Worst Improvement?

[Failed Unit]

Because half the 221 fleet was sent to West Coast?

How many 221's are needed for the daigrams on the North Wales - Euston route? The Scotland - Birmingham route was XC so it should not really make any difference to the utilisation of the fleet. Manchester - Scotland has also freed up some 22x's

Putting Ticket barriers in Nottingham. Dosent make sense, as to get from the car park to the ticket office, you have to go through the barriers. Well thought out EMT :roll:

Wasn't they in the pipeline before EMT took over? I agree however perhaps the TOC's should have invested in giving passengers the ability to buy tickets on before they get to thier destination rather than treating them all like fare dodgers. Just because staff can't get through the train to sell all the passengers tickets at Newark Castle doesn't make them all fare dodgers, perhaps if CT hadn't shut down the ticket office (or provided a TVM to replace it) more people would buy before they board. Same story with Market Rasen! /rant

 

[krus_aragon]

How many 221's are needed for the daigrams on the North Wales - Euston route? The Scotland - Birmingham route was XC so it should not really make any difference to the utilisation of the fleet. Manchester - Scotland has also freed up some 22x's

There's only seven trains a day going to North Wales (including Wrexham) but now that Chester has an hourly service by means of Voyager, I expect that there aren't many sitting spare.

 

[yorksrob]

the 60's and 70's were a bleak time for architecture as a whole and for railway architecture in particular. You can basically say that any building work undertaken by BR during this period was a backward step as lovely stations were swept away for functional replacements (if any were built at all many stations were left with nothing). I cant think of one station redone during this period which has stood the test of time. It is just a relief that BR had no cash to re do all the network so we still have hundreds of lovely stations left (we just need to learn how to look after them now!)

I predict that within a decade there wont be a major station left which had a rebuild in the 60's and that Brutalist architecture will be gone from our network for good and franklly good riddance.

I suppose they didn't have much choice at my home town station (Ashford Kent) as the fine victorian buildings were where the new platform loops needed to be. The new 1960's booking hall built over the tracks was pretty well designed though and used to rumble impressively when fast trains passed underneath. They also kept some nice Edwardian platform canopies. I get quite nostalgic as it was all sweped away for the Eurostar.

 

[tbtc]

How many 221's are needed for the daigrams on the North Wales - Euston route? The Scotland - Birmingham route was XC so it should not really make any difference to the utilisation of the fleet. Manchester - Scotland has also freed up some 22x's

In Virgin days, it was bi-hourly Birmingham - Wigan - Scotland and bi-hourly Birmingham - Manchester - Scotland (with more services running Birmingham - Manchester, obviously)

Now it's hourly Birmingham - Wigan - Scotland (with Arriva running half hourly Birmingham - Manchester and TPE running Manchester - Scotland), so I'd reckon that more Voyagers are needed for the West Coast services than before (plus the hourly Chester service etc)

 

[Damien1986]

The people of Carlisle,Penrith,Oxenholme,Lancaster,Preston,Wigan and Warrington losing direct trains to the South East and South West of England is not an improvement!

 

[Aictos]

It's also to be remembered that Beeching apparently commissioned the MGR system which still to this day is one of the backbones of the rail freight industry.

One thing to note though even though the commissioning of the MGR system may be attributed to Beeching, it was actually G F Fiennes who came up with the idea of the MGR, not forgetting also was partially responsible for the introduction of the Deltics.

The books he wrote are quite informative and interesting to read.

As to extra 91s not being ordered, that was simply down to the funding not being available otherwise BR would have introduced the InterCity 250 to operate on the West Coast Main Line however because of the limited funding,
the procurement of the Class 365, Class 465 and Class 466 EMU Networker stock was taken forward instead of these.

What would have been nice would be if BR had the funding available which would have meant both West and East Coast Main Lines would have 91s since the Class 93 got cancelled.

