Worst Improvement?

[OMGitsDAVE]

The Sunderland Metro extension

I disagree with that - Sunderland is like Newcastle, a major hub - and without the Metro, it would have not grown at such a rate. The Metro is great for Sunderland and Newcastle, as you can get from one to the other in about 30 / 40 minutes - via, of course, Heworth etc.

 

[Aictos]

It's also to be remembered that Beeching apparently commissioned the MGR system which still to this day is one of the backbones of the rail freight industry.

You forgot the other railwayman responsible for them as well!

Gerard Fiennes, the ideal railway manager!

 

[johnb]

johnb: They are overcrowded, as when Vomiters were ordered, the were going to double the frequencey, and half the carriges, if that makes sense. ie EDB-PLY every 30minutes, 4 car opposed to every 60mins, with 8 coaches, but they couldnt maintain the TT becasue of reliability problems, and they then had to go back to the old TT.

No, that's complete nonsense. The frequency was doubled, and the early stages weren't very reliable, but they dealt with that by removing XC services from the peripheral routes well-served by other TOCs in order to maintain the improved service on the core route (roughly Newcastle/Manchester/Bristol/Reading in a cross, plus Birmingham-Scotland). As 22x reliability improved, they decided to use the extra availability to strengthen core services with 2x22x, rather than returning to the peripheral routes.
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Unusable? Have big difficulties reading a timetable thats a bit more complicated than standard pattern do you? Everyone else seemed to find it quite useable! I'm sure all the people that have lost XC services as a result of the shambles that was Operation Pumpkin will disagree with your opinion that it was a success.

What's easier, having to read a timetable, or knowing you can turn up and get on the xx00 and xx30 train?

The project improved the connections between the UK's major cities significantly, and hence grew readership. It meant that some places lost once-a-day trains which barely anyone used for through journeys, in favour of improved frequency (=> connections) that made almost all *actual journeys* between those places faster.

 

[Failed Unit]

What's easier, having to read a timetable, or knowing you can turn up and get on the xx00 and xx30 train?

The project improved the connections between the UK's major cities significantly, and hence grew readership. It meant that some places lost once-a-day trains which barely anyone used for through journeys, in favour of improved frequency (=> connections) that made almost all *actual journeys* between those places faster.

Try telling that to someone that use to travel from Liverpool - Bristol on a direct train, I am sure they think that having to change is a step backwards.

Likewise Penzance - Birmingham has half as many seats available than it used to due to the shorter trains.

I have seen documented elsewhere that the number of seats avialable between Newcastle and Birmingham is less than what it used to be as 2x Voyagers have less seats than 1x HST.

I will admit there are winners in the XC revolution but also many losers, like the ones that have lost thier direct trains. It is a fact that passengers prefer direct trains even if it is only 1 per day. Does a half hourly frequency really encourage people out their cars when you the railway wants you to use AP's at least you can drive home should your meeting finish early!

 

[scandal]

another bad move was the bletchley flyover, since it was built it has had very little traffic, not enough to even warrant it even being there

Part of the brilliance that was the 1955 Modernisation Plan loan, which wasnt paid off until the 1980s! I would be careful writing it out though, the idea was to provide the East West (Oxford - Cambridge) line with a flyover to reduce congestion on the newly modernised/modernising West Coast line at Bletchley and would still provide much use if the line is reopened today (projected at about £150m and very very useful by all BCR accounts). Now you may wonder why bridge over a useful stop? Well it reduces conflicting movements and increases the speed of the cross country services benefitting the passengers of that. Of course it shows the dangers of not joined up thinking, as early as 1959 there were plans to close the useful line!

Hopefully one day it will get its rightful use.

 

[MCR247]

No, that's complete nonsense. The frequency was doubled, and the early stages weren't very reliable, but they dealt with that by removing XC services from the peripheral routes well-served by other TOCs in order to maintain the improved service on the core route (roughly Newcastle/Manchester/Bristol/Reading in a cross, plus Birmingham-Scotland). As 22x reliability improved, they decided to use the extra availability to strengthen core services with 2x22x, rather than returning to the peripheral routes.

So, how many M-F peak services were double vomiters before HST came back. I have seen them on Saturdays & Sundays, only empty services. So if you think vomiters were a success, then why were HSTs introduced, to help out the trains that were meant to replace it

 

[tbtc]

Hazel Grove got wired (albeit a bit late) for the Picc-Vic project. Before the 'Windsor Link' and ' Hazel Grove Chord', it was just part of the Manchester - Buxton service.

At one time, Hazel Grove had a ten minute peak period frequency, and some of the best off-peak levels of ridership in the area, but this has been run further and further down over the years. Yet DfT have just given £164million to build the Hazel Grove bypass between 2014-2019, a road proposed since the 1960s, and possibly earlier.

If Picc-Vic had got fully built, rather than the 'bits' we got (like Hazel Grove, Altrincham and Bury Interchanges), the section as far as HG would have run to Victoria Low Level, 10 minute peak frequency, the section past HG would be either a busway, a diesel operated shuttle or electrified to Buxton. Of course, none happened!

I'll admit to knowing nothing about the "Picc Vic" line - how ambitions was it? Certainly sounds interesting

 

[me123]

Say what? XC was near-unusable pre-Princess (and I tried to use it a lot); now it's a reliable, regular-interval service that has seen massive increases in passenger numbers. That's why the trains are full, even though they provide more capacity than the pre-Voyager service.

Most passengers don't care about seat alignment, as satisfaction surveys consistently show. But yes, the bog smells are, erm, crap.

How on earth d'you get 'kill', on a route which grew faster than the national average throughout a decade when the national average growth was its fastest since WWII?

IEP doesn't include any of the XC routes. At most, it may involve the displacement of some electric stock onto electrified XC routes (although the only fully electrified XC route, Brum-Glasgow, was transferred to WC at the new franchise - Brum-Manc is the only other segment where this could conceivably be done), so the Voyagers can be redeployed to replace retired HSTs.

There's all the growth which I am generally supportive of. But the enhancement didn't really allow for growth. Instead, you have 4 carriage trains running around overcrowded, and they literally smell crap. The route may well be more popular than ever before, but I would suggest that passenger satisfaction is also down.

I don't think the idea was bad, it was a great idea. But the execution was abysmal. I think the three small flaws with the Voyagers have been critical in this, and in particular the length of the trains has made them almost a victim of their own success.

So, in essence, what I'm saying is that the expansion of the Cross Country route has been so popular, that it has resulted in overcrowding and unpleasant travel conditions. I hope that they can improve things, not on the core route frequency, but with additional capacity for the existing services. That's why I hope that they get dual-powered IEP trains to supplement Voyagers and, potentially, other displaced rolling stock, although I'm aware that the IEP is not set to benefit Cross Country directly.

 

[Failed Unit]

The other interesting thing about the XC new timetable is that people now travel via London to get the best deals / quickest journey times. Something the XC network was supposed help people avoid, but if you have to change somewhere you might as well get a better journey.

Splitting a few hairs, Newcastle - Birmingham may be 1/2 hourly, but passenger really only use one of them as the service via Leeds is 20 minutes slower and the following train via Doncaster has nearly caught it up by Newcastle. Also if 80% of people are now using AP tickets as I said in my previous post, makes the 1/2 hour frequency totally irrelavent as you still have 1 train per day, the one you are travelling on.

Also 1/2 hour 4 coach trains are worse for the network then hourly 8 coach trains because of the paths they use.

I think most people agree on here, if the Voyagers were all 6 coaches then everyone would be a winner. I did prefer the previous timetable where the cross-Birmingham services alternated, ie Leeds - Bournemouth on hour and Leeds - Plymouth the other. A train every other hour was perfect and MOST of the previous through were still possible.

 

[jp4712]

I'll admit to knowing nothing about the "Picc Vic" line - how ambitions was it? Certainly sounds interesting

The Picc-Vic project was planned and promoted by the SELNEC PTE (South East Lancashire, North East Cheshire) in the early 1970s. This ambitious plan envisaged the construction of an underground railway from just north east of Manchester Victoria, to a point south east of Manchester Piccadilly. This would have taken trains from the Bury line later incorporated into Metrolink, plus train from Bolton via a reopened Radcliffe Central - Bolton link. The system was envisaged as 25kV overhead 'heavy rail'. Trains would have run through the tunnel to terminate at (IIRC) a choice of Hazel Grove via Stockport, Wilmslow or Marple Rose Hill.

Underground stations would have been sited at Victoria, Royal Exchange, St Peter's Square (called 'Central'), Whitworth Street and Piccadilly:

There are persistent rumours that the basic concrete box structure for Royal Exchange station was built as part of the Arndale Centre construction, and may still be there. What is definitely true is that legal powers were incorporated into an Act of Parliament in 1973; test bores were undertaken and the whole thing came very, very close to happening.

Unfortunately Government finance crises in the 1970s meant that the scheme was killed off. About the most tangible evidence of the scheme is a large (six feet tall by eight feet wide) illuminated scheme map which was put on public display at Victoria and Piccadilly stations in 1974 and which is now on display at the Manchester Museum of Transport .

Let me know if you want any more, I don't wish to hijack the thread.

Paul

 

[paul1609]

But I do agrree terrible design which was practical when first built but did not stand a chance in hell in the 21st century the main problem is the lack of light within the station.I understand the speed limit to be too low but honestly passengers can deal with aspects such as this because we have slightly bigger fish to fry such as the continuing delays over the Birmingham - Coventry line considering it's is apparently the busiest two track mainline in the UK.

.

I think the Brighton Main Line south of Balcombe Tunnel Junction would see it off by a considerable margin. The whole stretch down to Preston Park has 22 tph off peak. The stretch between Haywards and Keymer Junction has the portions of the Littlehampton/ Eastbourne services so has 24 tph.

 

[Spaceflower]

I disagree with that - Sunderland is like Newcastle, a major hub - and without the Metro, it would have not grown at such a rate. The Metro is great for Sunderland and Newcastle, as you can get from one to the other in about 30 / 40 minutes - via, of course, Heworth etc.

Feel free to disagree Dave.
Now do you honestly expect me to believe Sunderland has grown rapidly since the arrival of the Metro extension a few years ago? or (silly me) are you referring to the station itself?:roll: oh lets create a metro hub....to create a metro hub?
As for getting to Newcastle in 30-40 minutes, im pretty sure it was faster before the Metro and probably alot cheaper too!
The fact is the metro extension failed to hit its forecast with regards to pax numbers and all it did was attract users who were already using other forms of public transport. security/crime is a major issue, service frequency was halved after a year and cost of tickets have soared.

 

[krus_aragon]

I think the Brighton Main Line south of Balcombe Tunnel Junction would see it off by a considerable margin. The whole stretch down to Preston Park has 22 tph off peak. The stretch between Haywards and Keymer Junction has the portions of the Littlehampton/ Eastbourne services so has 24 tph.

Is that in each direction? The flyover between Cardiff Queen Street sees 12tph in each direction, and is said to be operating at capacity.

 

[Waverley125]

Rebuilding leeds city without enough platforms to cope with growth. The fact that it's full only 7 years after such a major remodelling is testament to the failure to future-proof the project.

oh, and the '67 rebuild of leeds city, and city house. Both disasters.

 

[jon0844]

Well, St Pancras will soon suffer the same problems I think.

 

[Oswyntail]

Rebuilding leeds city without enough platforms to cope with growth. The fact that it's full only 7 years after such a major remodelling is testament to the failure to future-proof the project.

oh, and the '67 rebuild of leeds city, and city house. Both disasters.

Talking of Leeds, one small detail always riles me. The clear parts of the roofing are facing North and the covered parts facing south, which means that there is never any sunlight in the place, and, presumably, the cladding gets hot.

 

[tbtc]

Well, St Pancras will soon suffer the same problems I think.

Good point - not building the new Thameslink station with four platforms is a big mistake, if they are seriously trying to fit two dozen trains an hour through the central Thameslink route at some stage in the future.

Fair enough for the "tradidional" eight an hour, but one every few minutes and you're going to get tailbacks!
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Talking of Leeds, one small detail always riles me. The clear parts of the roofing are facing North and the covered parts facing south, which means that there is never any sunlight in the place, and, presumably, the cladding gets hot.

That's standard practice on a lot of buildings (on and off the railway) - ensures a more "consistent" level of light apparently

 

[Mojo]

Good point - not building the new Thameslink station with four platforms is a big mistake, if they are seriously trying to fit two dozen trains an hour through the central Thameslink route at some stage in the future.

Fair enough for the "tradidional" eight an hour, but one every few minutes and you're going to get tailbacks!

Possibly, but London Underground seem to manage with very high frequencies. It's not uncommon to be stood at Victoria or Euston Square with trains all one minute (or less) apart.

 

[MCR247]

St Pancras : The MML domestic side should have more than that 4 platforms! Now, if EMT decided to do a High(ish) Frequencey TT it would be impossible.

 

[jon0844]

Possibly, but London Underground seem to manage with very high frequencies. It's not uncommon to be stood at Victoria or Euston Square with trains all one minute (or less) apart.

Although the tube does work to a timetable, most people are simply used to getting on the next train. If they're all a few minutes late it doesn't really matter too much to Joe Public - besides the inevitable crowding on the first train after a pause. I suppose the Met line is one exception with fast/semi-fast trains.

But on the TL route, there will be many trains going to totally different destinations and with different calling patterns. It will certainly prove quite a bit more confusing when things go wrong - which they will, even with the clever automatic train operation that will be brought in.

 

[Waverley125]

the other problem with the north facing windows is having city house in the way, which means it's usually dark, and blocks the obvious space for another east-facing bay platform and extension of the concourse. Also, putting the car parking where the new west-facing bays will need to go.

 

[daccer]

the 60's and 70's were a bleak time for architecture as a whole and for railway architecture in particular. You can basically say that any building work undertaken by BR during this period was a backward step as lovely stations were swept away for functional replacements (if any were built at all many stations were left with nothing). I cant think of one station redone during this period which has stood the test of time. It is just a relief that BR had no cash to re do all the network so we still have hundreds of lovely stations left (we just need to learn how to look after them now!)

I predict that within a decade there wont be a major station left which had a rebuild in the 60's and that Brutalist architecture will be gone from our network for good and franklly good riddance.

 

[johnb]

@MCR247 the absolute scandal isn't the 4x high level platforms, it's the 2x low level platforms. Should've been 4, for sure.

@daccer Euston has clearly stood the test of time, and will certainly be standing in something closely resembling its current form in 2020.

 

[Geezertronic]

@daccer Euston has clearly stood the test of time, and will certainly be standing in something closely resembling its current form in 2020.

I hope the same won't be said for Birmingham New Street, can't wait for them to start rebuilding.

 

[daccer]

The plans for Euston are already in place and it is only the economic problems that are delaying work. However I do concede that euston is far from the worst problem out there. With CP4 allocating a sizeable chunk of money for station redevelopment i hope the worst offenders are dealt with quickly - Wakefield Kirkgate, Stafford, Peterborough and man Vic really need attention - hopefully the plans for these stations are well advanced and will be done first.

 

[yorksrob]

Demolishing trainsheds - eg Bradford Exchange. Railway stations are gateways to their settlements and an impressive trainshed gives a city a certain glamour and confidence.

Also Pacers. They really should have just refurbed what went before and waited until they could afford something better.

 

[rick9525]

Demolishing trainsheds - eg Bradford Exchange. Railway stations are gateways to their settlements and an impressive trainshed gives a city a certain glamour and confidence.

Also Pacers. They really should have just refurbed what went before and waited until they could afford something better.

They did with the 101;s which ran till 2003, (I was on the last one) a full 20 or so years since the first pacers. Now Marple is stuck with too many pacers a few few 150s and 156s.

Now I have moved to Hadfield its 323s all the way.

For a long time platform 0 at Stockport was up there though at least its know being used..

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, I remember seeing the 101's at Piccadilly although I never got to travel on them on national rail (although I did on the north Norfolk railway and it was perfectly comfy - particularly as we had the front window seat )

 

[starrymarkb]

So, how many M-F peak services were double vomiters before HST came back. I have seen them on Saturdays & Sundays, only empty services. So if you think vomiters were a success, then why were HSTs introduced, to help out the trains that were meant to replace it

Because half the 221 fleet was sent to West Coast?

 

[MCR247]

Putting Ticket barriers in Nottingham. Dosent make sense, as to get from the car park to the ticket office, you have to go through the barriers. Well thought out EMT :roll: