Would you take the vaccine?

[Richard Scott]

The government's record so far has been atrocious. Some people argue the number of premature deaths caused by the long period of locking down will far exceed the number who died of or with this virus. What if they make a similar mess of the vaccination programme and end up with more people dead than if they'd simply not bothered? A badly-planned vaccination programme might do that: Too Little of a Good Thing - A Paradox of Moderate Infection Control

They need to view these problems in the round and listen to all points of view and even after they've picked a course of action, be prepared to alter course.

They definitely know how to alter coarse as do it daily! In all seriousness I agree, the politicians are totally blinkered as if this virus is currently the only thing that matters and must be stopped at any price (and seems no price is to much to pay).

 

[yorkie]

I'd like an antibody test first. No point in wasting a dose on me if I'm already immune.

Good point - i hadn't thought of that.

Have you had severe symptoms? If not, you may not have detectable antibody levels, as a strong T-cell response is associated with mild/asymptomatic cases.

You may have T-cell immunity without being exposed to Sars-Cov-2, depending on exposure to other coronaviruses.

Unfortunately it's not cheap or easy to check for T-cell immunity.

 

[adc82140]

I've had moderate symptoms. I'm not suggesting that an antibody test is the definitive answer as to whether you've had it or not, but anyone who does display a high level of antibodies would be wasting a vaccine dose.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, absolutely. Doubt I'd be first in the queue, but. I've had so many jabs and sugarlumps over the years this one won't make any difference.

Infact, this one I'll have seen a lot of the build up to its development which will make me more knowledgeable about it than that sugarlump I ate in the 1980's.

 

[6Gman]

How can you say the vaccine has been rushed when as far as I am aware doesn't even exist yet? Devoting large scale resources, time and effort doesn't at all mean it is "rushed" to the point of poor safety.

Indeed. I think people are failing to distinguish "rushed" (pressed forward as quickly as practicable) with "rushed" (skimped).

Setting it in a railway perspective it's the difference between:

"We need to get 6S23 to Mossend as soon as possible so I'll send the relief crew in a taxi to get them there quicker"

and

"We need to get 6S23 to Mossend as soon as possible so ignore the speed restrictions and any red signal"

One is safe, the other isn't.

 

[43066]

I still think it likely.

Yes, would agree. C19 is already driving discussion on wider 'proof of immunity' implementations that transcend a paper certification, though from what I've seen it would be via something separate to a passport such as an id card. Biometric passport chips do possess a writable area which isn't current used for anything, I'm sure this has already been looked at by those in the know.

I can see that being problematic if it only gives a partial immunity lasting (say) three months and just makes the recipients’ symptoms milder rather than preventing transmission. You’d then have low risk people who travel regularly competing for multiple (scarce) doses in a year.

Indeed. I think people are failing to distinguish "rushed" (pressed forward as quickly as practicable) with "rushed" (skimped).

Setting it in a railway perspective it's the difference between:

"We need to get 6S23 to Mossend as soon as possible so I'll send the relief crew in a taxi to get them there quicker"

and

"We need to get 6S23 to Mossend as soon as possible so ignore the speed restrictions and any red signal"

One is safe, the other isn't.

I’d say it’s more like a speed record attempt: a TOC wanting get a train from A to B as quickly as possible might well be tempted to ask NR for permission to ignore a few of the PSRs along the way. NR will be a lot more likely to say yes if the government also desperately wants the record to be set.

Not necessarily unsafe, but quite possibly less safe !

 

[Bantamzen]

This is interesting... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-54375643

I feel pretty confident that if a vaccine were at a stage that it had passed the necessary testing and certification stages, and was in mass production we would not need to rely on leaks.

I'd like an antibody test first. No point in wasting a dose on me if I'm already immune.

Antibodies aren't the only indicator of immunity.

 

[Howardh]

Over in the States I notice that Trump is reportedly being given (presumably has allowed to be given) drugs which are still on trial and haven't yet been passed for public use (in the US), and according to the TV this morning could only be used in certain cases (I forget the exact wording).

Of course anything that comes out of the White House must be taken with a pinch of salt and gravy, but fair play - being a human guinea-pig for something that could save the world (hyperbole accepted!) is something I didn't put him down for.

Trump is being treated for COVID-19 with drug developed for Ebola

President Donald Trump's physician confirmed Friday night he is being treated for COVID-19 with remdesivir at Walter Reed Military Medical Center.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Trump is being treated for coronavirus with experimental Ebola drug remdesivir which helps patients improve after 11 days - four days earlier than those who don't take it

President Trump Received Experimental Antibody Treatment (Published 2020)

Mr. Trump received a single dose of an antibody cocktail made by the biotech company Regeneron. The company’s C.E.O. has known the president for years.

www.nytimes.com

President Trump has received a dose of an experimental antibody cocktail being developed by the drug maker Regeneron, in addition to several other drugs, including zinc, vitamin D and the generic version of the heartburn treatment Pepcid, according to a letter from his doctor that was released by the White House Friday afternoon.

Mr. Trump and the first lady, Melania Trump, announced early Friday morning that they had tested positive for the coronavirus. The president has a low-grade fever, nasal congestion and a cough, according to two people close to Mr. Trump.

Of course vitamin D is something natural that we all get for free - except it comes from sunshine and we ain't allowed to travel to find it!! Grrr - morning's rant over.

 

[island]

If it lets me do away with face coverings and restrictions on travel abroad, I’ll be at the front of the queue. (Or as close to the front as is permissible/appropriate for me having regard to the priority groups.)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Spot on. I won't rush, but not because I fear the safety of it. I won't rush because there are higher priority people than me.

Surely some of those "at risk" people such as the immuno-compromised won't be able to have the vaccination, so are reliant on healthy people having the vaccine to build herd immunity.

(That is unless it is more like the seasonal flu vaccine, which is offered to the vulnerable populations).

 

[david1212]

https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/03/ever...accinated-for-coronavirus-by-easter-13365637/

Every adult in UK ‘could be vaccinated for coronavirus by Easter'

Oxford university scientists working on a promising Covid-19 jab are anticipating it will be approved by early next year. Government sources told The Times that they expected a full programme, which would exclude children, could take six months or less after approval, and would probably be significantly quicker.
The newspaper states rules are being drawn up to allow a much wider group of healthcare staff to give the jabs, with drive-through vaccination centres planned to cope with the huge logistical challenge of administering vaccines to tens of millions of people. Within weeks training will reportedly begin for physiotherapists, midwives and other health professionals who are being drafted in to administer the vaccine. The armed forces are also likely to be called in to help.
‘We are looking at closer to six months and it is likely to be far shorter than that,’ a Government source said.

I've linked this source but there are several similar reports.

I am very sceptical but could be proved wrong as likewise by Easter I could win £1m or £100k on Premium Bonds.

First the vaccine(s) have to be approved, second the mass manufacturing introduced then third the administration planned and implemented. Even if the first two happen so far we have a poor track record for the third part.

Regardless of when I won't be rushing. First there are those who should be higher priority
- they are vulnerable and can have the vaccine
- their job in some way puts a high number of others at risk if they became a Covid-19 carrier
- they have responsibility for someone who is vulnerable but can not have the vaccine

Second I want to be aware of any risks or side effects.

If by July I have been vaccinated so no longer need a mask anywhere, can use public transport without concern if crowded, can go into a pub etc without booking ahead or giving track & trace details etc great but I am not expecting this.

 

[bramling]

https://metro.co.uk/2020/10/03/ever...accinated-for-coronavirus-by-easter-13365637/



I've linked this source but there are several similar reports.

I am very sceptical but could be proved wrong as likewise by Easter I could win £1m or £100k on Premium Bonds.

First the vaccine(s) have to be approved, second the mass manufacturing introduced then third the administration planned and implemented. Even if the first two happen so far we have a poor track record for the third part.

Regardless of when I won't be rushing. First there are those who should be higher priority
- they are vulnerable and can have the vaccine
- their job in some way puts a high number of others at risk if they became a Covid-19 carrier
- they have responsibility for someone who is vulnerable but can not have the vaccine

Second I want to be aware of any risks or side effects.

If by July I have been vaccinated so no longer need a mask anywhere, can use public transport without concern if crowded, can go into a pub etc without booking ahead or giving track & trace details etc great but I am not expecting this.

Let’s face it they’ve messed up just about every single aspect of this, so why should we expect the vaccine to be any different?

I’ve been giving the matter of vaccination a bit of thought over the last couple of days, and I’m still very firmly of the mind that I’m not having it, not straight away at any rate. Same for all my household, and most people in my social circles seem to be taking the same view. Boris won’t be sticking some random substance up my arm.

 

[DustyBin]

Let’s face it they’ve messed up just about every single aspect of this, so why should we expect the vaccine to be any different?

I’ve been giving the matter of vaccination a bit of thought over the last couple of days, and I’m still very firmly of the mind that I’m not having it, not straight away at any rate. Same for all my household, and most people in my social circles seem to be taking the same view. Boris won’t be sticking some random substance up my arm.

That seems to be the opinion of just about everybody I spoken to, i.e. every aspect of the government’s response has been a cock-up so I’m in no hurry to get injected.... I’ll admit to feeling that way myself.

 

[Yew]

We don't do mass vaccination for any other respiratory illnesses, I'm unsure why we're considering it for covid?

 

[Bletchleyite]

We don't do mass vaccination for any other respiratory illnesses, I'm unsure why we're considering it for covid?

Because COVID is more dangerous than other respiratory illnesses.

 

[trebor79]

Because COVID is more dangerous than other respiratory illnesses.

Debatable. It's nowhere near as dangerous as the Spanish flu, for example. It's just that there is no widespread community immunity that makes it "dangerous".

 

[bramling]

Because COVID is more dangerous than other respiratory illnesses.

The thing is the stats seem to be showing otherwise.

The numbers of deaths for people below their 80s is minimal, and seems to have improved over time which is no doubt thanks to the health profession becoming more skilled at treatment.

Trump walking out of hospital in a day or two may well be a massive tipping point for many.

 

[big_rig]

Looks like whether you want to get it or not will be academic according to this FT report (may be paywalled, wasn’t when I clicked it on Twitter)

So much for long Covid and all the rest of the arguments that it’s the great leveller, young people getting lung scarring, etc etc!

Less than half UK population to receive coronavirus vaccine, says task force head | Free to read

PM warns of ‘bumpy’ winter while data ‘issue’ blamed for 16,000-case backlog pushing numbers to record high

amp.ft.com

Less than half the UK population can expect to be vaccinated against coronavirus, the head of the government’s vaccine task force has said in an attempt to clear up the public’s “misguided” perception of the programme’s aim.

“People keep talking about ‘time to vaccinate the whole population’, but that is misguided,” she said. “There’s going to be no vaccination of people under 18. It’s an adult-only vaccine, for people over 50, focusing on health workers and care home workers and the vulnerable.

“We’re not fundamentally using the vaccine to create population immunity, we’re just changing the likelihood people will get harmed or hurt. It will be strategic.”

 

[trebor79]

Looks like whether you want to get it or not will be academic according to this FT report (may be paywalled, wasn’t when I clicked it on Twitter)

So much for long Covid and all the rest of the arguments that it’s the great leveller, young people getting lung scarring, etc etc!

Less than half UK population to receive coronavirus vaccine, says task force head | Free to read

PM warns of ‘bumpy’ winter while data ‘issue’ blamed for 16,000-case backlog pushing numbers to record high

amp.ft.com

I'm not sure that achieves anything as a strategy. Many of the most vulnerable to covid are unable to be vaccinated for a variety of medical reasons, my mother included.
Surely for a widespread respiratory disease vaccination has to aim for herd immunity? Otherwise what's the point if the vulnerable people remain unprotected?

Why have they bought enough doses of several different vaccines to vaccinate the entire population?

Edit to say a muddled up strategy on vaccination would fit with everything else that this government has got wrong!

 

[Dent]

I'm not sure that achieves anything as a strategy. Many of the most vulnerable to covid are unable to be vaccinated for a variety of medical reasons, my mother included.
Surely for a widespread respiratory disease vaccination has to aim for herd immunity? Otherwise what's the point if the vulnerable people remain unprotected?

If, as has been suggested about the Oxford vaccine, it only reduced the symptoms but doesn't prevent spread then there is no point giving it to anyone who is not vulnerable to harmful symptoms anyway.

 

[big_rig]

I'm not sure that achieves anything as a strategy. Many of the most vulnerable to covid are unable to be vaccinated for a variety of medical reasons, my mother included.
Surely for a widespread respiratory disease vaccination has to aim for herd immunity? Otherwise what's the point if the vulnerable people remain unprotected?

