Would there be complete chaos at Euston without barrier staff?

[Gareth Marston]

Following on from a recent thread in disputes and prosecutions and Euston gateline staff not offering the opportunity to buy excess fares to people who try to board trains with invalid tickets, do forum members think as some have posted that passengers should be allowed to board and purchase excess fares from the Conductor on their train?

What would be the practical consequences? Would people just en masse ignore ticket validity restrictions and board trains knowing that especially on the run to the West Midlands on a busy train the Conductor may not even get to them?

 

[Joe Paxton]

I don't see anything inherently unreasonable about the railway checking tickets at a barrier line before passengers gain access to a platform.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don't think it terribly matters which way it is decided - what I think is most important is that it is unified and the same across all of the network. If it is acceptable to board a train with an Off-Peak ticket for which it is invalid at an unbarriered station, and be able to pay just the normal excess, even if an opportunity to purchase said excess existed before boarding the train, then I see no reason why the situation should be different at a barriered station.

It has never made much sense to me that you could, on lines like WCML where the difference between Off-Peak and Anytime can be near to 4× due to there being no Super Off-Peak for most flows, simply buy the cheapest ticket which isn't TOC restricted and then excess away any time or route restrictions onboard the train if you happen to be checked. It seems totally counterintuitive that there is no penalty for doing this onboard the train where an opportunity to purchase existed before travelling, when for many other situations where a similar or even lesser payment would be required to regularise the situation there is a high penalty to buying on board if you could have done so before boarding.

But to come back to your main question, I fundamentally see nothing wrong with either selling people excesses at the gate line or telling them to get them on-board. Obviously the latter would reduce revenue, as those who are currently told they must buy a brand new ticket and who currently just fork out for a new Anytime, would only pay the excess and only if they were checked onboard before getting off. The former option would increase barrier queues, which are plenty long enough for some trains at peak time, quite significantly.

 

[Starmill]

The same thing that happens for people travelling to Euston, from the whole host of stations allover the route where platforms are easily accessed without any revenue check - not much.

 

[Starmill]

It seems totally counterintuitive that there is no penalty for doing this onboard the train where an opportunity to purchase existed before travelling

If the reason you did it were to try to avoid paying the correct fare, there is most definitely a potential penalty!

If you tried it every day, for example, that might suggest your intention to avoid paying the correct fare.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

If the reason you did it were to try to avoid paying the correct fare, there is most definitely a potential penalty!

If you tried it every day, for example, that might suggest your intention to avoid paying the correct fare.

Well of course yes - it's not a replacement for a season ticket but it delivers an unusual level of flexibility by the rail industry's standards. You may, for example, intend to take a train where your Off-Peak ticket is valid, but end up having to take one where it isn't. Rather than paying the higher Anytime fare just in case (of which you would get nothing back if you travelled at Off-Peak times), you buy the Off-Peak and excess it if/when you are checked.

 

[Starmill]

Well of course yes - it's not a replacement for a season ticket but it delivers an unusual level of flexibility by the rail industry's standards. You may, for example, intend to take a train where your Off-Peak ticket is valid, but end up having to take one where it isn't. Rather than paying the higher Anytime fare just in case (of which you would get nothing back if you travelled at Off-Peak times), you buy the Off-Peak and excess it if/when you are checked.

Indeed.

I don't think they like it either, or wish to keep it. The new Penalty Fare Regulations (2018) removed the long-standing provision that customers may not be charged a Penalty Fare for using a correctly dated ticket valid otherwise than for the time restrictions it has.

Of course, NRCoT 9.5 still says:

9.5. Where you are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an ‘off-peak’ or ‘super-off-peak’ Ticket) that is correctly dated but:
9.5.1. invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or
9.5.2. you are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or
9.5.3. you break your journey when you are not permitted to do so, you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

So, charging a Penalty Fare under this circumstances would contravene 9.5.3, as by definition you would be being charged more 'the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using' if you are charged a Penalty Fare.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I don't think it terribly matters which way it is decided - what I think is most important is that it is unified and the same across all of the network. If it is acceptable to board a train with an Off-Peak ticket for which it is invalid at an unbarriered station, and be able to pay just the normal excess, even if an opportunity to purchase said excess existed before boarding the train, then I see no reason why the situation should be different at a barriered station.

It has never made much sense to me that you could, on lines like WCML where the difference between Off-Peak and Anytime can be near to 4× due to there being no Super Off-Peak for most flows, simply buy the cheapest ticket which isn't TOC restricted and then excess away any time or route restrictions onboard the train if you happen to be checked. It seems totally counterintuitive that there is no penalty for doing this onboard the train where an opportunity to purchase existed before travelling, when for many other situations where a similar or even lesser payment would be required to regularise the situation there is a high penalty to buying on board if you could have done so before boarding.

But to come back to your main question, I fundamentally see nothing wrong with either selling people excesses at the gate line or telling them to get them on-board. Obviously the latter would reduce revenue, as those who are currently told they must buy a brand new ticket and who currently just fork out for a new Anytime, would only pay the excess and only if they were checked onboard before getting off. The former option would increase barrier queues, which are plenty long enough for some trains at peak time, quite significantly.

I would suggest that the volume of people on board with invalid tickets would be quite high. Off Peak tickets at peak time, AP tickets for the 1643 on the 1623, London Midland only tickets etc. Some will be genuine cases of needing to excess and happy to do it others will be those who don't understand ticket restrictions who will have a shock but I suspect more will be of the trying it on variety willing to have a gamble that they might get away with it. All of this will of course increase the chances of staff/customer confrontation.

The gateline is actually probably less problematic in that its a straightforward yes or no access policy with plenty of staff. Plus I suspect you would need more onboard staff to deal with ticket validity issues if the gateline wasn't there.

An "Excess Fares only" member of staff with a portable machine shouldn't be a problem though. Really only genuine cases of needing to Excess would bother not the confused as to ticket validity or the trying it on brigade.

Though Virgins Yield Management policy is primarily to blame.