a result, but more will have been encouraged to use the service. Of course there are peaks, but more trains are needed in core times,just like the Cambrian.

Bob

 

[dggar]

If there is a demand for journeys between Wrexham and Manchester how is this for an idea.

use 2 twocar 158s for the Manchester North Wales service and split them at Chester so that one 2car set goes along the coast and the other goes to Wrexham.

 

[northwichcat]

If there is a demand for journeys between Wrexham and Manchester how is this for an idea.

use 2 twocar 158s for the Manchester North Wales service and split them at Chester so that one 2car set goes along the coast and the other goes to Wrexham.

There is set to be a Yorkshire-Manchester-Warrington-Chester train every hour introduced in addition to the current service but that will likely be either a Northern or TPE service and not an ATW service. If the additional service goes ahead then I imagine there wouldn't be stock allocated to strengthening the existing service. Also your idea would mean a capacity decrease on the North Wales Coast.

 

[swcovas]

We've had this discussion many times before:

• You want to scrap the majority of north-south service and you present the north-south through journey figures in isolation to support your view, citing them as 'evidence' to 'prove' that the through services should be scrapped - conveniently forgetting all the passengers who use the services for intermediate journeys.
  
  
• You know that the through north-south services are for the main part Cardiff-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Chester, Chester-Holyhead services joined together as one service and that these individual services would still need to run even if they did not operate as a through service - ignoring the benefit that a direct service offers to passengers making intermediate journeys.
  
  
• You know the figures are incomplete and thus present a distorted view, yet you use any opportunity to shoehorn these incomplete figures into any discussion.
  
  
• By asserting these same details repeatedly, you try to create the impression that it is an accepted fact - when this is far from the truth.

I obviously don't know where you are from and don't wish to sound offensive but it really is a no-brainer for anyone that knows Wales as regards traffic flows. For reasons of geography/history and combination of both the traffic flows and "mentality" has always been East-West and I am sure always will be and why Cardiff Bay don't see and accept this I don't know. Even a half hourly service from Holyhead to Cardiff is never going to create greater thru traffic from Rhyl to Newport or Bangor to cardiff or whatever.

I think somewhere along the thread Gareth has already posted some figures of passenger numbers between North and South which show that it is a relatively minor flow. By all means have some N-S services but end of the day the natural flow from the North Wales coast is to the NW of England, from Swansea and points West its is Cardiff and into England and, I guess, from Aber and Mid Wales it's towards the Midlands. Its a fact of life and it ain't gonna change. If, God forbid, they ever decided to build a motorway/dual carriageway to conntinue the A470 north it would be empty for most of it's distance.

 

[transmanche]

I think somewhere along the thread Gareth has already posted some figures of passenger numbers between North and South which show that it is a relatively minor flow.

And those figures are quite frankly meaningless - as the north-south service is not about the number of passengers who travel the complete length (or almost the complete length) of the route. The same as almost every other rail service on the network.

In my post I said:

the through north-south services are for the main part Cardiff-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Chester, Chester-Holyhead services joined together as one service and that these individual services would still need to run even if they did not operate as a through service.

Nothing you have said changes any of that.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This is an informal forum and all opinions are valid.
It's a pity when we have comments denigrating other contributions.
Apart from ORR station usage figures, everything else can only be a personal observation or preference.
The view from Gobowen will be different to that from Newtown, Mold or Wrexham.
They are only trains, after all.

 

[swcovas]

And those figures are quite frankly meaningless - as the north-south service is not about the number of passengers who travel the complete length (or almost the complete length) of the route. The same as almost every other rail service on the network.

.

Agree but the WG are intent on creating North- South thru services which will be to the detriment of services to where the people of North Wales natuarlly travel to. What is wanted putting it simplistically without going into details of diagramming and pathing is a half hourly service along the coast to Chester/Crewe/Manchester, a half hourly service along the Marches from Cardiff to Manchester and a half hourly service from/through Wrexham to Chester and "some" North-South Wales through services. Those are the natural traffic flows.

 

[transmanche]

What is wanted putting it simplistically without going into details of diagramming and pathing is a half hourly service along the coast to Chester/Crewe/Manchester, a half hourly service along the Marches from Cardiff to Manchester and a half hourly service from/through Wrexham to Chester and "some" North-South Wales through services.

So everybody gets a 'better' service except those on the Shrewsbury-Chester line?

