Wrexham redouble

[merlodlliw]

You are, of course, entitled to hold that opinion. I am quoting from the planning application documents, which expect 80% of employees and a majority of visitors to arrive by car. (As mentioned, there will be 120 parking spaces for an average of 100 visitors per visiting session).

You seem to be forgetting that a large number of visitors, particularly those coming from elsewhere in north Wales, are likely to be starting their journeys in places that are either not connected to the rail network (e.g. Caernarfon, Dolgellau and many other major towns) or from which the journeys would be long and involve several changes of train (e.g. Blaenau Ffestiniog and the Cambrian coast). For these visitors, improvements to rail services through Wrexham are of no significance and unlikely to affect their decision to travel by car or bus. People don't like changing trains, because the connections are not perceived as reliable, and they like having to change from bus to train and back to bus even less.

By far the largest numbers of visitors will be from the North West of England,who do have good rail connections and will not want to change train to bus at Chester.
I am pleased to read that you consider the redouble a worth while infrastructure task, I only hope it will not end up half a job.

 

[Squaddie]

I am pleased to read that you consider the redouble a worth while infrastructure task, I only hope it will not end up half a job.

I'm in favour of all projects that aim to improve our rail infrastructure.

I remember the redoubling of the Chiltern line about 15 years ago, when I was commuting daily between Marylebone and the MOD base at Bicester. Watching the work progressing daily was fascinating, and the dramatic improvement in journey times and services was worth the months of painful disruption.

 

[northwichcat]

Based on the results of an independent consultancy report carried out on the Mid-Cheshire line MCRUA think a new semi-fast Wrexham-Chester-Altrincham-Manchester service should be considered which could have an approx 90 minute journey time from Wrexham to Manchester.

 

[merlodlliw]

Based on the results of an independent consultancy report carried out on the Mid-Cheshire line MCRUA think a new semi-fast Wrexham-Chester-Altrincham-Manchester service should be considered which could have an approx 90 minute journey time from Wrexham to Manchester.

What Welsh Government had not taken into account, when culling the redouble by two miles was, it only allows three paths each way an hour, so with the North Wales WG think tank wanting more trains within the new franchise or from other TOCs into Wrexham, there will only be one path left for freight & one extra service, if the hourly HSTs go ahead.
Anyhow this is being discussed in the Senned this afternoon, personally the idea is an excellent one suggested by Mid Cheshire Rug.

 

[eisenach]

Due to electrification of other parts of the network, and IEP on the East Coast, HSTs are certain to become available in the not too far distant future, so why not consider them? Just because they are capable of 125 mph doesn't mean they need to do it.

HST on the Marches Line ? What an excellent idea, I can't wait ! 175s might be well liked, but they're only any good when you can get a seat, and they're frequently overcrowded, with standing room only. And that's with one car more than the 158s they replaced.
Leominster to Cardiff or Manchester on an HST; I look forward to it !

 

[Gareth Marston]

HST on the Marches Line ? What an excellent idea, I can't wait ! 175s might be well liked, but they're only any good when you can get a seat, and they're frequently overcrowded, with standing room only. And that's with one car more than the 158s they replaced.
Leominster to Cardiff or Manchester on an HST; I look forward to it !

Sorry my friend it's a suggestion coming seriously from a Welsh Government source for an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service using HST's. As far as Welsh Government is concerned the redoubles rational is too speed up and increase the frequency of north to south trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What Welsh Government had not taken into account, when culling the redouble by two miles was, it only allows three paths each way an hour, so with the North Wales WG think tank wanting more trains within the new franchise or from other TOCs into Wrexham, there will only be one path left for freight & one extra service, if the hourly HSTs go ahead.
Anyhow this is being discussed in the Senned this afternoon, personally the idea is an excellent one suggested by Mid Cheshire Rug.

And more people from Wrexham would use it than will ever travel to Cardiff.

 

[Squaddie]

And more people from Wrexham would use it than will ever travel to Cardiff.

But who from Manchester would ever want to go to Wrexham? When planning a rail strategy there are many more factors to take into account than what might benefit the residents of a small town in north-east Wales.

 

[Gareth Marston]

But who from Manchester would ever want to go to Wrexham? When planning a rail strategy there are many more factors to take into account than what might benefit the residents of a small town in north-east Wales.

Dearest Squaddie when I read your postings about Wrexham I am always reminded of the scene from Father Ted where Ted is trying to explain to Father Dougal the concept of "small and "far away".