Why have they bought enough doses of several different vaccines to vaccinate the entire population?

Edit to say a muddled up strategy on vaccination would fit with everything else that this government has got wrong!

Who knows! I found this quote instructive too, especially for the ‘best stay inside hun, don’t want to end up on a ventilator’ crowd. Yet more evidence that we’ve shut the world as we know it down for something that for from the sounds of it everybody under 50 the potential vaccine might actually be worse than the virus itself! Almost sounds like the approach taken by a much-maligned by the powers that be country..

“Ms Bingham said that vaccination policy would be aimed at those “most at risk” and noted that vaccinating healthy people, who are much less likely to have severe outcomes from Covid-19, “could cause them some freak harm”, potentially tipping the scales in terms of the risk-benefit analysis.”

 

[PeterC]

We don't do mass vaccination for any other respiratory illnesses, I'm unsure why we're considering it for covid?

At my local health centre they did just that for flu jabs this year. The centre was taken over on Saturday, two vaccination points inside plus one drive through. I did wonder if it was a dummy run for covid.

From my point of view it was a lot quicker than having the practice nurse do it alongside her other duties.

 

[MikeWM]

If, as has been suggested about the Oxford vaccine, it only reduced the symptoms but doesn't prevent spread then there is no point giving it to anyone who is not vulnerable to harmful symptoms anyway.

This appears to be the criteria for all the 'front-runner' vaccines. Possible mitigation of symptoms, but won't prevent you catching it or transmitting it.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Possibly slightly OT but I just got my annual flu vaccine shot. The fancy name is: FLUBLOK QUAD 2020-2021 PFS -INTRAMUSCULAR

 

[island]

At my local health centre they did just that for flu jabs this year. The centre was taken over on Saturday, two vaccination points inside plus one drive through. I did wonder if it was a dummy run for covid.

From my point of view it was a lot quicker than having the practice nurse do it alongside her other duties.

One of the other reasons is that in some cases the vaccine is supplied in a vial of 10 or more doses which spoil within a day or two of opening – so they need to use them all up.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

This appears to be the criteria for all the 'front-runner' vaccines. Possible mitigation of symptoms, but won't prevent you catching it or transmitting it.

Which tends to suggest Herd Immunity Strategy imho

 

[AndyY]

From the news, it appears that a vaccine (if/when it becomes available) will only be offered to those >50.
All this time, they have been giving us the impression (e.g. from the number of doses purchased in advance from pharmaceutical companies) that every one who wants it can get it.

This comes after the schoolboy error with Excel spreadsheets for track and trace. What a shambles.

 

[bramling]

From the news, it appears that a vaccine (if/when it becomes available) will only be offered to those >50.
All this time, they have been giving us the impression (e.g. from the number of doses purchased in advance from pharmaceutical companies) that every one who wants it can get it.

This comes after the schoolboy error with Excel spreadsheets for track and trace. What a shambles.

In which case it makes a mockery of the people like Hancock trying to scare people with the threat of “long Covid”.

Sorry we don’t care about that we’re going to crack on vaccinating the baby boomers instead, could be how it gets seen.

 

[david1212]

If, as has been suggested about the Oxford vaccine, it only reduced the symptoms but doesn't prevent spread then there is no point giving it to anyone who is not vulnerable to harmful symptoms anyway.

This appears to be the criteria for all the 'front-runner' vaccines. Possible mitigation of symptoms, but won't prevent you catching it or transmitting it.

If transmission is not significantly reduced overall the benefit does seem limited to those considered vulnerable to more than mild symptoms and who can be given the vaccine.

Further if symptoms are suppressed so in effect more asymptomatic people but transmission is not potentially there actually would be more transmission ? Overall medium & long term would this be worse than the current situation ?

If successfully developed the solution would be a second vaccine that at least significantly reduces transmission.

 

[Mag_seven]

From the news, it appears that a vaccine (if/when it becomes available) will only be offered to those >50.

If that's the case then why delay in easing restrictions for those under 50? Could it be because the strategy is now to wait until a vaccine becomes available and then only vaccinate those over 50 whilst at the same time removing restrictions for those under 50?