Worcester trains fiasco - apparently

[HowardGWR]

Today there were horrendous delays on the Honeybourne line that appeared to be a succession of trains being queued up behind one that broke down (on the single line section?). Arrivals at Paddington were typically 150 mins late.

Anyone know what was happening (or rather not happening)?

 

[jimm]

Incident involved the 05.28 from Hereford to Paddington while it was standing at Charlbury station at about 07.30.

I cannot guarantee this is the exact scenario but my understanding is that a passenger pulled an alarm handle, swiftly followed by someone doing the same elsewhere on the train (no idea why). The system refused to reset and the train was stranded for getting on for three hours (I saw it was noted as 160 minutes-plus late on JourneyCheck) with the halts trains to Oxford and the 06.42 from Hereford to London stuck behind it, eventually joined by the 08.26 from Worcester, which got as far as Moreton-in-Marsh before joining the traffic jam. The 08.58 Oxford to Moreton-in-Marsh/09.50 return to London was cancelled west of Oxford. Other services were delayed or turned back short of destinations into the afternoon.

 

[Monkey Magic]

The parking brake on the rear powercar became jammed on (or at least this was the story they were telling us on the train). They had to manually take it off. Control then took a very long time to decide that it was safe for the train to leave.

Train ran through to Paddington without problems after that.

 

[BestWestern]

The parking brake on the rear powercar became jammed on (or at least this was the story they were telling us on the train). They had to manually take it off. Control then took a very long time to decide that it was safe for the train to leave.

Train ran through to Paddington without problems after that.

Sounds plausible, there are manual winding handles on the power car bogies for that situation. And gaining authorisation from control to continue, particularly after an unusual occurrence of some kind, can take some time.

 

[HowardGWR]

Sounds plausible, there are manual winding handles on the power car bogies for that situation. And gaining authorisation from control to continue, particularly after an unusual occurrence of some kind, can take some time.

Thanks for the info everyone. What struck me was the apparent lack of communication back to stations further west. The trains just seemed to pile up behind one another at Ascott, presumably in the 'middle of nowhere, just a few miles behind the broken down one, at least this is what I read back from yesterday's Realtime Trains.

See this link (hope it works).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...0&show_wtt=1&show_var=1&show_stp=1&show_can=1

I chose Oxford as one sees the effect on more local services too. Apart from the comms issue above, one sees the continued singling at Charlbury - Wolvercote as a major source of major delay, it appears.

Those business travellers would have missed their morning appointments and one just hopes there were no airport and Eurostar pax, but I expect there were.

 

[455driver]

Control then took a very long time to decide that it was safe for the train to leave.

Control* take over an hour to decide if they want tea or coffee, ask them a serious question about the operational railway and they go into full arse covering mode and just leave the crews on the trains/stations to take all the abuse!


* using the word very loosely indeed.

Every incident I have been involved in has been extended imensely because "control" wont listen to the people on the ground, I appreciate that we can only see our little bit of the big picture but even a simple/obvious decision takes an inordinate amount of time to get permission for.

 

[DarloRich]

Today there were horrendous delays on the Honeybourne line that appeared to be a succession of trains being queued up behind one that broke down (on the single line section?). Arrivals at Paddington were typically 150 mins late.

Anyone know what was happening (or rather not happening)?

Fiasco :roll: yes that is the right word for a few delays caused by a failed train.

Guess what? Trains break down. Deal with it. it is hardly a fiasco :roll:

 

[455driver]

Fiasco :roll: yes that is the right word for a few delays caused by a failed train.

Guess what? Trains break down. Deal with it. it is hardly a fiasco :roll:

Oh if its FGW it is either a fiasco or that other favourite, a farce!

 

[Captain Chaos]

Oh if its FGW it is either a fiasco or that other favourite, a farce!

Usually followed up by some sentence containing the immortal words: Virgin Trains!

 

[khib70]

Usually followed up by some sentence containing the immortal words: Virgin Trains!

Brilliant , even for what is rapidly becoming an FGW fansite.

At least four trains delayed for up to three hours - not a fiasco?? And congratulations for getting a dig at Virgin in so quickly on a thread about chaotic disruption on FGW. I enjoy spotting how quickly anti-Virgin digs pop up on threads that have absolutely nothing to do with Virgin.:roll:

 

[Tomnick]

Control* take over an hour to decide if they want tea or coffee, ask them a serious question about the operational railway and they go into full arse covering mode and just leave the crews on the trains/stations to take all the abuse!


* using the word very loosely indeed.

Every incident I have been involved in has been extended imensely because "control" wont listen to the people on the ground, I appreciate that we can only see our little bit of the big picture but even a simple/obvious decision takes an inordinate amount of time to get permission for.

Ah yes, Control. Some of ours are brilliant, know the patch really well and can make timely decisions. The rest do seem to fumble around for an answer to the most basic train running question. Where possible (and legal!), I try to follow a policy of acting first, then telling them what I've done - or at least presenting them with my intended course of action first.

 

[DarloRich]

:

Brilliant , even for what is rapidly becoming an FGW fansite.

At least four trains delayed for up to three hours - not a fiasco?? And congratulations for getting a dig at Virgin in so quickly on a thread about chaotic disruption on FGW. I enjoy spotting how quickly anti-Virgin digs pop up on threads that have absolutely nothing to do with Virgin.:roll:

what do you expect to happen when a train conks out on a single track section in the middle of nowhere? :roll:

Not sure about the rest of the guff about FGW or Virgin fansites really.

 

[khib70]

:

what do you expect to happen when a train conks out on a single track section in the middle of nowhere? :roll:

Not sure about the rest of the guff about FGW or Virgin fansites really.

Someone to deal with it in less than three hours, while keeping all the affected passengers informed?????

 

[dzug2]

The story as relayed on one of the following trains (0642 from Hereford) was:

train crew tried repeatedly to fix it and failed

fitter sent for - arrived 0900ish also failed

0930 ish loco from Didcot sent for to assist

1030ish - told train now moved. Whether with assistance of said loco or not - pass

Then ran in path of 0954 from Moreton (but no Slough stop) leaving Charlbury at 1109 and arrived at Paddington just before 1220

There were certainly airport and Eurostar passengers on board
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

See this link (hope it works).

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...0&show_wtt=1&show_var=1&show_stp=1&show_can=1

I chose Oxford as one sees the effect on more local services too. Apart from the comms issue above, one sees the continued singling at Charlbury - Wolvercote as a major source of major delay, it appears.

.

It works - but doesn't show what happened in the morning. The site seems to drop 'old' data more than 24 and a few hours old

 

[83G/84D]

Perhaps the people that continually use words like farce and fiasco without knowing all the facts and not in some cases being there can take a step back and spare a thought for the hard working rail staff that every day try and keep the trains moving in difficult circumstances and without recognition.

Things go wrong in the rail industry and other industries as well but it seems the railway is an easy target for some ill informed people that know little or nothing about how the railway really works.

Give us some slack now and again as rest assured when things do go wrong people do work hard to restore things back to normal safely and quickly.

 

[DarloRich]

Someone to deal with it in less than three hours, while keeping all the affected passengers informed?????

So:

1) Train fails
2) On board staff try to identify and fix the fault
3) They cant so they call control and ask for a fitter to be dispatched
4) Said fitter boards his van in the depot which is liable to be some distance from site
5) Fitter drivers to site ( in a speed limited van no doubt !)
6) Fitter tries to fix train
7) He can’t so he asks control for an assisting loco
8) Due to the nature of the privatised railway everyone runs about like mad trying to find a loco, then find a loco that can actually couple to the stranded train, then find a driver who signs the route, then after finding him realise he has insufficient hours left, then find another driver with “hours on the clock”, get everyone to agree who pays, sort out a path then send the loco on its way, essentially the wrong way down a one way street
9) Staff on site, in conjunction with HQ maintenance types bodge up a fix, perhaps using brown paper and a boot lace from a passenger and train limps away and voilà the line is open.

Now whilst I am sure you know best and without wishing to cause offense how do you propose things be done quicker? On board spares? Helicopter transfer? Crewed, spare, locos every 17 miles?

I am sure control would love a copy of the Haynes Railway Operations manual that you all seem to think exists which allows you to turn to page 45632 appendix ii sub paragraph zz which indicates that a total loss of air can be fixed within exactly 43.45 minutes and the train rolling within 45. Unfortunately the world aint like that.

Now, at no point do I not suggest that being stuck on one of these trains is a massive pain and a total inconvenience and liable to create anger and frustration. That said the same problems happen in your car or at the airport.

Communication is clearly the key to keeping passengers informed but the kind of communication you want is simply not possible. You want to know, almost instantly, how long you will be stuck. That simply cant be done in anything like the speed people want.

 

[Tomnick]

...
8) Due to the nature of the privatised railway everyone runs about like mad trying to find a loco, then find a loco that can actually couple to the stranded train, then find a driver who signs the route, then after finding him realise he has insufficient hours left, then find another driver with “hours on the clock”, get everyone to agree who pays, sort out a path then send the loco on its way, essentially the wrong way down a one way street

I think that's the root of the problem. There's not a lot that can be done about incompatible fleets, and I don't think it's realistic to have fully crewed locos ready to go every 17 miles. Some of the decision-making behind the scenes could sometimes be quicker though - is it the case, as posts above seem to suggest, that arrangements for an assisting loco weren't even started to be made until the fitter had finally fought his way to site? Clearing the line ought to be a priority, even if the quickest way of doing so means dragging something out of the section that could possibly be fixed, given a little more time. Getting the assistance in needn't be complicated, provided that there's a way around everything else that'll be standing by now - but a lack of local knowledge in Control might make it so. How about single line working around a failure to at least keep a service running? Obviously not possible on a single line railway such as this, but generally the loss of competencies that might be required (Pilotman being an obvious example) doesn't help when it is a possibility.

It's not just the railway though!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If this was at Charlbury, could the following trains not use the loop to get past?
Or isn't the loop reversibly signalled?

Sorry, forgot about the redoubling west of Charlbury.
Still, weren't there any overtaking options?

 

[HSTEd]

Short of requiring all stock be fitted or refitted with identical couplers, there is not much that can be done.

And how much would a Class 01 or Class 08 cost anyway?

 

[Tomnick]

If this was at Charlbury, could the following trains not use the loop to get past?
Or isn't the loop reversibly signalled?

Sorry, forgot about the redoubling west of Charlbury.
Still, weren't there any overtaking options?

I don't really know that bit of trainset, but you'd need SLW on a conventional double line (without reversible signalling) unless you were fortunate enough to have the right moves to get around a failure in station limits.

HSTEd - what use would a 15mph loco be, probably some distance away? A common, and probably quicker, response would be to nobble the loco off another train to assist. In fairness, and despite my earlier words, Control are usually pretty good at arranging this sort of thing in my experience.

 

[Monkey Magic]

The train was fixed without any need for a rescue locomotive from Didcot.

The three people involved in fixing the problem were working continuously on trying to fix the problem - which involved them having to go down onto the permanent way. The fact that people were working on the side of the powercar may well be one of the reasons why they did not run anything on the wrong line.

I'm afraid I don't know what the rules are about wrong line running but as far as I recall the nearest crossover is at Moreton in Marsh.

The problem was that the parking brake was jammed on. I am not sure how you move a train with its brakes jammed on.

As I said, the fitter and driver both commented that the problem was fixed but that they were waiting for a decision from control as to what control wanted them to do. Whether or not to proceed or to declare the train failed.

The crew on the train and the staff at Charlbury were all excellent in what was a difficult situation.

The problem was I think that it was hard to estimate how long the problem was going to take to fix. Charlbury is about 45 mins from Oxford by road so the quickest replacement bus transport could be got out there would be about an hour maybe. Not so good if the problem takes 25 mins to fix.

When there have been problems heading out of Oxford and they've had to taxi us it normally takes about 10-15 mins to arrange transport.

 

[transmanche]

Perhaps the people that continually use words like farce and fiasco without knowing all the facts and not in some cases being there can take a step back and spare a thought for the hard working rail staff that every day try and keep the trains moving in difficult circumstances and without recognition.

I appreciate what you are saying - and I have no doubt that some people work very hard in trying to get the service restored.

But if you look at it from the customer's point of view, if they feel it is a fiasco, then they're entitled to say so. And they might also say that rail staff are paid to work hard at restoring the service - that it's their job.

It's not right if people shout abuse when someone is working hard to restore the service. But, as far as the average customer is concerned, they don't care how the service is restored - so long as it is restored and they are kept informed. It's unfortunate that in today's railway it seems that the man or woman on the front line is often kept in the dark as much as the passengers.

 

[Monkey Magic]

A fiasco suggests that people had no idea what was going on.

It was the reverse.

A train broke down and it took a long time to fix the problem having tried various other ways to fix the problem.

The crew knew what they were doing and were working hard to fix the problem. At no point was there the stereotype of people looking at a broken down HST powercar saying 'I've got no idea'.

The problem was that:

i) there was no way to re-route any of the trains stuck behind the broken down train
ii) There was poor communication between those in Charlbury and Control, and presumably Control weren't being a great deal of help to those trains behind.

A farce/fiasco suggests a lack of professionalism but from where I was sat/stood everyone at Charlbury yesterday was a model of professionalism.

 

[dcsprior]

A fiasco suggests that people had no idea what was going on.

I'm not so sure that fiasco implies that people don't know what is going on, all the definitions I can find refer only to an embarrassing failure. Having your vehicle break down with passengers on board is surely something everyone would class as embarrassing

Oxford Dictionary: a complete failure, especially a ludicrous or humiliating one
Cambridge Dictionary: something planned that goes wrong and is a complete failure, usually in an embarrassing way
Collins Dictionary: a complete failure, esp one that is ignominious or humiliating
Wiktionary: 1 - A ludicrous or humiliating failure. Some effort that went quite wrong

 

[HowardGWR]

A fiasco suggests that people had no idea what was going on.

It was the reverse.

A train broke down and it took a long time to fix the problem having tried various other ways to fix the problem.

The crew knew what they were doing and were working hard to fix the problem. At no point was there the stereotype of people looking at a broken down HST powercar saying 'I've got no idea'.

The problem was that:

i) there was no way to re-route any of the trains stuck behind the broken down train
ii) There was poor communication between those in Charlbury and Control, and presumably Control weren't being a great deal of help to those trains behind.

A farce/fiasco suggests a lack of professionalism but from where I was sat/stood everyone at Charlbury yesterday was a model of professionalism.

Good points MM and when I titled the thread originally, I was hoping that the word 'apparently' would be seen as a request for clarification and not as an accusation, certainly not to those on the spot. It seems that your point ii) may be important and also let's not forget the evidence given that the problem arose simply as a result of pax pulling the comms cord (apparently). I presume an investigation will take place as to why that led to what it did.

Despite some rather emotional subsequent posting, I hope all will agree that for the pax hoping to catch a Heathrow flight, changing at Reading, as but one example, they must have been in despair with a three hour delay. Three trains, one after the other, so delayed. They were all on time shortly before the blockage, that is what puzzled me, why they could all end up like that.

One hopes that FGW will carry out a full post mortem, as one wonders whether pax for the later trains might not have been sent another way around, if timely info had been capable of being sent back. This is where your point ii) comes in, perhaps.

It would be very interesting to learn what the management discover and put right, eventually.

 

[edwin_m]

A farce/fiasco suggests a lack of professionalism but from where I was sat/stood everyone at Charlbury yesterday was a model of professionalism.

