Would appeal even do anything?

[arrrmaa]

Hello,

I bought a return ticket from Smethwick Rolfe Street to Birmingham New Street. I was coming back from work earlier than planned and took the train which was going from Birmingham New Street to Smethwick Rolfe Street with 1 change at Smethwick Galton Bridge. After I got on the train on the Galton Bridge station, prosecution officer asked for my ticket which I happily showed. They then said that the original station Galton Bridge was not on my ticket so I need to pay a fine which is 100£ plus £2.80 for the ticket..... I am very frustrated and wanted to ask if its even worth appealing or should I pay £52 and move on. Plus, I need to know if appeals can even be resolved within 21 days or is that not even a thing. It's ridiculous because the train ticket says anytime return via any routes (attached) but apparently it is not????
Any help would be great.

 

[Bertie the bus]

It doesn't say any route. It says any permitted route and doubling back is usually not permitted. When putting Birmingham New Street - Smethwick Rolfe Street in the National Rail journey planner it shows 2 tickets are required for the route you took. One from Birmingham - Galton Bridge and one from Galton Bridge - Rolfe Street.

There may be some technicality you can appeal on but it looks like you didn't have a valid ticket.

 

[arrrmaa]

It doesn't say any route. It says any permitted route and doubling back is usually not permitted. When putting Birmingham New Street - Smethwick Rolfe Street in the National Rail journey planner it shows 2 tickets are required for the route you took. One from Birmingham - Galton Bridge and one from Galton Bridge - Rolfe Street.

There may be some technicality you can appeal on but it looks like you didn't have a valid ticket.

How long do appeals even take? Because on the fine it says that whether you make appeal or not you still have 21 days to appeal.

 

[John R]

The return fare from Birmingham to Galton Bridge is 4.20, whereas it is only 3.90 to Rolfe Street. And besides that, you were travelling in the wrong direction for a return ticket when doing the leg from Galton Bridge to Rolfe St. So you didn't have a valid ticket I'm afraid.

 

[Mattplans]

How long do appeals even take? Because on the fine it says that whether you make appeal or not you still have 21 days to appeal.

Could you please post a photo of the slip you were given with the fine details

 

[alex17595]

Trainline seems to offer itineraries via Galton Bridge for some reason.

 

[arrrmaa]

ham to Galton Bridge is

Could you please post a photo of the slip you were given with the fine details

 

[z444z]

The penalty fare appears to be compliant so no technical grounds for appeal.

I haven’t checked in detail whether your ticket was or was not valid for the route you took. Once someone confirms for certain that it wasn’t, you should just pay this imo.

 

[saismee]

I couldn't find any relevant easements for this (though I didn't look very hard), but Trainline seems to give the same ticket when searching for Smethwick Rolfe Street to Birmingham New Street via Smethwick Galton Bridge. The validity states:

Travel also permitted to stations near Birmingham New Street.

You can travel from
Smethwick Rolfe Street

You can travel to
Birmingham New Street
Birmingham Moor Street
Birmingham Snow Hill

I can't see how this isn't a double-back, but Trainline happily issues itineraries for it on the same ticket. Is there something missing here?

 

[BazingaTribe]

How long do appeals even take? Because on the fine it says that whether you make appeal or not you still have 21 days to appeal.

No one has mentioned this yet but the appeals process stops the clock on the 21 day period for early payment.

 

[fandroid]

Trainline is definitely offering a change at Galton Bridge as an alternative to direct trains for the same fares. Did you buy your ticket from Trainline?

LATER ADDITION (Supercedes the above):

I've put in a sample journey for next Monday on the West Midland Railway website for Smethwick Rolfe St. to Birmingham New Street, out in the morning and back in the afternoon. The fare for an Anytime Day Return is £3.90 and the site offers doubling back journeys via Galton Street for the return leg as well as direct ones.

Surely there's a black & white case here for dismissing the PFN on appeal?

 

[z444z]

Surely there's a black & white case here for dismissing the PFN on appeal?

It’s worth a go, but I think input from routeing experts might be helpful first

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2026 ==

Smethwick Rolfe Street to Birmingham New Street via Smethwick Galton Bridge?

Posting here as this is where the routeing experts are - in relation to the post linked at the bottom. On what grounds is an Anytime Day Return from Smethwick Rolfe Street to Birmingham New Street valid via Smethwick Galton Bridge? Trainline and NRE will both provide such an itinerary but I...

www.railforums.co.uk

I’ve created this post in the Fares section as there are certainly knowledgeable people in there that don’t tend to check this section!

 

[SuspectUsual]

It’s worth a go, but I think input from routeing experts might be helpful first

If an accredited retailer offers an itinerary taking the route the OP took and at the price the OP paid, then the OP has done nothing wrong

 

[z444z]

If an accredited retailer offers an itinerary taking the route the OP took and at the price the OP paid, then the OP has done nothing wrong

I am aware but think a reference to any routeing principle or easement would strengthen the appeal.

 

[fandroid]

I am aware but think a reference to any routeing principle or easement would strengthen the appeal.

My feeling is that would complicate what is an entirely obvious case. The train company involved with the PFN, and on whose trains the OP travelled, is selling the very same ticket on their own website, for the exact same journey that the OP took.

The appeals body would only get confused if the discussion straight away went down the rabbit hole of routeing principles and NORCOT clauses.
If that's necessary, then there are later appeal stages when that sort of very technical argument can be applied (I just hope that the simple argument that the ticket was demonstrably valid is immediately persuasive).

 

[z444z]

The appeals body would only get confused if the discussion straight away went down the rabbit hole of routeing principles and NORCOT clauses.
If that's necessary, then there are later appeal stages when that sort of very technical argument can be applied (I just hope that the simple argument that the ticket was demonstrably valid is immediately persuasive).

Fair enough. OP are you comfortable getting started drafting an appeal?

 

[yorkie]

What exactly was the itinerary you were issued with, and were you following it?

Trainline incorrectly offers tickets with a double call at the origin or destination; see attached.

If following such an itinerary, the ticket must be accepted by rail staff.

Since 2018, Trainline have used a German system called Hacon Hafas for their journey planning.

Hacon aren't exactly the most knowledgeable on GB railway ticketing matters, and have had to fix many, many huge bugs over the years, if which this is just the latest, but won't be the last.

I expect it will be fixed in due course, now it's been posted here.

 

[AlterEgo]

Important to point out the OP wasn't following the itinerary given to them, and that you can create an error on Trainline for some other date and time doesn't make the route de facto valid. (It would, if the OP's ticket was sold against an itinerary).

 

[Trainbike46]

Important to point out the OP wasn't following the itinerary given to them, and that you can create an error on Trainline for some other date and time doesn't make the route de facto valid. (It would, if the OP's ticket was sold against an itinerary).

While that might be true technically, it seems an odd case to make for the railway that a route suggested by the largest online ticket seller with a specific ticket is not valid for that ticket.

 

[fandroid]

Can I just remind you that not only Trainline, but the actual train operator involved, West Midlands Railway, is selling exactly the same tickets for exactly the same routeing.

We on this forum might know how that has come about but it's completely irrelevant to the OP and their appeal. The train company is publicly selling these tickets on that basis.

 

[saismee]

Can I just remind you that not only Trainline, but the actual train operator involved, West Midlands Railway, is selling exactly the same tickets for exactly the same routeing.

We on this forum might know how that has come about but it's completely irrelevant to the OP and their appeal. The train company is publicly selling these tickets on that basis.

WMT use Trainline for their retailing.

 

[AlterEgo]

While that might be true technically, it seems an odd case to make for the railway that a route suggested by the largest online ticket seller with a specific ticket is not valid for that ticket.

There's no question - it isn't valid.

It is only valid if the ticket was sold with that itinerary as part of the contract.

We've seen people go from Southampton to London via Inverness on error routings before when they purchased tickets against an itinerary which mandated it. That doesn't mean everyone with a Southampton to London ticket can go to Inverness.