Being as a Chester-Manchester-Leeds service is a distinct possibility (providing that second hourly express Chester-Manchester service) I don't see that keeping the through north-south trains is a problem.

(It is strange though that the main argument given on this forum for scrapping the majority of north-south has quite simply been "nobody wants to travel from Holyhead to Cardiff".)

Those are the natural traffic flows.

As an aside, is there such a thing as a 'natural' traffic flow? Traffic flows build up over time based on the services/infrastructure available. So all traffic flows are somewhat artificial.

For example; before the M25 was built, people wouldn't have considered commuting from Brentwood to Watford, or Harlow to Slough. The M25 created new traffic flows. So historical traffic flows are no guide to future traffic flows.

If the Welsh Government chooses to spend part of its budget developing better north-south links (Cysylltu Cymru, as written on the side of the 158s) which it feels will provide an overall economic benefit to Wales, then I (as a resident of England) am in no position to complain.

 

[daikilo]

So everybody gets a 'better' service except those on the Shrewsbury-Chester line?

Being as a Chester-Manchester-Leeds service is a distinct possibility (providing that second hourly express Chester-Manchester service) I don't see that keeping the through north-south trains is a problem.

(It is strange though that the main argument given on this forum for scrapping the majority of north-south has quite simply been "nobody wants to travel from Holyhead to Cardiff".)

As an aside, is there such a thing as a 'natural' traffic flow? Traffic flows build up over time based on the services/infrastructure available. So all traffic flows are somewhat artificial.

For example; before the M25 was built, people wouldn't have considered commuting from Brentwood to Watford, or Harlow to Slough. The M25 created new traffic flows. So historical traffic flows are no guide to future traffic flows.

If the Welsh Government chooses to spend part of its budget developing better north-south links (Cysylltu Cymru, as written on the side of the 158s) which it feels will provide an overall economic benefit to Wales, then I (as a resident of England) am in no position to complain.

As I understand, a natural traffic flow is for instance a person living on Anglesey and working in Cardiff who chooses to use air rather than rail for the speed.

The M25 example quoted is I think "induced traffic flow".

Additional frequency is probably natural traffic flow as modal switch occurs when it becomes cost and time effective to use a frequent train in which work is possible rather than drive.

 

[transmanche]

a person living on Anglesey and working in Cardiff

Why bring up that false premise again?

 

[jones_bangor]

As far as Welsh Government is concerned the redoubles rational is too speed up and increase the frequency of north to south trains.

Absolutely correct point.

The driver isn't any Super Prison or untapped market to NW England.

 

[merlodlliw]

Absolutely correct point.

The driver isn't any Super Prison or untapped market to NW England.

The current driver may well change in the next few weeks,we shall see,

 

[ivanhoe]

Absolutely correct point.

The driver isn't any Super Prison or untapped market to NW England.

Tell that to the people of North East Wales. Cardiff may be the Capital but there the Economic link ends. Chester, Merseyside and Manchester are more important to many people in that region. I agree about the Prison though.

 

[tbtc]

(It is strange though that the main argument given on this forum for scrapping the majority of north-south has quite simply been "nobody wants to travel from Holyhead to Cardiff".)

For me its more about the markets on the Wales & Borders routes that are unserved (or very badly served).

The Marches used to have regular services to Bristol (I'd guess that there's some demand to get from Shrewsbury/ Hereford to Bristol)

Cardiff used to have daily services to Liverpool - I'd imagine that there'd be a reasonable "end to end" flow on this route.

There's no services from Liverpool along the North Wales Coast, despite the trade between the places.

Whilst Wrexham is a big place in potential commuting distance of Manchester and Liverpool there's no direct services (apart from a 23:01 service from Wrexham to Manchester?).

Crewe used to have direct services to Llandudno (people were discussing here recently how Staffordshire people used to travel there in decent numbers).

The North Wales Coast has lost its fast services to/from Birmingham (with them all running the slower route via Shrewsbury and Wrexham rather than the fast way via Stafford and Crewe).

There's other markets out there (e.g. Aberystwyth misses out through poor connections at Shrewsbury).

Instead, we've seen the Holyhead - Cardiff services increased from the previous one-a-day to bi-hourly plus the subsidised daily flights from Anglesey plus the "Premium Class" service, with a strong suggestion that the trains will be hourly before long. Seems to be a lot of attention focussed on one route to the detriment of a number of others.

Some unserved markets aren't Arriva's fault, of course - the way that the Wales & Borders franchise was carved up means that some routes that British Rail used to provide would now be in another TOC's territories (e.g. Swansea to Birmingham, Swansea to Bristol, North Wales Coast to Yorkshire) - such is the "private" railway.

 

[merlodlliw]

For me its more about the markets on the Wales & Borders routes that are unserved (or very badly served).

The Marches used to have regular services to Bristol (I'd guess that there's some demand to get from Shrewsbury/ Hereford to Bristol)

Cardiff used to have daily services to Liverpool - I'd imagine that there'd be a reasonable "end to end" flow on this route.

There's no services from Liverpool along the North Wales Coast, despite the trade between the places.

Whilst Wrexham is a big place in potential commuting distance of Manchester and Liverpool there's no direct services (apart from a 23:01 service from Wrexham to Manchester?).

Crewe used to have direct services to Llandudno (people were discussing here recently how Staffordshire people used to travel there in decent numbers).

The North Wales Coast has lost its fast services to/from Birmingham (with them all running the slower route via Shrewsbury and Wrexham rather than the fast way via Stafford and Crewe).

There's other markets out there (e.g. Aberystwyth misses out through poor connections at Shrewsbury).

Instead, we've seen the Holyhead - Cardiff services increased from the previous one-a-day to bi-hourly plus the subsidised daily flights from Anglesey plus the "Premium Class" service, with a strong suggestion that the trains will be hourly before long. Seems to be a lot of attention focussed on one route to the detriment of a number of others.

Some unserved markets aren't Arriva's fault, of course - the way that the Wales & Borders franchise was carved up means that some routes that British Rail used to provide would now be in another TOC's territories (e.g. Swansea to Birmingham, Swansea to Bristol, North Wales Coast to Yorkshire) - such is the "private" railway.

Currently the WG Minister wants to spend £30 to £40 millions? on redoubling part of the Chester to Shrewsbury line,for the reason of speeding up South/North services by 17 minutes,well that was the old plan before the two miles were culled, so the time saved is now far less, I am wondering how the speeding up fits into the Governments criteria

governments key priorities in improving access to work, education and health and also to social inclusion.

The WG North Wales rail task force,have used "access to Work" as the key,which in North East Wales is not North Wales to South Wales,except for politicians & the statutory sector all paid for by the private sector.

 

[jones_bangor]

Currently the WG Minister wants to spend £30 to £40 millions? on redoubling part of the Chester to Shrewsbury line,for the reason of speeding up South/North services by 17 minutes,well that was the old plan before the two miles were culled, so the time saved is now far less, I am wondering how the speeding up fits into the Governments criteria

.

I would suggest that WG became aware that the redoubling will only be a half-baked outcome and this is why the funding for the project was pulled? It was only reinstated after pressure locally, but the outcome will still be half-baked.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is an informal forum and all opinions are valid. It's a pity when we have comments denigrating other contributions. Apart from ORR station usage figures, everything else can only be a personal observation or preference.

I would wholeheartedly second the sentiments that have been stated in this posting.

 

[TDK]

The suggestion comes from Prof Cole, a key advisor to WG,however the suggestion it seems would be a semi fast service HST ruling out many 175 stops akin to Gerald, the idea in my opinion would be better served on the Cardiff/Manchester route.

I am sorry but the WG is totally out of touch if they think running HST's up the marches is a good idea. Firstly they are a waste of 125mph unit's, secondly they refused the 185's a few years back due to cost and the reason that 125mph units were not required. Are HST's actually permitted on the marches currently or through to Wrexham and the single line, I bet the WG don't know the answer to that either. Sorry but I think the railway should be managed by railway people and not people who really do not have a clue on train operations and workings.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Marches used to have regular services to Bristol (I'd guess that there's some demand to get from Shrewsbury/ Hereford to Bristol)

2 a day, hardly worth running

Cardiff used to have daily services to Liverpool - I'd imagine that there'd be a reasonable "end to end" flow on this route.

2 a day again

There's no services from Liverpool along the North Wales Coast, despite the trade between the places.

This was down to the restructuring of the franchise where the W & B franchise gained Holyhead services from FNW

Whilst Wrexham is a big place in potential commuting distance of Manchester and Liverpool there's no direct services (apart from a 23:01 service from Wrexham to Manchester?).

I believe that a direct service from Wrexham to Manchester would be a great benefit and have said before Cardiff Manchester via Wrexham and Frodsham vice the Landudno service would be great. It would be better to have services non direct from Cardiff to Holyhead with a change at Chester for the people and passengers but unfortunately politics runs the railway.

Instead, we've seen the Holyhead - Cardiff services increased from the previous one-a-day to bi-hourly plus the subsidised daily flights from Anglesey plus the "Premium Class" service, with a strong suggestion that the trains will be hourly before long. Seems to be a lot of attention focussed on one route to the detriment of a number of others.

Some unserved markets aren't Arriva's fault, of course - the way that the Wales & Borders franchise was carved up means that some routes that British Rail used to provide would now be in another TOC's territories (e.g. Swansea to Birmingham, Swansea to Bristol, North Wales Coast to Yorkshire) - such is the "private" railway.

ATW is heavily subsidised by the WG and if the WG say jump Arriva have to say how high.

 

[berneyarms]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but surely additional Holyhead-Cardiff workings mean better services for all of the intermediate journeys, such as:

* North Wales - Chester
* Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury
* Shrewsbury - Hereford - Newport -Cardiff

That cannot necessarily be a bad thing surely?

Whether or not people are going from North Wales to Cardiff is surely not the only point - people have better choice for intermediate journeys which presumably is a large share of the market, and can connect at Chester, Shrewsbury and Wrexham for other points such as Manchester, Crewe, Birmingham, etc.

I would have thought getting better connections ought to be the focus rather than having direct trains to everywhere!

 

[transmanche]

The WG North Wales rail task force,have used "access to Work" as the key,which in North East Wales is not North Wales to South Wales,except for politicians & the statutory sector all paid for by the private sector.

Again, the point of through services is not about end-to-end travel...

I find it hard to understand why this particular through service draws so much ire from a few contributors. The same 'no-one travels from end-to-end' argument can be made about so many other services, yet the Cardiff-Holyhead service is singled out.

 

[northwichcat]

Again, the point of through services is not about end-to-end travel...

I find it hard to understand why this particular through service draws so much ire from a few contributors. The same 'no-one travels from end-to-end' argument can be made about so many other services, yet the Cardiff-Holyhead service is singled out.

Probably because Liverpool (a city only slightly smaller than Manchester) has lost it's Welsh services and a considerable number of people using the Merseytravel Liverpool-Chester service change to Welsh services at Chester.

 

[merlodlliw]

I would suggest that WG became aware that the redoubling will only be a half-baked outcome and this is why the funding for the project was pulled? It was only reinstated after pressure locally, but the outcome will still be half-baked.

If the redouble goes ahead in its present form it will be "Half Baked" & you are correct the redouble is only going ahead due to local pressure. WG I understand are at loggerheads with each other,the North Wales rail think tank a WG quango wants moire services locally, yet Cardiff Bay Ministers think different.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but surely additional Holyhead-Cardiff workings mean better services for all of the intermediate journeys, such as:

* North Wales - Chester
* Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury
* Shrewsbury - Hereford - Newport -Cardiff

The current thinking is a semi Fast HST service,akin to Gerald, leaving out many stations, so little benefit to passengers at Ludlow,Gobowen, etc.

 

[Llanigraham]

ATW is heavily subsidised by the WG and if the WG say jump Arriva have to say how high.

Are they? I thought someone implied earlier that they were actually making a profit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Again, the point of through services is not about end-to-end travel...

I find it hard to understand why this particular through service draws so much ire from a few contributors. The same 'no-one travels from end-to-end' argument can be made about so many other services, yet the Cardiff-Holyhead service is singled out.

Quite!

 

[berneyarms]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but surely additional Holyhead-Cardiff workings mean better services for all of the intermediate journeys, such as:

* North Wales - Chester
* Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury
* Shrewsbury - Hereford - Newport -Cardiff

The current thinking is a semi Fast HST service,akin to Gerald, leaving out many stations, so little benefit to passengers at Ludlow,Gobowen, etc.

But it still facilitates anyone travelling between the main centres along the route - that surely would be a reasonable number of people.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

ATW is heavily subsidised by the WG and if the WG say jump Arriva have to say how high.

ATW have a contract which they are delivering (at a profit).
I don't think the relationship is anything like you describe.
For a start WG hasn't any money to throw at rail.
The franchise funding was specified long ago by the SRA (with huge UK taxpayer subsidy).
WG just manage it on a day-to-day basis.

 

[OxtedL]

Are they? I thought someone implied earlier that they were actually making a profit.

