Would "2 trains on the same platform" work in the UK?

[signed]

Over here in France, due to massive bottleneck at some stations, SNCF has started a trial of 2TMV (2 trains sur la même voie) at select stations, apart for the confusion insuing from passengers not realizing it's the wrong train, it seems to work fine.

The goal of that is to put 2 trains, going opposite way to each other, on the same platform, to allow more paths to be used at those stations.

Would that help some of the pathing issues encountered in the UK? Where could that be more useful?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Two trains on the same platform already happens, to a certain extent, as a number of busy(ish) GB stations, albeit these are usually on terminating platforms rather than through platforms. A key consideration, of course, is ensuring that passengers only board the correct train.

You wouldn't want a passenger boarding at Edinburgh Waverley ending up on a TPE train to Manchester Airport, rather than a Scotrail service for Glasgow Queen Street!

 

[signed]

A key consideration, of course, is ensuring that passengers only board the correct train.

This seem to be a bit of a blocker, but it doesn't seem to be as chaosy at Rennes.

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https://www.groupe-sncf.com/fr/groupe/portrait-entreprise/groupe-societes/sncf-reseau/2-trains-1-voie-rennes

SNCF boasts :

200
nouveaux itinéraires dans le poste d’aiguillage de Rennes

200 new paths in the Rennes signal box

I don't know what those 200 paths are per (week? month?...).

and they wish to run 120 additional TER per week, which is commendable.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2024 ==

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In French signalling rules, It does however need some added signalling for that to be possible, would that be the case in the UK?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is normal practice at a number of stations that have long platforms, e.g. Birmingham New St. The UK approach to it is generally to have an "A end" and "B end" of the platform which are announced as different platforms.

It also happens when splitting and joining, though that's slightly different.

 

[Western Lord]

Before the new platforms were built both northbound and southbound through trains used the single through platform at Cambridge, which had a scissors crossover halfway along. Very convenient for passengers with everybody having level access. The new arrangement is better for the railway operators but passengers heading south or arriving from the north have to lug everything over a footbridge or faff about with two lifts.

 

[AM9]

Before the new platforms were built both northbound and southbound through trains used the single through platform at Cambridge, which had a scissors crossover halfway along. Very convenient for passengers with everybody having level access. The new arrangement is better for the railway operators but passengers heading south or arriving from the north have to lug everything over a footbridge or faff about with two lifts.

It also works every day at Penryn on the Falmouth branch line.

 

[greataj]

It happens a fair bit for sure but as mentioned mostly on terminating services. Regarding confusion, aren't some platforms numbering set-up for this ie Platform 3a, 3b.

Also considering services with 2 units coupled may have certain carriages not open at some stations due to platform length. For example Greater Anglia regularly couple 2x 5 coach class 720s on Liverpool St-Cambridge North stopping services. There are notices on the proceeding stations if travelling to Roydon, Elsenham, sit in the 5 front coaches, if travelling to Great Chesterford, sit in the rear 5 coaches. It's effectively the same as 2 separate trains, except if you realise at least en-route you're in the wrong section you can jump out and run down to the correct section at an intermediate station.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Happens fairly often at Shrewsbury, with the Holyhead, Birmingham and Aberystwyth services - 3 services using 2 platforms.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Over here in France, due to massive bottleneck at some stations, SNCF has started a trial of 2TMV (2 trains sur la même voie) at select stations, apart for the confusion insuing from passengers not realizing it's the wrong train, it seems to work fine.

The goal of that is to put 2 trains, going opposite way to each other, on the same platform, to allow more paths to be used at those stations.

Would that help some of the pathing issues encountered in the UK? Where could that be more useful?

Cambridge platforms 1 and 4 say hi! One platform face, split into two platforms by a scissors crossover.

To be fair that platform face has been (effectively or officially?) two platforms since the scissors crossover was installed in 1885, a piece of trackwork that until 1926 had its own signal box (source). The crossover remains in constant use, dividing the 470m platform into two busy bidirectional 12-car platforms.

 

[Magdalia]

The goal of that is to put 2 trains, going opposite way to each other, on the same platform, to allow more paths to be used at those stations.

This isn't anything new.

It was done at Royston between 1978 and 1988 with electric trains from/to Kings Cross and diesel trains from/to Cambridge.

 

[Topological]

I have seen 3 in platform 1 at Cardiff Central. That said they only really wanted people to get on the front one. Those boarding the back 2 were taking advantage of the doors being temporarily unlocked.

It did make me wonder whether they should consider using the "a" and "b" that already appear on the signs.

Birmingham New Street has a "middle" too?

 

[172007]

Does the French system allow trains to approach from opposite ends at the same which AFAIK doesn't happen here.

Snowhill under plans for Platform 4 and the wider Midlands Hub project was meant to have split platforms with middle signals bit that has gone by the wayside I believe.

 

[signed]

Does the French system allow trains to approach from opposite ends at the same which AFAIK doesn't happen here.

It doesn't, one train must be stopped for the other to approach

But they do need to enter from opposite ends from what I can gather.

 

[nr758123]

I was at Dovey Junction last week, where the Aberystwyth-bound train I was on passed the Shrewsbury-bound train and then stopped at the seaward end of the same platform. I hadn't been on the Aberystwyth branch since the 1990s and I wasn't aware that there was a passing loop at Dovey Junction.

 

[edwin_m]

Over here in France, due to massive bottleneck at some stations, SNCF has started a trial of 2TMV (2 trains sur la même voie) at select stations, apart for the confusion insuing from passengers not realizing it's the wrong train, it seems to work fine.

The goal of that is to put 2 trains, going opposite way to each other, on the same platform, to allow more paths to be used at those stations.

Would that help some of the pathing issues encountered in the UK? Where could that be more useful?

Not sure how this is meant to work for trains in opposite directions. Unless at least one of them is reversing, some kind of bypass track will be needed to avoid a Mexican stand-off.

As already mentioned there are plenty of stations in the UK where this happens, either with mid-platform signals to separate the trains or just with call-on signals to authorise entry to an occupied platform, and sometimes someone on the platform indicating to the driver where to stop.

As also mentioned, typically letters are used to define the different parts of the platform and there are usually separate display screens for each portion so passengers should know which is which - always provided the train stops in the correct place. This may be more complicated in France because if I recall correctly they already use letters to indicate the quai, the physical platform which may have tracks either side, and numbers for the actual track (voie).

 

[signed]

Not sure how this is meant to work for trains in opposite directions

It's for through stations only.

may be more complicated in France because if I recall correctly they already use letters to indicate the quai, the physical platform which may have tracks either side, and numbers for the actual track (voie).

It does work that way in most stations (though the big ones may have lettered platform names)

 

[The exile]

Sounds as if it’s exactly what used to happen at Bristol TM. There are now full signals half way down the platforms but IIRC it used to just be a large “X”. Only much use if both trains are terminating / reversing or both carrying on in the same direction.

 

[edwin_m]

It's for through stations only.

I understand that. What I don't understand is how two trains in opposite directions can pass each other if both are trying to use the same track at the same time. Or is this just saying they will use the same platform at a through station in opposite directions at different times? In which case that is also pretty routine for major stations in the UK.

 

[The exile]

Having just read the French, it looks as if it’s exactly like Bristol Tm (or New Street) - ie mid-platform signals - so not only would it work, but we’ve being doing it for years.

 

[signed]

Or is this just saying they will use the same platform at a through station in opposite directions at different times?

Exactly, one will pull up from the west to reverse and go to the west side of the station and the other will pull in from the east side to reverse and go east.

Having just read the French, it looks as if it’s exactly like Bristol Tm (or New Street) - ie mid-platform signals - so not only would it work, but we’ve being doing it for years.

Very interesting how different workings are here

 

[The Planner]

I was at Dovey Junction last week, where the Aberystwyth-bound train I was on passed the Shrewsbury-bound train and then stopped at the seaward end of the same platform. I hadn't been on the Aberystwyth branch since the 1990s and I wasn't aware that there was a passing loop at Dovey Junction.

Same arrangement as Penrhyn in Cornwall pretty much. Was put in around 13 years ago.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Manchester Victoria used to do something a bit like this with the A/B ends, but almost every train on platforms 3-6 are through trains now.
And it was quite a long time ago now, I don't remember any particular details, just that a/b was used.

 

[Tramfan]

Happens at Sunderland regularly too, where a northern and a tyne and wear metro will share the same platform.*

*Albeit the platforms are separately numbered, rather than being designated A and B ends, it's the same practice

 

[swt_passenger]

Southampton Central island platforms 2 and 3 has seen trains operating into and out again in both directions all day for many years. It’s all done without mid platform signals as well, just a very large number of “X car stop” marker plates.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly have signals in the middle of the platform, but all trains only stop at the far ends of each.
Only when 390s used to stop there during engineering works/diversions would the entire platform be used.

 

[HSTEd]

Was it Victoria that had scissor pointwork that allowed trains stacked in the terminating platforms to leave in any order?

I seem to recall something like that but I can't remembre where now.

 

[Vexed]

Platform 13/14 at Piccadilly have signals in the middle of the platform, but all trains only stop at the far ends of each.
Only when 390s used to stop there during engineering works/diversions would the entire platform be used.

Those are closing up signals which reduce platform re-occupation time and therefore headways. Nothing to do with platform sharing even though they look the same as any other signal.

 

[30907]

Was it Victoria that had scissor pointwork that allowed trains stacked in the terminating platforms to leave in any order?

Yes, on the Brighton side, with a middle road to allow it. Only good for 8 cars though, so a mixed blessing.
Leeds has something similar with (through) platforms.

 

[jawr256]

I've also seen two trains share a platform before departing in opposite directions at Preston, Nottingham and Huddersfield.

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, on the Brighton side, with a middle road to allow it. Only good for 8 cars though, so a mixed blessing.
Leeds has something similar with (through) platforms.

I must say it does raise interesting questions about the design of hypothetical future/rebuilt stations.
The width required for a through line is much less than that required for a fully equipped platform face, but only works if trains serving the station are much shorter than the platforms.

I also suppose how useful it is depends how short overlaps can be made with things like ETCS.