 

[z444z]

There's no question - it isn't valid.

It is only valid if the ticket was sold with that itinerary as part of the contract.

This doesn’t mean an appeal isn’t worth a go though.

 

[fandroid]

I still think we're bogging ourselves down in the niceties and fine detail. A simple principle of fairness can apply - the OP has been penalised for using the same ticket and itinerary that West Midlands Trains itself is offering to every member of the public. Not in some weird corner of retail, but in plain sight on their website. They cannot seriously extort £50 or £100 from passengers who just happen to have bought elsewhere and used the inherent flexibility of an Anytime Day Return to change their itinerary for their return journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2026 ==

These are the results from the WMT website for what looks like the same trip next Friday:

 

[z444z]

What exactly was the itinerary you were issued with, and were you following it?

Trainline incorrectly offers tickets with a double call at the origin or destination; see attached

I don’t think we have established exactly what trains the OP used which is probably a failure on our part, but I suspect, and @arrrmaa please confirm or correct me:

1652 Birmingham New Street to Smethwick Galton Bridge 1658, no intermediate stops, on time

1706 Smethwick Galton Bridge to Smethwick Rolfe Street 1708, no intermediate stops, actual times 1710 and 1712

Which would suggest there was no double call and therefore as well as being an itinerary offered by retailers, it’s also valid under the Routeing Guide.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2026 ==

Worth noting the OP hasn’t been back since post #9. Would be a shame if this very incorrect PFN is not appealed, I did try to say to wait until someone confirms the route wasn’t valid but perhaps should have been clearer.

 

[fandroid]

As it's only a 2 minute journey between the two Smethwick stations we can only assume that the RPI got off the train with the OP. Then it was 5 minutes to issue the PFN, which all seems to fit.

 

[z444z]

As it's only a 2 minute journey between the two Smethwick stations we can only assume that the RPI got off the train with the OP. Then it was 5 minutes to issue the PFN, which all seems to fit.

It actually arrived 1712 so only one minute!

 

[yorkie]

I don’t think we have established exactly what trains the OP used which is probably a failure on our part, but I suspect, and @arrrmaa please confirm or correct me:

1652 Birmingham New Street to Smethwick Galton Bridge 1658, no intermediate stops, on time

1706 Smethwick Galton Bridge to Smethwick Rolfe Street 1708, no intermediate stops, actual times 1710 and 1712

Which would suggest there was no double call and therefore as well as being an itinerary offered by retailers, it’s also valid under the Routeing Guide.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Jan 2026 ==

Worth noting the OP hasn’t been back since post #9. Would be a shame if this very incorrect PFN is not appealed, I did try to say to wait until someone confirms the route wasn’t valid but perhaps should have been clearer.

In that case, yes, it's valid providing there is no double-call.

If there was a double-call, it wouldn't be valid unless following the itinerary issued in conjunction with the ticket (but no sensible person actually making the journey would book such an itinerary, or travel on it!)

Either way, I absolutely would not trust WMT revenue protection staff to carry out due diligence and act correctly.

 

[fandroid]

Now we seem to have accepted that the ticket was valid we need to think about the case to put in the appeal. The PFN says "no ticket" which means the OP must:
1. prove that a ticket was held which covered that return journey between New Street and Rolfe Street.
If it was bought online then the confirmation email should prove that.
2. Explain that plans for the return journey changed and that the trains caught were the first ones available.
3. Explain that the journey between New Street and Rolfe Street included the change in the reverse direction at Galton Bridge
4. Declare that the ticket held was shown to the inspector
5. Explain that the ticket covered that reversal of direction because the first train caught didn't stop at Rolfe Street but Galton Bridge is only 2 minutes back and WMT's own journey planner shows that reversal is a legitimate itinerary with the Anytime Day Return ticket held.
6. Possibly explain that the inspector didn't seem to know that the reversal from Galton Bridge was permitted, so incorrectly ignored the ticket held and wrote "no ticket".

 

[z444z]

I’m waiting for the OP to return before putting any more work into this!