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Would this help?

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SprinterMan

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Hello, I think this is the right pace in the forum for this.
The other day I was thinking about all the various franchises and how they overlap, and was wodering if the following would make the railways better. I haven't taken into account IEP, Crossrail and all the new electrification so please look at this as if those things weren't happening, or will be sorted later :P

ScotRail
All fine really - Have all trains passing through Prestwick International Airport station call at it, and adervtise it more to be used for Airport passengers maybe?


NXEA, C2C, FCC
Merge C2C, NXEA and the GN part of FCC into a new "Super Anglia" franchise, and give them LM's & Northens 321/322 fleets. Look into reopening Fulbourn, Soham and Leiston stations. Ban 321s north of Ipswich. All Norwich services are 90 + Mk.3 formations apart from a few peak hour services that are 12 car 317/7 formations that run with a snack trolley to compensate for the lack of a buffet car. Serve Angel Road, Manea, Shippea Hill, Lakenheath, Eccles Road, Harling Road, Spooner Row & Buckenham with a more frequent service.


Southern, SouthEastern, FCC
Merge Southern , SouthEasten and Thameslink routes into larger Southern franchise. Run the Milton Keynes trains through to Brighton and brand both Bedford & Milton Keynes routes as Thameslink and timetable them to connect with WCML and MML services. Remove Gatwick Express, it is a rip-off and not particularly fast, and replace it with a new 1/4 hourly "Premier" service calling Victoria - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - Gatwick Airport - Haywards Heath - Brighton/Eastbourne, using pairs of 442s, splitting the train at Haywards Heath. Electrify Marshlink and Uckfield lines and give 171s to TPX. Classify 3 car 375/377s as Class 375 and 4 car 375/377s as Class 377. Stop Wandsworth - Kensington Service.


South West Trains
Extend platforms on Lyminton branch and dedicate a 450 to it. Take over Reading-Gatwick services and run with 158/159s.
Recieve extra 158s from Northern.


Heathrow Express
Build pantograph cars for Class 460s and draft them over to HEx. Transfer all Class 332s to Northen to cover for loss of 321/322 and for expansion.


Heathrow Connect
All fine really - Call trains at Acton Main Line maybe?


Chiltern & London Midland
Merge into "Chiltern Midland Express". Treat Chiltern Mainline as "Premier" London route and use former WSMR sets to fully compete with Virgin (as they are doing now). Build new Bicester curve for new Marylebone-Oxford services (as they are doing now). Transfer remaining 321s to NXEA and ALL 150s to Northern/FGW (as they are doing). New Class 172s replace 150s (as they are doing). Take over Banbury-Oxford from FGW and run Stourbridge Junction-Leamington Spa trains through to Oxford, giving Heyford & Tackley a decent regualr service to Birmingham, at the expense of their peak-only London service. New peak-hour only non-stop Northampton-Euston service to repalce withdrawn limited Virgin Service. Give St Albans Abbey branch to London Overground. Look into new Oxford/Aylesbury-Bedford services via Bicester/Quainton Road respectively, new stations at Steeple Clayton & Winslow and new "High-Level" platforms at Bletchley.


London Overground
Merge newly-acquired St Albans Abbey branch with Watford DC Line and run new Euston - St Albans Abbey service with Dual-voltage Class 378 via some new pointwork at Watford Junction.


Grand Central
Recieve 4 of 5 stored class 180s to replace their 3 HSTs that will go to CrossCountry.

Hull Trains
Recieve 1 of 5 stored class 180s to give them some slack in their fleet, allowing them to run a better service
.

Arriva Trains Wales
Swap all pacers with Northern Rail for 150s.
Give borderlands line to Merseyrail.
Run both WAG1 and WAG2 trains with 57 + Mk.2 formations (as WAG1 does now) and call additionally at Colwyn Bay and Hereford.


First Great Western
Swap all pacers with Northern for 150s.
Recieve extra 158s from Northern.
Give Oxford-Banbury route to Chiltern.
Run stopping Cotswold line services with 158s and fast Cotswold line services with HSTs.
Give Reading-Gatwick route to SWT.
New London - Maidenhead - Reading - Newbury - Hungerford - Bedwyn - Pewsey - Westbury - Frome - Castle Cary - All stations to Weymouth service using either HSTs or 158s for the Olympic sailing events and to compete with SWT.
Refurbish Class 165/1 and 166 to Chiltern 165/0 standard (new & better air con, no opening windows etc.).
Run most Avonmouth trains through to Severn Beach.