Onto Electrification, it's a shame that as the wires were going up they didn't wire up as much as they could have done ie:

Unknown
Sheffield to Liverpool Lime Street
Peterborough to Birmingham via Leicester
Sheffield to Bristol via Birmingham

MML

Bedford to Doncaster via Sheffield and Derby
Sheffield to Wakefield Westgate
Kettering to Loughborough via Corby
Sheffield to Grantham via Langley Mill and Nottingham

ECML

Ely to Norwich
Ely to Peterborough
Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln
Cambridge to Stowmarket via Bury St Edmunds
Ely to Kennet
Leeds to York via the 3 routes of Harrogate, Garforth and Church Fenton

GEML

Norwich to Great Yarmouth via Acle and Reedham
Lowestoft to Norwich and Ipswich

WCML

Preston to Blackpool
Lancaster to Carlisle via Barrow -in- Furness
Lancaster to Windermere
Leeds to Preston via Bradford Interchange

I agree with TBTC's valid point of small fleets though as well, this is something that shouldn't have happened.

If the above routes got electrified then just maybe FTPE would have gone with a smaller order of 185s to operate the remaining diesel routes and gone with AC versions of 444s for the other electrified routes.

 

[LE Greys]

The seating on any coach or MU vehicle since the MkIs. MkII early seats were OK, IC-70s were reasonable, but it's all gone downhill from there. Whatever they used on the MkIVs originally were small and uncomfortable, and the new ones aren't much better. Chapman, Grammar and the rest are all far too hard, but the worst are the ones on the 450s, which might as well be planks. Since those were direct replacements for MkIs, then it's a terrible contrast. I want to sink down into a soft, springy armchair when travelling (MkI compartment with armrests) not perch on a tiny plank. So, worst "improvement", passenger comfort of new stock, especially Desiros.

 

[4SRKT]

Reducing the number of roads leading from Holgate Junction into York station from 6 to 3, effectively making the York > Leeds line single track for the first few hundred yards.

Of course the absolute worst 'improvement', not just in railways but in the whole miserable toll of human history, has to be the truly odious PENDOLINO

 

[Geezertronic]

Of course the absolute worst 'improvement', not just in railways but in the whole miserable toll of human history, has to be the truly odious PENDOLINO

And as a regular user of the 390s, I disagree with you 100%. Along with the VHF service and the WCML improvements, they have considerably helped to improve the WCML service.

That's why they are always full in the peaks, because everyone hates them that much

 

[Aictos]

Reducing the number of roads leading from Holgate Junction into York station from 6 to 3, effectively making the York > Leeds line single track for the first few hundred yards.
:

Fletton to Huntingdon heading to London is pretty much a single line except for the remaining Up Slow at Connington, capacity would be so much better if Holme to Huntingdon was 4 tracked again along with the Peterborough end of the Stilton Fen bit to Peterborough.

 

[4SRKT]

And as a regular user of the 390s, I disagree with you 100%. Along with the VHF service and the WCML improvements, they have considerably helped to improve the WCML service.

That's why they are always full in the peaks, because everyone hates them that much

I can't see how this shows whether people hate them or not. There's nothing else on offer, so what would anyone do otherwise?

If a passenger was blind, or found looking out of the window disagreeable, or was a midget so could fit in the seats, or got a kick out of claustrophobia, or actively liked looking at a wall of white plastic (possibly it reminds him of the interior of his padded cell), then maybe, just maybe that passenger might see a Pendolino as an improvement to a mk III. Meanwhile, back in the real world.....

Fletton to Huntingdon heading to London is pretty much a single line except for the remaining Up Slow at Connington, capacity would be so much better if Holme to Huntingdon was 4 tracked again along with the Peterborough end of the Stilton Fen bit to Peterborough.

I meant York > Holgate junction from the west side of the station is an actual single line. As in trains running in both directions have to use it.

 

[sprinterguy]

I can't see how this shows whether people hate them or not. There's nothing else, so what would anyone do otherwise.

If a passenger was blind, or found looking out of the window disagreeable, or was a midget so could fit in the seats, or actively liked looking at a wall of white plastic, then maybe, just maybe that passenger might see a Pendolino as an improvement to a mk III. Meanwhile, back in the real world...

In terms of journey time, reliability and uniformity of the service the Pendolinos are an improvement over the old loco hauled operation, and that's what counts to the majoirty of passengers. Despite a considerably more frequent service to Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow offering many more seats per hour under the VHF timetable than there was a decade ago, many trains are full and standing, which goes some way to showing there has definitely been an increase in demand for the service.

Personally mind, I really do miss class 87s and mark 3s, but, viewing things objectively, the Pendolinos have done a lot for the West Coast.

 

[generalvegitable]

I rather like the pendolino, I think that they are a slight improvement on what came before (The good points are almost balanced out by the bad points), they look and feel sleek and modern, the only thing I don't like about them is the small windows, I didn't really notice the cramped seating when I last used one and I'm about 6'3 tall.

... or got a kick out of claustrophobia

claustrophillia?

 

[Geezertronic]

I can't see how this shows whether people hate them or not. There's nothing else on offer, so what would anyone do otherwise?

Well that's an exaggeration. There are always other options in and out of London such as London Midland, ECML/MML services, and plane for Scottish services for example

If a passenger was blind, or found looking out of the window disagreeable, or was a midget so could fit in the seats, or got a kick out of claustrophobia, or actively liked looking at a wall of white plastic (possibly it reminds him of the interior of his padded cell), then maybe, just maybe that passenger might see a Pendolino as an improvement to a mk III. Meanwhile, back in the real world.....

Don't be patronising, you sound like a certain poster from Sheffield who has to belittle anyone who doesn't share his point of view. I fall into none of your categories and having used 390s a lot this year (at least two days a week with the exception of a weeks holiday) I am yet to have a disagreeable journey caused by the 390 itself

 

[4SRKT]

I have not said that the service on the WCML isn't an improvement, as it clearly is. This is an improvement in the timetable, made possible by the improvements to signalling, permanent way etc, and of course by the faster trains. There is absolutely no reason however why these trains have to be so damn crap though. It has nothing to do with my liking of loco haulage, which comes from a dislike of underfloor noise, so is irrelevant on electric traction. It has to do mainly with the tiny windows and the lack of visibility from too many of the seats.

So, to sum up, the trains are not an improvement over the peerless mk III coach, but the service is a huge improvement (despite and not because of the trains). How much better would the overall package be if the Pendolino had the comfort and visibility of a mk III?

You need to retune yr irony detector BTW. It's not working properly

 

[sprinterguy]

Tbh, I'm having difficulty finding fault with the trains themselves, except the tiny windows and vast window pillars, which are of course a big negative point. I think it's a case that the Pendolinos are "adequate" trains for service they are providing, so it's hard to complain about them, personally, whereas the mark 3s were, and continue to be, a cut above the rest in terms of interior design, comfort and atmosphere.

 

[Geezertronic]

I don't fancy getting into another 390 good/bad debate as there are plenty of them on here. From my point of view, there's nothing wrong with the 390s that a can of Airwick Peach and Jasmine cannot sort out

 

[gordonthemoron]

why do Pendolino's need small windows when ICE-Ts which also tilt don't?

 

[class156]

why do Pendolino's need small windows when ICE-Ts which also tilt don't?

Probably to stop people flying out of the windows in the very unlikely event of a crash

 

[Geezertronic]

why do Pendolino's need small windows when ICE-Ts which also tilt don't?

Apart from them being made by different manufacturers, maybe it's a loading gauge thing?

Some good info here:

http://www.railfaneurope.net/ice/ict.html

I notice that not all seats are window seats

 

[90019]

I notice that not all seats are window seats

Quick, to Wikiepdia with your research!

 

[Geezertronic]

Quick, to Wikiepdia with your research!

Give me chance to think of some emotive crap that makes no sense first

 

[route:oxford]

The worst "improvement" has got to be timekeeping.

Timetables have been "padded" out for many years for the benefit of statistics. This means that whilst most trains arrive on time - many do arrive early, with nowhere to go but to sit outside the station and await the timetabled vacant platform.

So irritating when you know that had there been a vacant platform you would have caught the earlier local connecting service.

 

[me123]

The worst "improvement" has got to be timekeeping.

Timetables have been "padded" out for many years for the benefit of statistics. This means that whilst most trains arrive on time - many do arrive early, with nowhere to go but to sit outside the station and await the timetabled vacant platform.

On the flip side of that coin, it does mean that trains are more likely to be on time. I'd rather be on a train that arrives 5 minutes early 40% of the time than on one that arrives five minutes late 60% of the time.

 

[Oswyntail]

On the flip side of that coin, it does mean that trains are more likely to be on time. I'd rather be on a train that arrives 5 minutes early 40% of the time than on one that arrives five minutes late 60% of the time.

Exactly. The main benefit of timetabling arrivals is predictability. If i have to be in Leeds for 12:45 I know which train to catch. Early doesn't matter, whether we sit outside the station, or arrive early; late destroys confidence in the railways. And, for most journeys, speed is of secondary importance. Padding is a good thing

 

[4SRKT]

Exactly. The main benefit of timetabling arrivals is predictability. If i have to be in Leeds for 12:45 I know which train to catch. Early doesn't matter, whether we sit outside the station, or arrive early; late destroys confidence in the railways. And, for most journeys, speed is of secondary importance. Padding is a good thing

OTOH in the days of realistic timings (and long distance trains always had some slack built in BTW) connections would be held, so it mattered less.

Tbh, I'm having difficulty finding fault with the trains themselves, except the tiny windows and vast window pillars, which are of course a big negative point. I think it's a case that the Pendolinos are "adequate" trains for service they are providing, so it's hard to complain about them, personally, whereas the mark 3s were, and continue to be, a cut above the rest in terms of interior design, comfort and atmosphere.

So a train (as opposed to a timetabled service) that is 'adequate' that replaces one that is 'a cut above' is most definitely not an improvement. I agree that compared with many trains Pendos are pretty good, but in the terms of this thread, they are not an improvement on what went before. Something as simple as Pendos having Voyager windows (but obviously not toilets.....) would make such a big difference.

 

[tbtc]

Exactly. The main benefit of timetabling arrivals is predictability. If i have to be in Leeds for 12:45 I know which train to catch. Early doesn't matter, whether we sit outside the station, or arrive early; late destroys confidence in the railways. And, for most journeys, speed is of secondary importance. Padding is a good thing

+1

Take yesterday. My wife is coming back from Birmingham to Sheffield. The Voyager she was on was three late at Bristol/ Cheltenham. But, thanks to a reliable timetable it got into Birmingham New Street okay, so left okay, so got through the pinch-points like Chesterfield okay and arrived in Sheffield on time.

A few years ago a delay at Bristol would have meant crawling from Longbridge behind the "Cross CIty" service, missing your platform at New Street, getting stuck behind a Tamworth/Burton DMU as far as Derby, playing second fiddle to other services and be half an hour late by the time it arrived in Sheffield.

Frustrating when your service is early and you know you'll be held back, but not as frustrating as a minor delay which leads to a major one (because there is no padding). A necessary evil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't be patronising, you sound like a certain poster from Sheffield who has to belittle anyone who doesn't share his point of view

You called?

Oh, wait, him...

 

[Zoe]

A few years ago a delay at Bristol would have meant crawling from Longbridge behind the "Cross CIty" service, missing your platform at New Street, getting stuck behind a Tamworth/Burton DMU as far as Derby, playing second fiddle to other services and be half an hour late by the time it arrived in Sheffield.

A journey into New Street usually involves crawling from King's Norton all the way into New Street even if you are on time. It surprises me that they don't send the intercity services from Bristol in via Camp Hill to avoid this.

 

[MCR247]

Any time savings will most likely be lost with the reversal though

 

[moonrakerz]

How about the "improvement" where they closed platforms at multi platform stations, they weren't "needed" because of bi-directional use of the remaining platforms. Track has been lifted/relaid away from the platform, platforms fenced off, remaining platforms re-numbered, etc, etc...................

and now they want to re-open these closed platforms - two near me:- Westbury and Salisbury :roll::roll: