Would we need a GWML high speed line?

[paul1609]

Given that from HS2 where it exits the chiltern AONB to Didcot Parkway is under 50 Km it would make sense to just build a short spur to West of Didcot Parkway by passing all the capacity constraints on the GWML at a much lower cost.

 

[Nottingham59]

It is not the first time that a cemetery has been moved to enable a railway line to be built.

You could build the new trainshed wirh a flat "green" roof, laying the, erm, topsoil back on top ....

 

[Bald Rick]

Not at all. If you terminate the long trains at Old Oak Common, you don't have to touch Euston at all. That's £2bn saved on the station and £1.6bn saved on the tunnel from OOC to Euston already.

And you don't have to build HS2 phase 1 or phase 2A either

but they are being built now, so you don’t save anything. And you lose all the benefit of doing so, for the frankly small benefit of having a couple of trains an hour running at an extraordinary length.

Build a surface station at Old Oak Common, connected to the WCML fast lines, with 10 x 795m platforms. Include platforms to the Elizabeth Line (perhaps two EL stations close together to save walking).

That station group looks like it’s going to be costing the thick end of £10bn. Doesn’t seem like much of a saving to me!

 

[Nottingham59]

That station group looks like it’s going to be costing the thick end of £10bn

I understand HS2 OOC is being constructed in an 800m box for £1.7bn, and you're always saying (e.g. HS2 Piccadilly) that stations below ground cost far more than stations at the surface. Your £10bn is 6 times that, so I'd be interested to see where your figure comes from?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Dec 2022 ==

[HS2 is] being built now, so you don’t save anything

Sure. There's no need to add a capacity on the WCML now that HS2 is being built. I just had the diagram and the numbers already in my head to show what could have been done instead.

But the principle could be applied to the GWML. If it helps, I'll work up an equivalent proposal for GWML and post it here in a while.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand HS2 OOC is being constructed in an 800m box for £1.7bn, and you're always saying (e.g. HS2 Piccadilly) that stations below ground cost far more than stations at the surface. Your £10bn is 6 times that, so I'd be interested to see where your figure comes from?

Well:
1) your proposal is about four times the size
2) OOC is open cut, which although more expensive than a ground level station, is rather less than a mined station (as would be needed for the underground Piccadilly proposal)
3) your proposal is rather more than a (very large) station, there are also approach tracks and the tie in with the WCML. I‘d be interested to know how you think that would work, in particular the effect it would have on the existing WCML and West London Line. It looks to me like a comprehensive rebuild of the West London Junction area, with multiple grade separations required.
4) you also have the cost of another 2 stations on the GWML
5) OOC was a brown field site. Kensal Green cemetery is a Grade 1 listed Historic Park of Special Historic Interest. I suspect the only way you’d be able to build a station there is to mine it underground. I’m not aware of anywhere in the world that has a mined station of this scale; it’s essentially about 15 times the size of a Crossrail station. On reflection, £10bn was rather a underestimate…

 

[Snow1964]

Simple answer is no, but there are some short cutoffs aligned for high speed with flying junctions that would be useful. In some cases a third reversible centre track might be cheaper solution.

1) Old Oak to Heathrow airport junction (to allow semi fast trains to use busy current tracks)
2) Didcot to Swindon West, there was some 4 tracking at either end and near Challow, but really needs a third track throughout
3) Near Marlborough and Savernake, where all sorts of branches used to exist and the main line is very slow and curvy having been bodged out of local lines

 

[RobShipway]

No, but has there been a recent case of an active cemetery being removed?

I thought there was a cemetery being moved for HS2?

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought there was a cemetery being moved for HS2?

There was. The St James Cemetery at Euston.

To put it into context, this was a cemetery from the 18th and 19th century (last burial in 1853), occupied about 11,000 sq m of space, and took a couple of hundred archaeologists 3 years to carefully exhume the bodies contained therein, and re-inter them at Brookwood cemetery.

Kensal Green Cemetery, conversely, is still active and is almost 30 times larger. It also contains the remains of, amongst many other luminaries, IK Brunel, Marc Brunel, Phillip Hardwicke, and Joseph Locke.

I’ll leave it for others to ruminate on whether building what would be by far the biggest station in the country (and possibly the world?) there would be realistic.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Simple answer is no, but there are some short cutoffs aligned for high speed with flying junctions that would be useful. In some cases a third reversible centre track might be cheaper solution.