I'm sure you could say the same thing about any other town of approximately 50,000 in population approximately 50 miles form Manchester and who would travel out from Manchester, however its not the point! Greater Manchester has a population of approximately 2,500,000 and the effect of its hub status within a economically strong city region comfortably spreads out to Wrexham. In contrast Cardiff is 130 miles from Wrexham and has a population of approximately 350,000. Whilst for various, cultural, administrative , national and sporting reasons Cardiff is probably more attractive than other city's its size and distance away from Wrexham, Wrexham is within the shadow of Manchester, Liverpool and the North West that's a big elephant in the room and its not shifting. Follow the traffic out of Wrexham north up the A483 and see where it goes if your in doubt- hint its not taking a round about route to Cardiff.

 

[PHILIPE]

As has been said before but perhaps not in the same words, the Welsh Government can see no further than as a route between North and South. They seem completely oblivious to any other journey opportunities.

 

[emoaconr]

But who from Manchester would ever want to go to Wrexham? When planning a rail strategy there are many more factors to take into account than what might benefit the residents of a small town in north-east Wales.

What you've also got to consider is the pull-factors big places have from smaller ones. You could also ask "Why would someone from Liverpool want to go to Ormskirk?" (which has a smaller population than Wrexham), yet the answer would be the same.

Big cities survive from commuters from smaller nearby settlements everywhere. I know many people from Wrexham who commute to Liverpool and Manchester; I even know others who go as far afield as Wolverhampton and Birmingham.

 

[Squaddie]

Dearest Squaddie when I read your postings about Wrexham I am always reminded of the scene from Father Ted where Ted is trying to explain to Father Dougal the concept of "small and "far away".

It's merely a reaction to the impression frequently gained from this forum that Wrexham is the centre of the UK's rail network and that all services must be planned in order to provide the residents of that town with through services to anywhere they may wish to go. I don't think there is another town of similar size anywhere in the UK that receives such attention here.

The Welsh Government's focus on north-south services is an admirable attempt to serve the main flows along the north coast, between Chester and Shrewsbury and along the Marches while simultaneously offering through travel opportunities for those passengers who do wish to travel easily between the different parts of the country. As much as you and Bob may wish it weren't the case, Wrexham is in Wales: I'm afraid there's not a great deal anyone can do about that.

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's merely a reaction to the impression frequently gained from this forum that Wrexham is the centre of the UK's rail network and that all services must be planned in order to provide the residents of that town with through services to anywhere they may wish to go. I don't think there is another town of similar size anywhere in the UK that receives such attention here.

The Welsh Government's focus on north-south services is an admirable attempt to serve the main flows along the north coast, between Chester and Shrewsbury and along the Marches while simultaneously offering through travel opportunities for those passengers who do wish to travel easily between the different parts of the country. As much as you and Bob may wish it weren't the case, Wrexham is in Wales: I'm afraid there's not a great deal anyone can do about that.

Alas we're still in Father Ted and Father Dougal zone here no matter how often the facts are explained you still don't get it. Your theory that the people of North Wales coast don't travel beyond Chester or that the people between Shrewsbury and Chester only travel between the two county towns and that the main flow on the Marches is south of Shrewsbury only is complete piffle. Gobowen is in England as much as Wrexham is in a wales so it needs all it's trains to go to Cardiff or Holyhead? The figures about how few journeys and what a small percentage of the overall market North to South accounts for have been posted on this forum before.

Up on the Wrexham Industrial Estate today iLl try your theory on some business owners to see if they agree that better links are needed to Cardiff and Holyhead.

 

[merlodlliw]

HST on the Marches Line ? What an excellent idea, I can't wait ! 175s might be well liked, but they're only any good when you can get a seat, and they're frequently overcrowded, with standing room only. And that's with one car more than the 158s they replaced.
Leominster to Cardiff or Manchester on an HST; I look forward to it !

The suggestion comes from Prof Cole, a key advisor to WG,however the suggestion it seems would be a semi fast service HST ruling out many 175 stops akin to Gerald, the idea in my opinion would be better served on the Cardiff/Manchester route.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As has been said before but perhaps not in the same words, the Welsh Government can see no further than as a route between North and South. They seem completely oblivious to any other journey opportunities.

In my opinion you are correct, it is interesting that the WG North Wales rail think tank chaired By WG Minister Lesley Griffiths AM for Wrexham,is advising on a better East/West rail link, I am sure this will cone to the forefront in the next few weeks.

 

[pablo]

Perhaps Wrexham would like to vote for devolution. You're welcome in England!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

But who from Manchester would ever want to go to Wrexham? When planning a rail strategy there are many more factors to take into account than what might benefit the residents of a small town in north-east Wales.

Up on the Wrexham Industrial Estate today iLl try your theory on some business owners to see if they agree that better links are needed to Cardiff and Holyhead.

I was going to quote Kelloggs as a firm with a large presence in both Manchester and Wrexham, but they've just announced cutbacks at Wrexham...
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/wrexham-kelloggs-140-jobs-go-6524317

If, magically, through services were provided from Wrexham to Manchester, I doubt the round-the-houses route via Northwich would be popular.

And when the WG discovers the cost of running (and maintaining) short HST rakes it may have second thoughts.
2018 is a long way off yet.

 

[merlodlliw]

Perhaps Wrexham would like to vote for devolution. You're welcome in England!

We border two English Counties,three Welsh Counties.so we have an escape route, some in Cardiff Bay seem to think Wrexham is in England.Unilateral declaration of independence,now thats a thought
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And when the WG discovers the cost of running (and maintaining) short HST rakes it may have second thoughts.
2018 is a long way off yet.

[/QUOTE]

As politicians may quote "we had no idea about costings,a trains a train to us"

 

[pablo]

................Unilateral declaration of independence,now thats a thought.

Make sure of your fuel supplies because the Welsh Navy might blockade you.

 

[transmanche]

The figures about how few journeys and what a small percentage of the overall market North to South accounts for have been posted on this forum before.

Carefully selected figures which give an incomplete picture by ignoring intermediate journeys...

 

[eisenach]

Sorry my friend it's a suggestion coming seriously from a Welsh Government source for an hourly Cardiff to Holyhead service using HST's.

Ah, no stops in Leominster, then ! I quite liked the idea of Deutsche Bahn, sorry, Arriva replacing the 175s with HSTs !

(On another note, I went to see the kids in London the other month, and was amazed to see the red buses being run by ... RATP / Dutch Railways / Deutsche Bahn (aka Arriva) et al. Nothing's simple these days. I hanker for the old days, growing up in Leeds, when the buses were LCT - Leeds City Transport ! And the trains were ...; oh well !)

 

[Gareth Marston]

Carefully selected figures which give an incomplete picture by ignoring intermediate journeys...

Show me some evidence then. Can you demonstrate that the footfalls of the intermediate stations served by the Holyhead to Cardiff trains have grown above the background growth in footfall seen in the last few years?

I doubt you can, what we do have though is the official figures from ORR and Welsh Government which show that North to South is a small market and a small percentage of overall use in North Wales. I'm sorry they disappoint you but I would take up your complaint with ORR and Welsh Government as this is the selective figures that they provide. We may get some more light on the subject when ORR releases the English regional usage figures later this year.

 

[transmanche]

Show me some evidence then. Can you demonstrate that the footfalls of the intermediate stations served by the Holyhead to Cardiff trains have grown above the background growth in footfall seen in the last few years?

I doubt you can, what we do have though is the official figures from ORR and Welsh Government which show that North to South is a small market and a small percentage of overall use in North Wales. I'm sorry they disappoint you but I would take up your complaint with ORR and Welsh Government as this is the selective figures that they provide. We may get some more light on the subject when ORR releases the English regional usage figures later this year.

We've had this discussion many times before:

• You want to scrap the majority of north-south service and you present the north-south through journey figures in isolation to support your view, citing them as 'evidence' to 'prove' that the through services should be scrapped - conveniently forgetting all the passengers who use the services for intermediate journeys.
  
  
• You know that the through north-south services are for the main part Cardiff-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Chester, Chester-Holyhead services joined together as one service and that these individual services would still need to run even if they did not operate as a through service - ignoring the benefit that a direct service offers to passengers making intermediate journeys.
  
  
• You know the figures are incomplete and thus present a distorted view, yet you use any opportunity to shoehorn these incomplete figures into any discussion.
  
  
• By asserting these same details repeatedly, you try to create the impression that it is an accepted fact - when this is far from the truth.

 

[cymro inside]

the following are not accounted for in the infamous/spurious three per cent nonsense. through journeys to the West Country via Newport.Bristol is important and a popular destination and the route Hereford fares are lower than any permitted...journeys such as Warrington/Frodsham etc to the South are not shown , freedom of wales tickets not shown,many people use them if they are on business in Cardiff twice in the same week,through fares to and from Ireland,many journeys more than you might expect from Cardiff and Bristol to Dublin via Holyhead rather than Rosslare.

 

[Gareth Marston]

the following are not accounted for in the infamous/spurious three per cent nonsense. through journeys to the West Country via Newport.Bristol is important and a popular destination and the route Hereford fares are lower than any permitted...journeys such as Warrington/Frodsham etc to the South are not shown , freedom of wales tickets not shown,many people use them if they are on business in Cardiff twice in the same week,through fares to and from Ireland,many journeys more than you might expect from Cardiff and Bristol to Dublin via Holyhead rather than Rosslare.

Please quantify these assertions otherwise they remain conjecture. Go on try and put a figure on them. Are they more than say 10k per annum?

 

[transmanche]

Please quantify these assertions otherwise they remain conjecture.

The same comment can be made about the regular assertions you make based on incomplete and carefully selected statistics...

 

[Gareth Marston]

We've had this discussion many times before:

• You want to scrap the majority of north-south service and you present the north-south through journey figures in isolation to support your view, citing them as 'evidence' to 'prove' that the through services should be scrapped - conveniently forgetting all the passengers who use the services for intermediate journeys.
  
  
• You know that the through north-south services are for the main part Cardiff-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Chester, Chester-Holyhead services joined together as one service and that these individual services would still need to run even if they did not operate as a through service - ignoring the benefit that a direct service offers to passengers making intermediate journeys.
  
  
• You know the figures are incomplete and thus present a distorted view, yet you use any opportunity to shoehorn these incomplete figures into any discussion.
  
  
• By asserting these same details repeatedly, you try to create the impression that it is an accepted fact - when this is far from the truth.

Tramsmarche the weight of evidence is against you don't kick off at me if you vehemently disagree then take it up with Welsh Government and the ORR I merely quote their figures. Let's face it Flint to Leominster is never going to be more than a niche market.

I challenged you to show that the footfall of the stations along the route have increased above the normal growth seen, I note you failed to address that point. Evidence not conjecture please.

 

[transmanche]

Tramsmarche the weight of evidence is against you don't kick off at me if you vehemently disagree then take it up with Welsh Government and the ORR I merely quote their figures.

I disagree with you repeatedly using carefully selected and incomplete figures to support your point of view - when you know full well that the incomplete figures do not accurately reflect the usage of the service.

It's not personal, I just think that such assertions need to be challenged - so they don't become "accepted fact" just because you keep repeating them.

I challenged you to show that the footfall of the stations along the route have increased above the normal growth seen, I note you failed to address that point.

Again, demanding evidence that fits your specific criteria. Suddenly simply showing growth isn't sufficient - it seems you will only agree to through services if they show growth over and above the "normal growth seen"?

Two can play at that game; can I now infer that the points I made in post #141 are true, as you failed to refute them or provide any evidence that they weren't a fair summary? Because that would be a bit silly wouldn't it?

Evidence not conjecture please.

Pot, kettle, black.

 

[cymro inside]

of course they amount to more than 10k per annum, there are for example at least 20 issues per day from Bangor alone to the west country via route Hereford, a thousand bookings last Friday alone for Ireland from South Wales for the Ireland v Wales match.

 

[merlodlliw]

Anyhow back to the Wrexham Redouble,The WG suggestion of an hourly limited stop hourly HST, is a suggestion, but the Welsh Government North Wales think tank have other ideas for East/West, in my opinion the already nine services a day to Cardiff via Wrexham is sufficient,anyone using Wrexham General in the morning will see 90% of passengers getting the Chester direction train. I see this on a regular basis. Politics wont fill trains, but passengers will.

On another point any of you who will have seen the proceedings in the Senned on Wednesday(Wales & Borders Franchise) will have noted the not for profit idea was absent.

of course they amount to more than 10k per annum, there are for example at least 20 issues per day from Bangor alone to the west country via route Hereford, a thousand bookings last Friday alone for Ireland from South Wales for the Ireland v Wales match.

A couple of points on that, The rugby match was a one off,plus I am sure Wrexham General as similar or bigger issues to the West Country,but is dwarfed by issues heading North.

 

[cymro inside]

I am not the one dragging the topic off in another direction, i have no problem with additional services from Wrexham, but it is difficult for you to justify 2 tph all day .

 

[8H]

I think it's a fair point not to consider only South Wales stations to North Wales stations in isolation, intermediate line of route trips, such as Newport to Hereford count, as too would longer journeys such as Cardiff into the Wirral and Merseyside conurbation where journey times via Wrexham and Chester are already competitive.

Add in better frequency and rolling stock and you get always more passengers, both just on the line of route, but also further afield as you increase connectivity onto other routes.