Would a 7-day a week timetable be desirable/achievable?

[S&CLER]

The reports that weekend travel has picked up significantly more than travel during the working week prompt me to ask what the current feeling in the Forum on 7-day a week timetables is. Will passenger loadings more evenly spread across the week make this more desirable or achievable? It was stated as an aspiration rather than a commitment before the pandemic, but not much progress seems to have been made. Of the TOCs, Merseyrail probably came closest before the Covid cuts, with its regular 15-min frequency on almost all lines, and crucially, Sunday services at half-hourly frequency but with a later start and departure times largely the same. Of course they have the advantage of a simple self-contained system. The example of Merseyrail also illustrates the benefit of 15/30/60 minute frequencies compared with a 20 minute interval, which is OK during normal hours, but awkwardly unmemorable if it is halved to 40 minutes on Sundays (as the Ormskirk line was cut from 3o to 40 mins frequency on Sundays in the 1960s).
What proportion of train crew are now working on contracts with Sunday inside the working week?

Should we aim for a base service on Saturday, with weekday peaks catered for by longer trains rather than peak extras, where possible, and Sunday trains running largely on the same pattern as Saturday but at a reduced frequency in the morning?

One minor incidental benefit would be the possibility of printing 7-day a week timetables, using headnotes, colour or shading to distinguish those trains which did not run 7 days a week.

Mods, please move this to Speculative Ideas if you think it fits better there.

 

[greyman42]

The ECML needs extra trains on a Sunday afternoon to cope with passenger demand.

 

[iphone76]

I'd say that Crossrail / Elizabeth line (certainly on the East) offers and pretty standard 7 day a week service with trains every 7/8 minutes for most of the day (Uplifted to every 5 minutes during high peak Monday to Friday). Sundays are currently inside the working week, although limited to 21 per year.

 

[Falcon1200]

Should we aim for a base service on Saturday, with weekday peaks catered for by longer trains rather than peak extras, where possible, and Sunday trains running largely on the same pattern as Saturday but at a reduced frequency in the morning?

For suburban services at least. I would absolutely agree, and that in fact is how my local line operated for a while; Mon-Fri, half-hourly service, varied in the peaks with altered times and extra trains; Sat, half-hourly all day with the same departure times as Mon-Fri off-peak; Sun, half-hourly all day with the same departure times as Mon-Fri off-peak, with a later start in the morning. Sadly the TT was changed a few years ago and the Sunday service, while still half-hourly, is now at completely different times !

A couple of notes; Post-Covid, evening services are down to hourly, a very poor move for leisure travel, and I wonder whether the Mon-Fri peaks could now also be the base half-hourly frequency with strengthening as required.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Any second now Bletchleyite will kick on about his preferred "Takht" - plus the scandal of parked up stock at Camden CS .....

 

[Horizon22]

Yes Sunday does need a more regular service as demand is much higher post-Covid than it once was. Don't forget that at many places the weekend has peaks - I often see it around 1030-1200 and then again from 1700-1900. At the very least Sunday start-up needs to be MUCH earlier; it can be ridiculously late at some places (although sometimes this is due to long Saturday night engineering blocks). Saturday whilst not as bad could do with stock strengthening where available at core times too.

There is of course the issue of engineering works and how this can be balanced - many times a reduction in service is a necessity due to reduced line availability/capacity and diversions etc. In many places as well to increase the service you would have to significantly increase the number of drivers (and in some parts signaller start times) available for Sunday work which would require big rostering changes and/or contractual changes (several TOCs do not have Sunday in the working week). In my eyes its well overdue but would be a significant change and cost and might have resistance so is not an overnight job.

Some have suggested that engineering works could be moved to weekdays and I just can't see that happening - there's a more even demand throughout the day and even if its lower, there are still people commuting to work and making necessarily journeys.

So yes it may well be "desirable" but achievable I think is a can of worms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Any second now Bletchleyite will kick on about his preferred "Takht" - plus the scandal of parked up stock at Camden CS .....

You know Avanti near enough do operate a 7 day service on the WCML, right?

 

[dk1]

You know Avanti near enough do operate a 7 day service on the WCML, right?

Doesn’t that usually happen after midday though?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Doesn’t that usually happen after midday though?

It has a later start, yes.

 

[mangyiscute]

Sunday needs to have earlier services - in Reading the first fast train to London is not till 09:38 and then there is another hour gap after that - previously a semi-fast train at 08:20 had run and always was quite busy when I took it. Also, another example is the first Oxford to Reading train not being until 10:16 - that is crazily late. I think for the most part Sunday services don't necessarily need to change for the afternoon and evening but we need earlier trains in the morning.

Also, my other complaint would be Saturday evening trains - take London to Reading as an example again - Monday to Friday and Sunday there is an almost 24-hour service as there is a train at half 1, half 3 and then 5am all in the morning. On a Saturday evening - a popular evening to go out - the last Reading train is at 23:45 and the next train is not until 07:17 on Sunday morning. I have once been stranded in London due to tube delays on the circle and h&c meaning i missed that last train at Paddington - fortunately I have family in London but others may not be as lucky.

 

[dk1]

It has a later start, yes.

Yes Sunday mornings will always be a problem for shift change over & engineering.

 

[Bald Rick]

On a national basis, Weekend traffic is close to, but not yet at, pre covid levels.

Personally I think it is more likely we get closer to a standard timetable over the 7 days by reducing M-F services rather than increasing weekends.

Worth mentioning (again) that travel demand on Sunday mornings is much, much lower than any other ‘day’ time of the week (same on the roads and in the air), and that is the time to do routine maintenance on the busiest routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I think it is more likely we get closer to a standard timetable over the 7 days by reducing M-F services rather than increasing weekends.

I think "a bit of both" there. I would see an all-week Saturday timetable (perhaps give or take the first 2-3 hours of service) as the conclusion of reduced commuting and much more spread-out demand. An all-week Sunday timetable would be bad, very bad.

Worth mentioning (again) that travel demand on Sunday mornings is much, much lower than any other ‘day’ time of the week (same on the roads and in the air), and that is the time to do routine maintenance on the busiest routes.

Yes, true.

FWIW it's not as late now as it was. The first Preston-Carlisle on a Sunday is the 1058, which I agree is a bit late (there is an 0948 to Windermere if you want a day out in the Lakes, which is maybe a bit more sensible). In the 1990s it was about 1530. Because most tickets were routed Lancaster, I recall a lot of controversy on the DalesRail services back then because those tickets were not valid and people had to pay again.

Regarding Saturday evening/Sunday early hours, I suspect the railway just doesn't want that traffic. If you had 2am-ish departures from London terminals on Saturdays, that just means your passengers would be 2-3 pints more drunk, not great. With London it's also worth considering that it isn't really a 24-hour city in the way some places are - you mostly have pubs that shut at 11 or thereabouts, and clubs that go through the night (which has probably developed to some extent because of the nature of the public transport service, because London is a comparatively anti-car city). The demand at about 2-3am wouldn't be *that* huge compared with when clubs legally had to kick out at 2. More likely people going "serious clubbing" will stay out all night and have a greasy breakfast before taking the first train back.

 

[Horizon22]

Sunday needs to have earlier services - in Reading the first fast train to London is not till 09:38 and then there is another hour gap after that - previously a semi-fast train at 08:20 had run and always was quite busy when I took it. Also, another example is the first Oxford to Reading train not being until 10:16 - that is crazily late. I think for the most part Sunday services don't necessarily need to change for the afternoon and evening but we need earlier trains in the morning.

Much of the late start on a Sunday (especially near Didcot/Oxford) is due to extended engineering blocks on a Saturday night into Sunday morning across the route. Currently it’s the best time to do it and whilst I also think start-up needs to be much earlier as this isn’t the 1970s (although the railway often like to think Sunday is!), I do appreciate the near to get an extended block in somewhere.

If you have a 4-track railway it might be more possible to run earlier trains on Sundays and alternate the weeks but that isn’t always feasible or practical.

 

[alxndr]

It's already getting harder and harder to for maintenance in, if the Saturday night gap was reduced by finishing later or starting earlier on a Sunday, when would the maintenance be done? You could finish very early on a Sunday, but that isn't very suitable either for those members of the public who want to make the most of their weekends away.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's already getting harder and harder to for maintenance in, if the Saturday night gap was reduced by finishing later or starting earlier on a Sunday, when would the maintenance be done? You could finish very early on a Sunday, but that isn't very suitable either for those members of the public who want to make the most of their weekends away.

With reduced commuting it's quite possible that midweek daytime is the time to get maintenance in. Which would I imagine also be popular with maintenance staff!

If weekends become the new peaks (which they sort of already are), then a periodic Tuesday-Thursday blockade (planned well in advance) to get a lot of stuff done could well be a good choice. And an early finish with bustitution on say a Wednesday might well be less unpopular than a Saturday.

 

[Horizon22]

With reduced commuting it's quite possible that midweek daytime is the time to get maintenance in. Which would I imagine also be popular with maintenance staff!

If weekends become the new peaks (which they sort of already are), then a periodic Tuesday-Thursday blockade (planned well in advance) to get a lot of stuff done could well be a good choice.

I’ve thought quite a lot about this and I just don’t think it’s feasible and it’s a real conundrum.

So yes you could do it between say (1100-1500) but that’s 4 hours of no trains in the middle of the day and you’ve got shift workers, school travel and just general leisure travel to deal with and I simply don’t think it will be at all palatable to have cancellations for that long a time.

Maybe you could run a reduced 2-track timetable in places, but again that would be hugely controversial and I think people would vote for the late Sundays instead.

As I said I really don’t think there’s any easy answer - there’s 168 hours in the week and they have to be filled most efficiently. I do wonder how Europe copes with this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do wonder how Europe copes with this.

France does exactly what I suggested - midweek daytime gaps in service with permanently timetabled bustitution.

I'm not sure I would go for that, though, it might be better to have planned (well in advance) blockades than do it every day.

 

[The Planner]

It's already getting harder and harder to for maintenance in, if the Saturday night gap was reduced by finishing later or starting earlier on a Sunday, when would the maintenance be done? You could finish very early on a Sunday, but that isn't very suitable either for those members of the public who want to make the most of their weekends away.

With reduced commuting it's quite possible that midweek daytime is the time to get maintenance in. Which would I imagine also be popular with maintenance staff!

If weekends become the new peaks (which they sort of already are), then a periodic Tuesday-Thursday blockade (planned well in advance) to get a lot of stuff done could well be a good choice. And an early finish with bustitution on say a Wednesday might well be less unpopular than a Saturday.

It wouldn't work as it isn't just the middle of the day block you have to consider, its the shoulder either side. There is work looking at reducing Saturday night/Sunday morning but it involves adding it on to mid week nights and even then it would require longer than the hours lost due to efficiency, so you will likely end up losing later trains doing that. Blockades only really work if they are 4-5 days long or longer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Blockades only really work if they are 4-5 days long or longer.

Would a three day plus two night blockade (i.e. Monday 2359-Friday 0500 or thereabouts) not be useful? Surprises me.

 

[The Planner]

Would a three day plus two night blockade (i.e. Monday 2359-Friday 0500 or thereabouts) not be useful? Surprises me.

Most TOCs would say to take the whole week than do that as its easier to deal with, it equates to a bank holiday length which means bigger track and bridge jobs can be done.

 

[Bald Rick]

With reduced commuting it's quite possible that midweek daytime is the time to get maintenance in. Which would I imagine also be popular with maintenance staff!

quite a lot of inspection and ‘minor’ maintenance is already done mid week days - on quieter routes where you can get a line block of 40 mins between trains.
but on busier routes - which need more and heavier maintenance - that’s just not an option.

 

[30907]

France does exactly what I suggested - midweek daytime gaps in service with permanently timetabled bustitution.

More typically, the "blanc horaire" is 90min to allow safely for routine inspections and minor maintenance.
Admittedly, on some lines SNCF seems to default to running buses with trains only when absolutely necessary to cope with demand!

 

[Watershed]

The issue of Saturday evening/Sunday morning is somewhat intractable - no matter what solution you go for, it's going to involve inconveniencing someone.

Continental Europe has it a lot easier, partly because some of the lines have much lower frequencies - you'd never have an hourly services on quiet little branches and secondary routes like you have here.

Partly also because bidirectional signalling is much more common there. Whereas here there are barely any lines with such a facility - there's the GWML between Didcot-Bath/Chipping Sodbury and along Dawlish, the ECML between Northallerton-Berwick and Grantshouse-Innerwick, and the WCML between Sandbach-Cheadle Hulme and on the Fast Lines from Rugby-Lichfield. That's about it.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

The issue of Saturday evening/Sunday morning is somewhat intractable - no matter what solution you go for, it's going to involve inconveniencing someone.

Continental Europe has it a lot easier, partly because some of the lines have much lower frequencies - you'd never have an hourly services on quiet little branches and secondary routes like you have here.

Partly also because bidirectional signalling is much more common there. Whereas here there are barely any lines with such a facility - there's the GWML between Didcot-Bath/Chipping Sodbury and along Dawlish, the ECML between Northallerton-Berwick and Grantshouse-Innerwick, and the WCML between Sandbach-Cheadle Hulme and on the Fast Lines from Rugby-Lichfield. That's about it.

The BML has it between Balcombe Tunnel Junction and Haywards Heath too, but its a capability that isn't really used currently as the SRT's for it are completely incorrect.

Isn't the GEML also bi-di signalled at some sections as well?

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't the GEML also bi-di signalled at some sections as well?

yes, Shenfield to Colchester and Shenfield to Southend.

 

[wobman]

I know tfw are planning to run a full 7 day a week timetable in the future, they need more staff to cover this plan.
But I can't see there being enough demand for trains on a Sunday at 6am or earlier, people want more services from 9am onwards that are longer units.

I find working Sundays quite regularly that the demand is increasing but like many posters say engineering works are mostly at weekends, this will need resolving by network rail.

 

[Falcon1200]

The main line through Oxford also has some bi-di signalling, and in Scotland a small part of the ECML between Innerwick and Grantshouse (which when passenger frequencies were lower than now we used to allow one freight to overtake another !). Also in Scotland, Elderslie-Kilwinning has been bi-di since resignalling in 1986, more recently this was extended through to Shields Jc, including over all three lines from Paisley.

 

[The Planner]

Partly also because bidirectional signalling is much more common there. Whereas here there are barely any lines with such a facility - there's the GWML between Didcot-Bath/Chipping Sodbury and along Dawlish, the ECML between Northallerton-Berwick and Grantshouse-Innerwick, and the WCML between Sandbach-Cheadle Hulme and on the Fast Lines from Rugby-Lichfield. That's about it.

We don't like using SLW for engineering now, more as a get out of jail for incidents. The Trent Valley bi di is to allow a two track.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

We don't like using SLW for engineering now, more as a get out of jail for incidents. The Trent Valley bi di is to allow a two track.

On Sussex we still do regularly. We recently had two weekends where we had SLW all day between Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges, and SLW regularly takes place on Sunday mornings between East Croydon and Earlswood, South Croydon and Redhill, Redhilll and Gatwick Airport, Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges and Brighton and Lewes