1) Old Oak to Heathrow airport junction (to allow semi fast trains to use busy current tracks)
2) Didcot to Swindon West, there was some 4 tracking at either end and near Challow, but really needs a third track throughout
3) Near Marlborough and Savernake, where all sorts of branches used to exist and the main line is very slow and curvy having been bodged out of local lines

Here's what I would do, but some of it probably isn't necessary if I'm honest. New alignment from London to Reading and maybe Didcot East, with an dive-under/flyover at Didcot East leading to a new pair of fast tracks added to the Didcot-Oxford line which would be used by GWR fast and Cross-Country services. Possibly build a branch to Newbury to provide a frequent local service to the smaller stations while the fasts take the new line. Or you could 4 track Reading-Newbury, as well as include the short line to bypass the 70mph restriction just after Bedwyn. Would the Western Approach to Heathrow line be built as well? Maybe some services could run via Heathrow?

 

[Benjwri]

New alignment from London to Reading and maybe Didcot East,

Realigning the GWML is entirely infeasible, the entire line is effectively surrounded by towns that have sprung up thanks to the line, realigning it, unless you’re planning of sending the entire thing underground, would not be financially possible, and would cause huge economic damage

 

[FGWHST43009]

Realigning the GWML is entirely infeasible, the entire line is effectively surrounded by towns that have sprung up thanks to the line, realigning it, unless you’re planning of sending the entire thing underground, would not be financially possible, and would cause huge economic damage

What I'm suggesting is a new line. The sections that probably need capacity relief are London-Reading, Didcot-Oxford and possibly Reading-Newbury. Didcot-Wootton Bassett could be a candidate for 4-tracking

 

[HSTEd]

Worth noting that Old Oak Common to Swindon via Reading is only a few kilometres shorter as the crow flies than going via Oxford. Going via Oxford would relieve journeys to points west whilst not pointlessly duplicating the railway to Reading itself.

Although that would mean putting a second high-speed line through the Chilterns!

 

[Benjwri]

What I'm suggesting is a new line. The sections that probably need capacity relief are London-Reading,

Yeah, what I’m asking is where is the new line going? The area between Reading and London is heavily built up already.

 

[JonathanH]

Yeah, what I’m asking is where is the new line going? The area between Reading and London is heavily built up already.

100% tunnel I would imagine.

 

[Benjwri]

100% tunnel I would imagine.

London Paddington to Reading is 54 km as the crow flies, which is nearing world record levels anyways, not to mention the lack of any kind of hills meaning you have to tunnel down quite far as well, and the river and associated water table significantly complicating things.

 

[FGWHST43009]

Yeah, what I’m asking is where is the new line going? The area between Reading and London is heavily built up already.

It'll probably end up having a lot of tunnels like HS2. I mean, most of HS2 is in tunnel going out of London. I don't know how feasible adding 2 extra tracks between Old Oak Common and Heathrow Airport Junction would be

 

[Brubulus]

What about converting the GW fasts to a 230kmh ERTMS operation between Paddington and Didcot, with 6 tracking to Airport Junction, as the capacity constraints mostly end there. 6 tracking doesn't look too difficult, though there may be problems around West Ealing and Ealing Broadway.

 

[Mikey C]

There was. The St James Cemetery at Euston.

To put it into context, this was a cemetery from the 18th and 19th century (last burial in 1853), occupied about 11,000 sq m of space, and took a couple of hundred archaeologists 3 years to carefully exhume the bodies contained therein, and re-inter them at Brookwood cemetery.

Kensal Green Cemetery, conversely, is still active and is almost 30 times larger. It also contains the remains of, amongst many other luminaries, IK Brunel, Marc Brunel, Phillip Hardwicke, and Joseph Locke.

I’ll leave it for others to ruminate on whether building what would be by far the biggest station in the country (and possibly the world?) there would be realistic.

Removing such a major cemetery would never happen now, but it's the sort of thing the Brunels would have been happy to propose

 

[cle]

What about converting the GW fasts to a 230kmh ERTMS operation between Paddington and Didcot, with 6 tracking to Airport Junction, as the capacity constraints mostly end there. 6 tracking doesn't look too difficult, though there may be problems around West Ealing and Ealing Broadway.

I would think a tunnel from west of OOC to west of Airport Junction would be the simplest way. Possibly tunnelled to beyond Slough, with some additional semi-fast Crossrail services to there using the current fasts (maybe to Windsor) - but that might be too far. You could retain HEx easily if that was desirable - stick it onto Crossrail with an Ealing call maybe.

There certainly is a 5th track on the reliefs side which isn't that well used, but I don't think that is really going to achieve much in this context. More for Crossrail and extending more west of OOC in future.

But I don't think there are many capacity issues west of Reading, other than going hourly on the semi-fasts to Exeter - maybe another WoE service but that could be the Exeter extended. Equally I'm not sure Crossrail demand west of OOC/AJ will be that much more than today - possibly a 2tph into Hayes bay or so, but nothing too drastic - so I don't know if you'd fill a HSR really. I don't think Bristol or Cardiff need 4tph

 

[The Ham]

When I've contemplated this in the past I've wondered if you skip Reading and run direct from London to (for example) Salisbury when you then split to serve Bristol/Cardiff, Southampton, and Exeter/Plymouth.

How much new track you need beyond that is open for debate, but probably not a load.

 

[HSTEd]

When I've contemplated this in the past I've wondered if you skip Reading and run direct from London to (for example) Salisbury when you then split to serve Bristol/Cardiff, Southampton, and Exeter/Plymouth.

How much new track you need beyond that is open for debate, but probably not a load.

I certainly think either going via the major cities on the South Coast or via Oxford is preferable to a routing via Reading.

No point duplicating the fast-ish existing line when you can achieve transformational effects for the likes of Oxford or the South Coast.

 

[cle]

Going via Oxford if heading to Bristol and the SW seems nuts.

As for the SW, I would think that well-served from a fast new line to Reading and down to Basingstoke / Winchester etc - to fill up the paths - but it wouldn't be tons faster than a fast train from Waterloo.

I can't see that anywhere else would be worth the investment. Exeter being much quicker than today would need a huge investment. Cornwall would be great to have a quicker route in the summer, but highly seasonal.

 

[HSTEd]

Going via Oxford if heading to Bristol and the SW seems nuts.

Swindon-Oxford-Old Oak Common is only 7-8km longer as the crow flies than Swindon-Reading-Old Oak Common. At 320km/h that is about 90 seconds worth.

It's the magic of triangles!

As for the SW, I would think that well-served from a fast new line to Reading and down to Basingstoke / Winchester etc - to fill up the paths - but it wouldn't be tons faster than a fast train from Waterloo.

I think if yuo were going to do it you'd go all in on the South Coast and run via Brighton, its about 60km further than a direct route but you will still beat the classic train thanks to the extreme performance of modern high speed units.
And if you could relieve the SWML, the Brighton Main Line and the PDL all with one go you probably won't have trouble filling it up.

Based on Shinkansen practice, with a half dozen stops you might still manage 80 minutes or less to Bournemouth.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Goodness me they can’t even get the wires up to Bristol Temple Meads.

 

[Irascible]

I can't see that anywhere else would be worth the investment. Exeter being much quicker than today would need a huge investment. Cornwall would be great to have a quicker route in the summer, but highly seasonal.

Well, not so seasonal anymore, but the chances of HSR to Exeter & beyond are ... small. Birmingham is actually nearer Exeter than London... anyone want to figure out the journey time for HSR to Brum ( presumably with a Bristol stop ) & then back down HS2?

 

[cle]

Well, not so seasonal anymore, but the chances of HSR to Exeter & beyond are ... small. Birmingham is actually nearer Exeter than London... anyone want to figure out the journey time for HSR to Brum ( presumably with a Bristol stop ) & then back down HS2?

That woulds be a very magical triangle.

The B&H is a very nice hypotenuse though, and unlikely to justify much investment - or replacement. So even HSR to Bristol and then down to Exeter - would be unlikely to be quicker. Getting B&H up to 125 the whole route might be better value, but even then I'm not sure how much time is lost.

I just can't see where you'd send all these trains.

 

[swt_passenger]

I just can't see where you'd send all these trains.

Probably Tavistock if previous fantasy GW discussions are anything to go by…

 

[FGWHST43009]

6 tracks Paddington - Airport junction. Upgrade Wootton Bassett & Didcot East junctions. Possibly 250km/h Airport junction to Bristol Parkway. Upgrade & electrify Berks & Hants, Cherwell Valley, Cotswold and South Wales lines with higher speeds and straighter track. New 125mph cross-country line to enable fast Cardiff/Bristol to Southampton/Portsmouth services. New 125mph Exeter - Penzance line. All electric of course.

 

[Benjwri]

New 125mph cross-country line to enable fast Cardiff/Bristol to Southampton/Portsmouth services. New 125mph Exeter - Penzance line. All electric of course.

Exactly how many hills are you planning on either demolishing or tunnelling through for that? Both those lines would have to pretty much be tunnels the entire way, to call that expensive would be an understatement.

 

[HSTEd]

Exactly how many hills are you planning on either demolishing or tunnelling through for that? Both those lines would have to pretty much be tunnels the entire way, to call that expensive would be an understatement.

It is highly likely that any new railway lines in the UK will be dominated by tunnel, with a handful of minor exceptions in those truly deep rural locations that are not national parks or AONBs or any other designation.