No doubt. Unfortunately there was a problem elsewhere and the chain is only as strong as its weakest link. So despite the best efforts of the people on the ground, from the customer's point of view it was not an example of successful incident management.

As no doubt numerous passengers pointed out (probably using other forms of words) to the blameless traincrew afterwards.

 

[455driver]

Perhaps the people that continually use words like farce and fiasco without knowing all the facts and not in some cases being there can take a step back and spare a thought for the hard working rail staff that every day try and keep the trains moving in difficult circumstances and without recognition.

That made me actually laugh out loud!

Customers actually give a to## about the staff , we are just there to be ignored when everything is fine and hurled abuse at when its all gone wrong!

Anecdote-

I was at Guildford when a desiro came in with smoke pouring from underneath a motor coach, some passengers on board called the fire brigade who insisted on closing the complete railway through Guildford for nearly 2 hours despite being told the fault had been identified and isolated, but they still "took charge" despite not being needed.

The station quickly fillled with passengers so I went out for a nosey (as you do), there was one bloke really giving the platform staff hell so I offered to "advise" him of the problem with the train. By the time I had finished he had been told exactly what happens from the time the electricity goes into the train to the time it leaves the train, he had rather a glazed expression by the end and didnt bother the staff again.

 

[DarloRich]

I think that's the root of the problem. There's not a lot that can be done about incompatible fleets, and I don't think it's realistic to have fully crewed locos ready to go every 17 miles. Some of the decision-making behind the scenes could sometimes be quicker though - is it the case, as posts above seem to suggest, that arrangements for an assisting loco weren't even started to be made until the fitter had finally fought his way to site? Clearing the line ought to be a priority, even if the quickest way of doing so means dragging something out of the section that could possibly be fixed, given a little more time. Getting the assistance in needn't be complicated, provided that there's a way around everything else that'll be standing by now - but a lack of local knowledge in Control might make it so. How about single line working around a failure to at least keep a service running? Obviously not possible on a single line railway such as this, but generally the loss of competencies that might be required (Pilotman being an obvious example) doesn't help when it is a possibility.

It's not just the railway though!

But it just wont happen until all other options have been absolutely exhausted or until it becomes cheaper than paying out for the delay minutes!

It should happen but we all know it doesn't UNLESS there is no option or there is a dedicated fleet of rescue locos available already paid for by the T/FOC/NR

 

[transmanche]

But it just wont happen until all other options have been absolutely exhausted or until it becomes cheaper than paying out for the delay minutes!

It should happen but we all know it doesn't UNLESS there is no option or there is a dedicated fleet of rescue locos available already paid for by the T/FOC/NR

Maybe Network Rail need to organise a railway version of the AA/RAC, with the costs built-in to the track access charge. With clearing the line being the priority, so rescue locos might be despatched earlier than seem to be at present.

 

[khib70]

I appreciate what you are saying - and I have no doubt that some people work very hard in trying to get the service restored.

But if you look at it from the customer's point of view, if they feel it is a fiasco, then they're entitled to say so. And they might also say that rail staff are paid to work hard at restoring the service - that it's their job.

It's not right if people shout abuse when someone is working hard to restore the service. But, as far as the average customer is concerned, they don't care how the service is restored - so long as it is restored and they are kept informed. It's unfortunate that in today's railway it seems that the man or woman on the front line is often kept in the dark as much as the passengers.

Precisely

And no one was criticising the staff on the ground. This was the failure of a corporate body to provide the service passengers pay for. They were thus failing their paying customers as well as their own staff.

I know that the prevailing attitude on this forum is that the railway is never responsible for anything that happens on it, all reports unfavourable to the railway are the work of mendacious anti-rail journalists and that passengers should basically shut up and take their medicine.

I also know that anyone objecting to the above attitude is liable to attract a barrage of smug sarcasm from the same two or three people every time.

This may not have been a farce, but it fits the definition of "fiasco" pretty well. And saying that doesn't remotely imply criticism of anyone at the sharp end. It is what it is.