Virgin Trains
Large pendolino order to replace all Voyagers.
Electrify Crewe-Chester, Man Pic-Bolton-Preston and Preston-Blackpool North.
Cancel Wrexham - Euston service and revert to Class 57 haulage on Chester - Holyhead services. Do not sell 6 Class 57s to Network Rail. Take over Manchester-Scotland service from Trans-Pennine Express. Introduce Blackpool North-Euston Services. Transfer all Voyagers to CrossCountry. Pendolinos now used on all services. Stop serving Northampton as it is only limited service anyway. Pretendolino is kept as back-up.


CrossCountry
Recieve 21 Voyagers from Virgin. Reform 221142/43/44 as 4 car sets as they were originally. Remove tilt equipment & Buffets to bring into line with the rest of the fleet. Stop serving Guildford & Bath as these oddly timed 1 train per day services are pointless. Stop running trains via the Severn tunnel - The only XC trains into wales are now the Nottingham - Cardiff trains via Lydney. Build new Worcester parkway station on Birmingham-Bristol Mainline WITHOUT closing Shrub Hill. Re-introduce Manchester-Brighton trains calling at (The North)-Reading-East Croydon-Gatwick Airport-Haywards Heath-Brighton using the new inherited voyagers. Also, use the inherited voyagers to run more service as double sets. Use catering trolley with hotplate type thing to serve warm food (if heath & safety will allow) and overhaul bathrooms on all sets. Recieve Grand Central's HSTs and use them on Edinburgh-Plymouth route. Use HST fleet more intensively. Serve Manea regularly.


East Coast
Run a few more trains to Lincoln & Harrogate if possible.
Re-engine the inherited EMT HST with MTU engines and give the VP185 engines back to EMT to be used as spare engines.
Re-let franchise when the government sees it to be appropriate.


East Midlands Trains
Norwich-Liverpool through trains stopped.
Transfer Nottigham-Liverpool to Trans-Pennine Express.
Run Nottingham-Norwich via the following route: Norwich-Thetford-Ely-March-Peterborough-Stamford-Oakham-Melton Mowbray-Loughborough-East Midlands Parkway-Nottingham.
Take over Worksop-Lincoln, Barton - Cleethorpes and the Gainsborough - Barnetby via Brigg line from Northern. Run trains from Nottingham to Lincoln via Mansfield & Worksop and Nottingham to Cleethorpes via Mansfield, Worksop and Brigg.
Run most Grimsby trains through to Cleethorpes.
Fleet remains the same - new services are worked by spare stock no longer needed for Norwich-Liverpool trains.


Trans-Pennine Express
Give Manchester-Scotland services to Virgin.
Take over Nottingham-Liverpool services from EMT.
Inherit Class 171s from Southern, convert back to 170s and use to increase capacity and/or operate new Nottingham-Liverpool services. Reintroduce Windermere-Manchester Airport through trains with 185s cascaded from Scotland services.


Merseyrail
Given Class 150s by Northern, including that set with no toilet Northern got from LM. All sets refurbished to 507/508 standard (new light clusters, new interior, toilets removed to save on weight/maintenance etc.).
Borderlands line taken over from ATW and refurb'ed 150s used on it.
New service: Ellesmere Port - Stanton & Thornlow - Ince & Elton - Helsby - Frodsham - (Halton Curve) - Runcorn - Liverpool South Parkway - West Allerton - Mossley Hill - Edge Hill - Liverpool Lime Street to give Elesmere port decent service in both directions, and to put the Halton curve into regular use. Northen no longer run south of Warrington Bank Quay on the Earlestown - Chester line. A few former SouthEastern or London Overground Class 508s can be heavily refurbished and pressed into service if capacity on the electrified routes becomes an issue.


Northern
Class 142/143s inherited from ATW/FGW.
Class 150s inherited from LM.
Class 332s inherited from HEx.

Class 321/322s transferred to NXEA.
Class 158s transferred to FGW/SWT.
Class 150s transferred to FGW/ATW/Merseyrail
Class 180s transferred to GC/HT

Northern seem to have come off worse in alot of my transfers so far. Lets remedy that :P

Government subsidised large (110+) order for LM-style Class 172s to replace classes 142/143/144 and to cover for transfer of classes 150/158 and for expansion to show that the gorvernment do care about the North of the country :P

Runcorn-(Halton Curve)-Chester & Ellesmere port line service are all transferred to Merseyrail. Northern operate 4 Liverpool Lime Street - Warrington Bank Quay and return trains per day, but do not venture south of Warrington Bank Quay or serve Runcorn at all anymore.