Being highly subsidised and making a profit are not distinct things. All it means is that they are being paid to operate a naturally loss making enterprise.

The point being made was that as a business you cannot expect them to go beyond what they are contractually obliged to do if it means they make less profit.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but surely additional Holyhead-Cardiff workings mean better services for all of the intermediate journeys, such as:

* North Wales - Chester
* Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury
* Shrewsbury - Hereford - Newport -Cardiff

That cannot necessarily be a bad thing surely?

Whether or not people are going from North Wales to Cardiff is surely not the only point - people have better choice for intermediate journeys which presumably is a large share of the market, and can connect at Chester, Shrewsbury and Wrexham for other points such as Manchester, Crewe, Birmingham, etc.
I would have thought getting better connections ought to be the focus rather than having direct trains to everywhere!

North Wales Coast to Chester (c 35 trains a day) was served very well before the Holyhead to Cardiff were ramped up in 2005, the previous two hourly ish direct service from North Wales Coast to Birmingham via Crewe and Stafford was cut and as a previous poster pointed out "replaced" by joining a Chester to Birmingham via Shrewsbury and Wrexham service togethar with a Holyhead to Chester one resulting in slower journey times and poorer connectivity between the West Midlands and North Wales.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the redouble goes ahead in its present form it will be "Half Baked" & you are correct the redouble is only going ahead due to local pressure. WG I understand are at loggerheads with each other,the North Wales rail think tank a WG quango wants moire services locally, yet Cardiff Bay Ministers think different.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but surely additional Holyhead-Cardiff workings mean better services for all of the intermediate journeys, such as:

* North Wales - Chester
* Chester - Wrexham - Shrewsbury
* Shrewsbury - Hereford - Newport -Cardiff

The current thinking is a semi Fast HST service,akin to Gerald, leaving out many stations, so little benefit to passengers at Ludlow,Gobowen, etc.

The current Minister is more open to thinking in terms of economic connectivity and want local people want. The North to South trains are mainly a leisure market with public and voluntary sector business travel, she is open to the argument that Liverpool and Manchester are economically important to North Wales. Having better connectivity to those English city's has more benefit economically to Wales than enhancing trains between North and South. The hourly Holyhead train proposal is something she's inherited in her portfolio which has had Ministers for the previous 5 years with a personal interest in North to South journeys, living on the Gower I doubt the issue of north to south is as important to her.

 

[jones_bangor]

North Wales Coast to Chester (c 35 trains a day) was served very well before the Holyhead to Cardiff were ramped up in 2005, the previous two hourly ish direct service from North Wales Coast to Birmingham via Crewe and Stafford was cut and as a previous poster pointed out "replaced" by joining a Chester to Birmingham via Shrewsbury and Wrexham service togethar with a Holyhead to Chester one resulting in slower journey times and poorer connectivity between the West Midlands and North Wales.

The loss of Holyhead - Birmingham's, which were loco hauled MK1s, was a result of the WCML modernisation, and the introduction of Virgin High Frequency Timetable. So the paths basically went. Anyone wanting to get to Biirmingham quickly still goes via Crewe, and change there.

 

[tbtc]

The loss of Holyhead - Birmingham's, which were loco hauled MK1s, was a result of the WCML modernisation, and the introduction of Virgin High Frequency Timetable. So the paths basically went. Anyone wanting to get to Biirmingham quickly still goes via Crewe, and change there.

The 100mph London Midland 350s manage to find a path every half hour from Birmingham to Crewe - I'm not sure why ATW's 100mph 175s couldn't?

 

[merlodlliw]

But it still facilitates anyone travelling between the main centres along the route - that surely would be a reasonable number of people.

The thinking behind the hourly Holyhead to Cardiff was of course a political aspiration by the then Minister,who also got Gerald running plus the flights from Valley to Cardiff,times have changed and the current Minister who lives in Gower is not as O Fey of the Cardiff/Holyheads asperation,plus with all respect to the current Minister,she is now looking at the North and appears not too happy with the advice's she was given by her staff & others, a major shock has occurred when the Minister was informed by a very informative AM that cutting the dueling back by two miles prevents any extra services being dreamed up by her North Wales Think Tank Quango, IE Liverpools & Manchesters from Wrexham,that is if the HST idea goes ahead, anyhow Bernyarms which in your estimation are the main centres along the route,as the HST thinking is semi fast.In my opinion years ago money was no object for asperations,however 2014 is different.