Would anyone be interested in interactive fare maps/API?

[ForTheLoveOf]

After my enquiry recently about the availability of fare maps, i.e. graphical representation of the TOCs that set each fare and the prices/restrictions etc. thereof, I have developed upon @Doctor Fegg 's very excellent GitHub project:

I did this a couple of years ago, using the data from https://github.com/dracos/split-ticket, and plotting several different 'queries' from my home station: restrictions, prices, availability, setters, that sort of thing. With a little bit of Ruby/Python hackery, it was easy to create an SVG file for each query. Quite useful to find little islands of reasonable regional TOC-controlled fares in otherwise extortionate CrossCountry-controlled areas, for example....

I can now create fare maps showing price per mile for the highest, lowest or average SOR/SVR etc., fare maps showing colour-coded SVR/CDR restrictions by highest/lowest/average such fare, as well as maps showing the fare setter for the highest and lowest fare, or the combination of all fare setters.

Currently this only works on my own server when I manually enter the CRS code of each station whose data/maps I wish to see, and then compile a file of all the fares for that station. However, I could automate this to make an interactive website where you can enter the CRS code and see a selected map.

Would there be any interest in a project such as the above, or alternately an API whereby other utilities could plug into this? I can share example fare maps if this is not deemed too risky to good-value fares! Obviously if there is no interest then there is little point in me doing this, but if many are interested then I may consider developing this.

Thanks for any comments.

 

[Muzer]

Could you link to Doctor Fegg's project and your developments to it? Thanks!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Could you link to Doctor Fegg's project and your developments to it? Thanks!

Doctor Fegg's project is here. My code isn't public yet as it's still not 100% stable, but I can give you an example fare map for Thurso (as it doesn't give much away!). That map shows each station (other than THS) and the TOCs which set fares to said other stations.

 

[gingerheid]

Looks interesting!

 

[centraltrains]

That's brilliant!

Like how to Coseley it is about £188 but the next stop down is set by XC and jumps to £208!

 

[lyndhurst25]

I think that this would be very useful if made available on a website. Please go for it.

My dream website would be this, with a mileage calculator, searchable fares database (e.g. give me a list of all the tickets to X, priced by TOC Y, with restriction code Z), routeing engine telling you which stations can be visited on a ticket from X to Y (a bit like the old trainscanbecheaper.com used to do), routeing point calculator that doesn't keep asking you to identify multiple store fronts and road signs, split ticket engine, and it would have ticket purchase facilities (without the need for an itinerary) too!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I think that this would be very useful if made available on a website. Please go for it.

My dream website would be this, with a mileage calculator, searchable fares database (e.g. give me a list of all the tickets to X, priced by TOC Y, with restriction code Z), routeing engine telling you which stations can be visited on a ticket from X to Y (a bit like the old trainscanbecheaper.com used to do), routeing point calculator that doesn't keep asking you to identify multiple store fronts and road signs, split ticket engine, and it would have ticket purchase facilities (without the need for an itinerary) too!

Ok, I will try and go for it! I don't think I can implement all of the functionality you are looking for though, a lot of it is very complicated and would require me to set up a company etc. The fares maps are easier.

The obvious risk is that TOC pricing managers discover the tool and close the loopholes it helps them find. I think the only way around this would be to share access manually to moderators/admins/fares advisors etc. or others who I can be sure are not pricing managers, and for them then to manually perform or share any calculations/maps people ask for.

 

[Hadders]

The obvious risk is that TOC pricing managers discover the tool and close the loopholes it helps them find. I think the only way around this would be to share access manually to moderators/admins/fares advisors etc. or others who I can be sure are not pricing managers, and for them then to manually perform or share any calculations/maps people ask for.

I think you need to be very careful about publishing these. Pricing Managers are sure to pick up on them which will lead to anomalies being 'corrected'. I suggest contacting the forum staff for advice first.

 

[najaB]

Ok, I will try and go for it! I don't think I can implement all of the functionality you are looking for though, a lot of it is very complicated and would require me to set up a company etc. The fares maps are easier.

Like many things, the devil will be in the details - time of day, day of the week, phase of the moon all make massive differences to pricing.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Like many things, the devil will be in the details - time of day, day of the week, phase of the moon all make massive differences to pricing.

Absolutely - my fare maps are merely to help with one factor, the TOC which sets the fare. Living in VTWC's sky-high-SOR land myself, it's important to be able to find ways of paying less than this in the unfortunate event I have to travel to/from London at peak times.

 

[Hadders]

Bear in mind that highlighting a place that has fares set by a different company to what you expect will probably see it corrected.

Be careful!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Bear in mind that highlighting a place that has fares set by a different company to what you expect will probably see it corrected.

Be careful!

Well, I will certainly be careful, but all this does it to enable the detection of cheaper fares more easily. It doesn't in and of itself expose cheaper fares. And most of the fares it helps the user to 'detect' relate merely to the fare setter - which cannot be 'fixed' AFAIK. The fares could of course increase, but I've never heard of a fare setter changing in response to an anomaly.

Talking of this - is there any way of buying lots of the same non-season return ticket online easily, without getting one ToD code for each ticket - for those flows where non-season tickets are cheaper than seasons?

 

[najaB]

Talking of this - is there any way of buying lots of the same non-season return ticket online easily, without getting one ToD code for each ticket - for those flows where non-season tickets are cheaper than seasons?

Why online specifically? You could always pop into your closest ticket office and make the clerk's day.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Why online specifically? You could always pop into your closest ticket office and make the clerk's day.

That's a hassle for me though, my local station isn't exactly down the road. Plus they could start to get suspicious at some of my tickets and report them to be fixed...

 

[Merseysider]

Webtis sites such as TPE will issue one TOD code per transaction regardless of the number of tickets

 

[Paul Kelly]

And most of the fares it helps the user to 'detect' relate merely to the fare setter - which cannot be 'fixed' AFAIK.

Of course it can! There are three times per year when flows can change fare setter. And a huge number of anomalies are the result of fares between two stations being set by a different fare setter than would seem logical from another fare setter's point of view, so simply exposing this information in public will be enough to have it "corrected" in many cases.

 

[deltic]

The TOCs will probably make you an offer you cant refuse if it easily flags up anomalies!!!

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Webtis sites such as TPE will issue one TOD code per transaction regardless of the number of tickets

That'd be good. I'll use that then. Thanks.

 

[sheff1]

Well, I will certainly be careful, but all this does it to enable the detection of cheaper fares more easily. It doesn't in and of itself expose cheaper fares. And most of the fares it helps the user to 'detect' relate merely to the fare setter - which cannot be 'fixed' AFAIK The fares could of course increase, but I've never heard of a fare setter changing in response to an anomaly.

Cross Country have taken over a number of flows and then introduced their passenger-unfriendly restrictions on Off Peak tickets and/or routing restrictions. There are still a few about which they seem to have missed. I have no doubt that if they were aware of them things would quickly change ... and not to the benefit of passengers.

It is all very well saying, as some do on here, that cheaper fares resulting from pricing 'anomalies' should be easier to find and not be the preserve of a group of "experts", but if such fares are widely flagged then the almost certain outcome will be that the 'anomalous' fares will disappear and thus be available to no-one. The TOCs, of course, will claim they are rectifying errors.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Of course it can! There are three times per year when flows can change fare setter. And a huge number of anomalies are the result of fares between two stations being set by a different fare setter than would seem logical from another fare setter's point of view, so simply exposing this information in public will be enough to have it "corrected" in many cases.

Can one fare setter simply demand that another relinquish control of the flow? There must be some process of arbitration for this. What was the method through which the flows were allocated to different TOCs at privatisation?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Cross Country have taken over a number of flows and then introduced their passenger-unfriendly restrictions on Off Peak tickets. There are still a few about which they seem to have missed. I have no doubt that if they were aware of them things would quickly change ... and not to the benefit of passengers.

It is all very well saying, as some do on here, that cheaper fares resulting from pricing 'anomalies' should be easier to find and not be the preserve of a group of "experts", but if such fares are widely flagged then the almost certain outcome will be that the 'anomalous' fares will disappear and thus be available to no-one. The TOCs, of course, will claim they are rectifying errors.

Well, the TOCs would be right in that they clearly do not intend for there to be cheaper fares than the 'plain'/'straightforward' ones, but I definitely do realise the impact of making it easy to see who prices what. As said previously, I will probably make this a tool that's available only to select people who I have met in person and have good reason to trust. They could in turn use it to, via PM or otherwise, find cheap fares for those who ask here.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The TOCs will probably make you an offer you cant refuse if it easily flags up anomalies!!!

It's not all that easy, even with my map. It merely makes the process a bit quicker, as it's easily and graphically represented. If they make an offer I will have to consider my allegiances... no, joking there, unless they paid me to become a pricing manager or anomaly-finder full-time I would not let them have this tool.

 

[sheff1]

Well, the TOCs would be right in that they clearly do not intend for there to be cheaper fares than the 'plain'/'straightforward' ones,

I am not sure if you fully appreciate what happened. TOC 'A' who originally priced the fares were obviously happy that they were plain/straightforward ones priced appropriately for the journeys concerned - they tied in with other fares they set for similar journeys elsewhere. Cross Country, whose trains could be used for part of the journeys, felt that the fares were too cheap when compared to their own eye-watering rates and gained control of the flows and, surprise, surprise, jacked the fares up.

What process they had to go through I do not know but, whatever it was, for the passenger it resulted in reasonable fares being replaced by expensive ones.

 

[Hadders]

I am not sure if you fully appreciate what happened. TOC 'A' who originally priced the fares were obviously happy that they were plain/straightforward ones priced appropriately for the journeys concerned - they tied in with other fares they set for similar journeys elsewhere. Cross Country, whose trains could be used for part of the journeys, felt that the fares were too cheap when compared to their own eye-watering rates and gained control of the flows and, surprise, surprise, jacked the fares up.

What process they had to go through I do not know but, whatever it was, for the passenger it resulted in reasonable fares being replaced by expensive ones.

I agree with this. We're talking about the railway and the DfT here. A quick look of your Thurso map shows that Thurso to the Birmingham area are set by Cross Country but there are 7 stations between Coseley and Shifnal where the fare is set Virgin West Coast. I haven't checked if there is a difference in fares but if I was the Pricing Manager for Cross Country I'd want to get control of the pricing for these 7 stations. If I couldn't get control of the fares, and there was an anomaly then I'd on the phone to my counterpart from VWC and suggest that the anomaly was corrected. I probably couldn't ask for it to be done officially but no-one's going to monitor a phone call. Next fares round and hey presto!

As I keep saying - be very careful.

 

[yorkie]

Can one fare setter simply demand that another relinquish control of the flow? There must be some process of arbitration for this.

CrossCountry took over some Chiltern flows into Birmingham and immediately raised fares and inserted evening peak restrictions. No-one was able to stop them.

It's not all that easy, even with my map. It merely makes the process a bit quicker, as it's easily and graphically represented. If they make an offer I will have to consider my allegiances... no, joking there, unless they paid me to become a pricing manager or anomaly-finder full-time I would not let them have this tool.

I don't see how you can stop pricing managers using any tool to their advantage.

Edit: OK you talk about restricting it to certain people who (presumably) you'll have met before you share it with them?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

CrossCountry took over some Chiltern flows into Birmingham and immediately raised fares and inserted evening peak restrictions. No-one was able to stop them.


I don't see how you can stop pricing managers using any tool to their advantage.

Edit: OK you talk about restricting it to certain people who (presumably) you'll have met before you share it with them?

Yes, I intend only to share access with those who I am sure are neither pricing managers themselves nor are able to directly set or change any pricing/restrictions. Such as yourself, Yorkie!

 

[RobLawrence]

Yes, I intend only to share access with those who I am sure are neither pricing managers themselves nor are able to directly set or change any pricing/restrictions. Such as yourself, Yorkie!

Still feels like the exposing the data in such a user-friendly way could be exploited. Someone could easily share their log in. Perhaps I am being paranoid!