Worksop-Lincoln, Worksop-Cleethorpes and Barton-Cleethorpes all transferred to East Midlands trains.

Re-site Teesside airport station closer to the airport and give it a proper service.

New services: Carlisle - Whitehaven - Barrow - Carnforth - Lancaster - Morecambe - Heysham

Man Vic - Bolton - Blackburn - Clitheroe - Settle - Carlisle

3 return trains per day Stockport - Stalybridge via Reddish South.


What do you railwaymen & women think of my proposals? Any comments would be welcomed. Go easy on me as I am relatively new-ish here and I know this has a few flaws (money ect.) and it has taken me about 4 hours to work out & type :P
 
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DarloRich

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I am not having any more bloody 180's with Grand Central. That is the only treat i get - going on a nice train!

Give XC the 180's and let GC have thier HST!
 

MidnightFlyer

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If you reroute Norwich-Nottingham via Leicester, won't Peterborough-Grantham and Grantham-Nottingham services be cut by 50%?
 

valenta

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I am not having any more bloody 180's with Grand Central. That is the only treat i get - going on a nice train!

Give XC the 180's and let GC have thier HST!

Exactly what I was thinking. What are they doing selling their HST's, 180's are of a far inferior quality.
 

driver9000

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Manchester Victoria-Carlisle, is this an extension of the Clitheroe service or an addition?

The way I read it is Northern essentially has its entire fleet replaced by 172s after a period of being sole operator of 14x types. What would happen to the 153, 155 and 156s operated by Northern? I'm all for a huge new fleet replacing worn out stock wearing Northern colours though!

I agree with 180s to XC too, it would keep them all together and boost their capacity.
 

exile

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The Merseyrail franchise is "electrics only", the diesel services, though branded as Merseyrail City Line are actually operated by Northern.
 

driver9000

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You propose a Carlisle to Heysham service via Barrow, which I take is an extension of the existing Cumbrian Coast service....or are you suggesting an additional service on this new route in addition to the existing service ?

This could be done as an extension as some diagrams come off the coast then work to Morecambe. I think I'd like to see the Heysham service stay as Leeds-Heysham to give a NW port a link with Yorkshire, obviously with an improvement in accommodation possibly using the 156s I'm assuming would stay with Northern.
 
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HST Power

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On the FCC side of things, aren't they going to start connecting parts of the GN to the Thameslink Route anyway? And I'd much rather take more 365 Networker's in than a whole host of 321s.
 

class377man

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Will comment on the only TOC/area I know enough about to answer.

Southern, SouthEastern, FCC
Merge Southern , SouthEasten and Thameslink routes into larger Southern franchise.

Agreed.

Run the Milton Keynes trains through to Brighton and brand both Bedford & Milton Keynes routes as Thameslink and timetable them to connect with WCML and MML services.

I'd like to see a SN/LM joint service between Brighton and Birmingham but I have no idea if the paths exist. I'm sure getting 350's cleared to Brighton and 377s to Birmingham wouldn't be too problematic.

Remove Gatwick Express, it is a rip-off and not particularly fast, and replace it with a new 1/4 hourly "Premier" service calling Victoria - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - Gatwick Airport - Haywards Heath - Brighton/Eastbourne, using pairs of 442s, splitting the train at Haywards Heath.

I don't think there's enough 442s or paths to do this every 15 minutes although I'm not sure, especially if you want to re-introduce XC to Brighton which I think would be largely pointless. Gatwick arguably needs a non-stop service (although not every 15 minutes) and it certainly shouldn't cost more.

Electrify Marshlink and Uckfield lines and give 171s to TPX. Classify 3 car 375/377s as Class 375 and 4 car 375/377s as Class 377. Stop Wandsworth - Kensington Service.

Are there actually any differences between 375s and 377s? I'm pretty sure they have the same couplers now although I'm not sure if the software allows them to run in multiple together.

I would also suggest electrifying Gatwick to Reading (well, Reigate to Wokingham) should take priority over Marshlink. Can Sprinters keep to Turbo times?
 

STEVIEBOY1

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Some very good and interesting suggestions here. Bring back more 125s.
 

driver9000

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Is it possible for Northern to 'inherit' the Heathrow 332s? I thought they were directly owned by BAA and Heathrow Express is outside of the normal franchising scheme.

If not Northern would need alternative electric traction to replace the 32x traction lost.
 

SprinterMan

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To answer some questions:

You propose a Carlisle to Heysham service via Barrow, which I take is an extension of the existing Cumbrian Coast service....or are you suggesting an additional service on this new route in addition to the existing service ?

Manchester Victoria-Carlisle, is this an extension of the Clitheroe service or an addition?.

Extensions of existing services in most cases

The way I read it is Northern essentially has its entire fleet replaced by 172s after a period of being sole operator of 14x types. What would happen to the 153, 155 and 156s operated by Northern? I'm all for a huge new fleet replacing worn out stock wearing Northern colours though!

I agree with 221s to XC too, it would keep them all together and boost their capacity.

Northern would keep their 153s/155s/156s as they are capable of running in multiple with 172s I think (LM did some trials with 172+153 formations didn't they?)

If you reroute Norwich-Nottingham via Leicester, won't Peterborough-Grantham and Grantham-Nottingham services be cut by 50%?

The Grantham-Nottingham market isn't huge, a slight retimetabling could fix this, and more East Coast services can call at Grantham now more paths are available :)

The Merseyrail franchise is "electrics only", the diesel services, though branded as Merseyrail City Line are actually operated by Northern.

I know, I'm saying merseyrail should be given some 150s to run some Diesel services themselves to give Ellesmere port a better service

On the FCC side of things, aren't they going to start connecting parts of the GN to the Thameslink Route anyway? And I'd much rather take more 365 Networker's in than a whole host of 321s.

You are correct, although this is reliant on Kings Lynn & Cambridge services going over to IEP operation, I think, which I haven't taken into account :P

I'd like to see a SN/LM joint service between Brighton and Birmingham but I have no idea if the paths exist. I'm sure getting 350's cleared to Brighton and 377s to Birmingham wouldn't be too problematic.

Southern have hired LM 350s to work their lines before, so i assume they are cleared.

Are there actually any differences between 375s and 377s? I'm pretty sure they have the same couplers now although I'm not sure if the software allows them to run in multiple together.

I would also suggest electrifying Gatwick to Reading (well, Reigate to Wokingham) should take priority over Marshlink. Can Sprinters keep to Turbo times?

The only difference bewteen class 375 and 377 these days are who operates them. The rest is just red tape, hence I would love them to be reclassified.
I assume a 158 could keep to 166 timings as they both have basically the same drivetrains.

Is it possible for Northern to 'inherit' the Heathrow 332s? I thought they were directly owned by BAA and Heathrow Express is outside of the normal franchising scheme.

If not Northern would need alternative electric traction to replace the 32x traction lost.

I'm not sure of this myself, I did this on the basis that BAA sold them to Angel Trains :P

Some very good and interesting suggestions here.

Thank you very much :)
 

ainsworth74

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but are they not on lease to GC for a certain period? I suppose XC would have to do a deal and buy out the lease.

I suppose XC could buy out the lease if they wanted to but they would have to offer more than GC were already paying and seeing as TOCs won't do things like that without DfT backing I don't see it happening any time soon. To be honest DarloRich I think you're worrying about not much. Be more concerned when GC finally sort out getting hold of some Polaris trains from CSRE and when that happens I will join you in being worried and upset ;)
 

DarloRich

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I suppose XC could buy out the lease if they wanted to but they would have to offer more than GC were already paying and seeing as TOCs won't do things like that without DfT backing I don't see it happening any time soon. To be honest DarloRich I think you're worrying about not much. Be more concerned when GC finally sort out getting hold of some Polaris trains from CSRE and when that happens I will join you in being worried and upset ;)

I understand they are (perhaps were, it has gone quiet afaik)favorites to get the first trial set.

I am open minded. I HOPE it will be a decent train. I doubt it will be but, i am prepapred to judge on delivery.

The 180's are almost as bad, vibration wise, as a voyager.
 

driver9000

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My quote in Sprintermans reply has been altered from 180s to 221s in reference to XC. I originally agreed with DarloRich who said 180s should go to XC rather than GC :)

I would rather see Voyagers lengthened instead instead of shortened again. The 4 car sets with XC already can't cope.
 

NSEFAN

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SprinterMan said:
NXEA, C2C, FCC...
I like the idea of merging these. I would think that replacing the loco hauled trains with new units would be a good idea, but only if the MK3s can be reused by an operator with HSTs. (Cross Country springs to mind!)

SprinterMan said:
Southern, SouthEastern, FCC...
Again this seems sensible. Both of these mergers allow more operational flexibility. This should only occur, however, once the 319s have been replaced, so that stock is more consistent accross all "sectors."

SprinterMan said:
South West Trains...
I might add to this the electrification of SWTs diesel routes, with the exception of Salisbury-Exeter. This means London-Salisbury, Romsey circle and North Downs services can be electric. Perhaps SWT could also receive the Reading-Basingstoke runs and make these electric?

SprinterMan said:
Heathrow Express... Heathrow Connect...
I'm not sure how easily the 460s can be converted for HeX, but if possible, this is a great idea. Perhaps the two Heathrow services could be merged into a single TOC, or even run under FGW?

SprinterMan said:
Cross Country...
The key for this one is longer trains, and the extra voyagers will help this. Perhaps Southampton trains could be half hourly, with Bournemouth trains extended to Weymouth in the summer months? Also, maybe a Reading-Heathrow service would be more useful than a Brighton one?

SprinterMan said:
London Overground...
That pointwork at Watford is going to cause chaos. You'd need to build a flyover to reduce path conflicts with the fast lines. It'd be better for this to transfer to some kind of tram operation as planned. (This could still be run by LOROL)

SprinterMan said:
First Great Western...
You mention using HSTs on some routes. I would be wary of using them on stopping services as they have poorer acceleration than a DMU.

SprinterMan said:
Chiltern & London Midland...
The reopenings are nice but in a way I'd like to see the Chiltern franchise left alone. Chiltern are doing well and it would be a shame to throw a spanner in the works just yet. ;)

SprinterMan said:
Grand Central... Hull Trains
One or the other of these operators should have the 180s. It is silly to split up such a small fleet over many TOCs. One or the other should get a new build of trains and the other focus on 180s. Ideally, a TOC's fleet should be standardised to 2 or 3 classes, or should be fully compatible.

I'm impressed at the overall plan though. A lot of common sense being used! :D
 

Clip

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London Overground
Merge newly-acquired St Albans Abbey branch with Watford DC Line and run new Euston - St Albans Abbey service with Dual-voltage Class 378 via some new pointwork at Watford Junction.

Would this not cause massive pathing issues to cross the Mainline onto the DC lines?
 

Schnellzug

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I understand they are (perhaps were, it has gone quiet afaik)favorites to get the first trial set.

I am open minded. I HOPE it will be a decent train. I doubt it will be but, i am prepapred to judge on delivery.

The 180's are almost as bad, vibration wise, as a voyager.

I'd be quite happy for FGW to get the 180s back, to use on Cardiff-Portsmouth, if you don't want them. :lol:
 

Clip

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Originally Posted by SprinterMan
Heathrow Express... Heathrow Connect...

I'm not sure how easily the 460s can be converted for HeX, but if possible, this is a great idea. Perhaps the two Heathrow services could be merged into a single TOC, or even run under FGW?

Are they not owned and operated exclusively by BAA? And didnt BAA pay an awful lot of money for these services to Heathrow themselves?*


*im not sure of the above but i thought it was them who paid for the line and stations and the trains and the right to run them
 

SprinterMan

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My quote in Sprintermans reply has been altered from 180s to 221s in reference to XC. I originally agreed with DarloRich who said 180s should go to XC rather than GC :)

Sorry about that :P
I assumed it was a typo, as XC taking 180s has been discussed before and ruled out as being difficult, as 180s don't fit through the proof house tunnels, wherever they are (Birmingham, I assume?).

I'm impressed at the overall plan though. A lot of common sense being used! :D

Thank you very much :)
 

driver9000

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Sorry about that :P
I assumed it was a typo, as XC taking 180s has been discussed before and ruled out as being difficult, as 180s don't fit through the proof house tunnels, wherever they are (Birmingham, I assume?).

No problem, I'd forgotten about the Proof House tunnel issue with 180s.

All in I'm generally impressed with what you've come up with :)
 

Peter Mugridge

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Extend platforms on Lymington branch and dedicate a 450 to it..

The platforms are already long enough; 450s are used at weekends and previously 4 car slam door units were used before the final two 3 car CIGs saw out their days there.
 
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