Wonderfully offensive article in the Torygraph

[CosherB]

They "pay the wages" of the person representing the Company, if only the Company would show this rather than their name on the payslip, the employee would know this.

OT, most of your ranty post, but especially the paragraph above, demonstrates a mindset which is unfortunately common in the UK public services. It persists among some railway staff, despite privatisation, and has its roots deep in old BR thinking. Those providing the service have lost the notion (if they ever had it) that they are there to serve the customer. They are not there for ANY other eason.

It is axiomatic that the customer pays anyone's wages! No customers, no company, so no job. In fact it's harsher than that outside the cosy world of the railway; fewer customers (they go to your competitors instead), company gets weaker or goes bust, no job.

It's an old joke that custmers get in the way of those trying to run a railway. I think every person with that mindset should spend a few years in private industry, just to give them a dose of how the world really works!

 

[Clip]

Because sometimes, he doesn't know anything! And that's generally because people will start asking *immediately* there's an incident.
I work at a station and often, because I've been doing something else and not staring at the departure boards, the first I'll know about a problem is when someone says 'Why is the 12:25 cancelled?'

If thats the case then you tell them that you will find out for them. And then you go and find out.

Nine times out of ten, I don't get asked "what's happening?", as they don't care, as other posters have said on this thread and passengers say to my face, that's the railways problem, not theirs.

To repeat (again), what gets asked over and over again is "What time?"

I see nothing wrong with saying "I don't know", if it's the truth. You obviously do see something wrong with that.

So, as you are the customer and therefore are always right, I have to accept your view.

Now I have agreed with you, can you go away and annoy someone else?

so you tell them that "At this present time we do not have a set time but as soon as i find out i shall let you know"


All this to me is your basic and standard customer service - yes you may not know but you let them know that you will endeavour to find out and will inform them when you have any further information. And then if you dont you repeat what you have just said a bit later with the fact that you have no update on the previous message but that as soon as you do you will let them know.



If you think telling them that you dont know and your not even going to be arsed to find out - thats fine, Just dont moan when people who were quote in the OP then go off on one because you havent even bothered to find out even just a small bit of information.

 

[Ferret]

OT, most of your ranty post, but especially the paragraph above, demonstrates a mindset which is unfortunately common in the UK public services. It persists among some railway staff, despite privatisation, and has its roots deep in old BR thinking. Those providing the service have lost the notion (if they ever had it) that they are there to serve the customer. They are not there for ANY other eason.

It is axiomatic that the customer pays anyone's wages! No customers, no company, so no job. In fact it's harsher than that outside the cosy world of the railway; fewer customers (they go to your competitors instead), company gets weaker or goes bust, no job.

It's an old joke that custmers get in the way of those trying to run a railway. I think every person with that mindset should spend a few years in private industry, just to give them a dose of how the world really works!

Actually, Old Timer's post was spot on - which is probably why you felt the need to reply to it...........

We live in a world where it's preached that the customer is always right - but yet a significant number of them go out of their way to disprove the mantra! I've lost count of the times I've announced over the PA 'sorry we are going to be delayed here, I'm waiting for further information but as yet I don't know how long the delay will be', only to walk through the train immediately after and be accosted by somebody who finds listening to and understanding what I've just said to be an insurmountable challenge, before going on to berate me because I don't know how long we're going to be delayed.

I do love it how the armchair experts out there with no experience of how the industry works come on here and pontificate - if you're that passionate about it, can I invite you all to apply for a job and come and join us?

 

[Clip]

Actually, Old Timer's post was spot on - which is probably why you felt the need to reply to it...........

We live in a world where it's preached that the customer is always right - but yet a significant number of them go out of their way to disprove the mantra! I've lost count of the times I've announced over the PA 'sorry we are going to be delayed here, I'm waiting for further information but as yet I don't know how long the delay will be', only to walk through the train immediately after and be berated by somebody who finds listening to and understanding what I've just said to be an insurmountable challenge, before going on to berate me because I don't know how long we're going to be delayed.

I do love it how the armchair experts out there with no experience of how the industry works come on here and pontificate - if you're that passionate about it, can I invite you all to apply for a job and come and join us?

Fantastic. We are now armchair experts with no idea of how the industry works.

Cheers for that..

 

[Ferret]

Fantastic. We are now armchair experts with no idea of how the industry works.

Cheers for that..

It's only as patronising as the posts from yourself and Clip. Not so nice when the shoe is on the other foot is it?

 

[Clip]

It's only as patronising as the posts from yourself and Clip. Not so nice when the shoe is on the other foot is it?

I dont believe i have been patronising at all ferret. What i am saying is that even though you may only hold a small bit of information it is far better to present that information to people over and over again rather then saying 'I dont know'.

I've lost count of the times I've announced over the PA 'sorry we are going to be delayed here, I'm waiting for further information but as yet I don't know how long the delay will be', only to walk through the train immediately after and be accosted by somebody who finds listening to and understanding what I've just said to be an insurmountable challenge, before going on to berate me because I don't know how long we're going to be delayed.

Not everyone will be listening for announcements and so by walking through the train is it really that much of an effort to repeat the above and even if they do get back and say why dont you know you can tell them ' Because i have not been informed' or anything else whilst gritting your teeth and smiling.

Ive lost count the amount of times when i was repeating the same thing over and over to people when i used to work on the concourse at KX during disruption. Pain in the arse but there you go. Your the face of your company and the railway as a whole and as i said before if your not showing that may or may not know what your on about your going to get articles like that in the OP.

Im going to leave this one now because its going round in circles and there is no point anymore.. Ill get back to my armchair

 

[Ferret]

Clip - you've hit on a problem there - some crew don't bother announcing anything *because* they know people don't listen! Not that I'm defending crew for that, but it does happen!

 

[Old Timer]

OT, most of your ranty post, but especially the paragraph above, demonstrates a mindset which is unfortunately common in the UK public services. It persists among some railway staff, despite privatisation, and has its roots deep in old BR thinking. Those providing the service have lost the notion (if they ever had it) that they are there to serve the customer. They are not there for ANY other eason.

It is axiomatic that the customer pays anyone's wages! No customers, no company, so no job. In fact it's harsher than that outside the cosy world of the railway; fewer customers (they go to your competitors instead), company gets weaker or goes bust, no job.

It's an old joke that custmers get in the way of those trying to run a railway. I think every person with that mindset should spend a few years in private industry, just to give them a dose of how the world really works!

It is a two way street, old chap.

All Railwaymen know that the passenger pays their wages, however this does not confer upon the passenger the right to disregard terms and conditions of ticket issue, or to berate or abuse or assault staff just because what the staff are telling them does not accord with the "wants" of the passenger. The axiom that the "customer is always right" continues to be incorrectly expounded. Ford ACTUALLY said the the customer is always right in their choice of colour, he never said the customer was ALWAYS right in everything in fact this was an anathema to Ford himself who had very firm views upon this.

Providing a customer service means that the staff provide the service for which the public have paid. There continues to be this belief that if you refuse anyone's unreasonable demands that you are then not satisfying the customers needs. This is complete bunkem but persists in the Railway indsutry as a fall back from the belief everyone had that thye could run the Railways better and that because BR was a public sector organisation that people could get whatever they wished.

Customer service does not mean you can have a free replacement ticket for which you have lost (or so you claim). It also does not entitle you to travel First Class for free when it suits of if you chose to travel at busy times.

Satisfying "customer service" also does not mean that Railway staff have to pander to the unreasonable demands and whims of every passenger.

Assuming I recall correctly that you are in the airline Industry in the left hand seat, I am sure you can recognise that much I say is valid. I doubt your Company will pander to every demand made by its passengers, and for example I know of no airline that will ignore a higher fare excess when you change your travel arrangements, something that you see big arguments about at Checkin desks.

Possibly you never ever go near them ?

As the Railways have been Privatised for 17 odd years now, there are few of the old BR school around. WE have worked in the Private Sector since 1994, and people such as myself who regularly now deal with Contracts management are very familiar with "Customers" and how to satisfy their needs and wants.

 

[blacknight]

OT, most of your ranty post, but especially the paragraph above, demonstrates a mindset which is unfortunately common in the UK public services. It persists among some railway staff, despite privatisation, and has its roots deep in old BR thinking. Those providing the service have lost the notion (if they ever had it) that they are there to serve the customer. They are not there for ANY other eason.

Pardon me for speaking but just for a second forget all that customer service cr@p the reason I am there is to ensure safe operation of railway on my patch. I carry passengers & as passengers you sometimes have to do as instructed ie dont detrain cause you think its your right as a customer to do so.
I will interact with my passengers & in disruption attempt to do job to best of my ability with information provided but remember respect is mutually earned act like a toddler & dont be suprised to be sent to the naughty step.

 

[CosherB]

I will interact with my passengers & in disruption attempt to do job to best of my ability with information provided but remember respect is mutually earned act like a toddler & dont be suprised to be sent to the naughty step.

Oh dear. Customer service must be a foreign country to you; one that's full of big bitey monsters and horrid stingy things - a place where you therefore never go.

OT - customer service has nothing to do with allowing passengers to travel without a valid ticket, or to allow them free upgrades to 1st just because they demand it, or to condone any 'unreasonable' behavoir by them. It is simply about valuing them as people to whom you are contracted to give a service; to deliver what you are contractually bound to do, and then to go a bit further in doing all you reasonably can to make their experience under your care as pleasant and hassle-free as you can reasonably make it.

Note there is no black and white definintion of 'reasonable'. That is where one's skill to give good customer service is tested. One extreme would be to do absolutely nothing beyond your legal requirement to them; the other extreme would be to pander to their every whim. Obviously, the provision of good service lies somewhere between those two extremes, and the skill of good service provision is to strike the correct balance.

 

[Old Timer]

..OT - customer service has nothing to do with allowing passengers to travel without a valid ticket, or to allow them free upgrades to 1st just because they demand it, or to condone any 'unreasonable' behavoir by them. It is simply about valuing them as people to whom you are contracted to give a service; to deliver what you are contractually bound to do, and then to go a bit further in doing all you reasonably can to make their experience under your care as pleasant and hassle-free as you can reasonably make it.

Note there is no black and white definintion of 'reasonable'. That is where one's skill to give good customer service is tested. One extreme would be to do absolutely nothing beyond your legal requirement to them; the other extreme would be to pander to their every whim. Obviously, the provision of good service lies between those two extremes.

I fail to see why you consider me to be customer unfriendly ?

I have never spoken about the normal passengers. The posts I have made are in consideration of those who are far from normal. These by virtue tend to be more vocal and are the first to complain about perceived rights, which is what my earlier post was commenting on.

The normal passenger is no problem to anyone and at least try to understand when things go wrong in my experience.

In the past I have moved heaven and earth, as I know all right thinking Railway staff would also do, to assist genuine passengers when they have experienced troubles en route.

I spent some considerable time a couple of years back trying to assist a grouop of passengers who had become "trapped" at a station by the failure of the booked bus service to appear duirng engineering work, to the extent of speaking to the TOC Control and almost ending up driving them to the next interchange point in my own car in the middle of the night.

Sadly many on here who have not experienced troublesome passengers on the Railway chose to pontificate as to how Railway staff should behave from the comfort of an armchair. Those who have been in the front line know that there is a country mile between theory and practice when dealing with those types of people.

"Customer service" is not acceeding to their demands but is providing the service which they have purchased in as best a way as one can.

 

[Clip]

I fail to see why you consider me to be customer unfriendly ?

I have never spoken about the normal passengers. The posts I have made are in consideration of those who are far from normal. These by virtue tend to be more vocal and are the first to complain about perceived rights, which is what my earlier post was commenting on.

The normal passenger is no problem to anyone and at least try to understand when things go wrong in my experience.

In the past I have moved heaven and earth, as I know all right thinking Railway staff would also do, to assist genuine passengers when they have experienced troubles en route.

I spent some considerable time a couple of years back trying to assist a grouop of passengers who had become "trapped" at a station by the failure of the booked bus service to appear duirng engineering work, to the extent of speaking to the TOC Control and almost ending up driving them to the next interchange point in my own car in the middle of the night.

Sadly many on here who have not experienced troublesome passengers on the Railway chose to pontificate as to how Railway staff should behave from the comfort of an armchair. Those who have been in the front line know that there is a country mile between theory and practice when dealing with those types of people.

"Customer service" is not acceeding to their demands but is providing the service which they have purchased in as best a way as one can.

Been on the front line and dealt with all the **** that goes with it. Yet i will still say that telling people 'I dont know' is wrong.

 

[CosherB]

Sometimes customer service can be a difficult call. My wife and I were returning from London on a Wrexham & Shropshire service earlier this year enjoying their excellent 1st class service. At the next table were a very elderley pair of old-time aristocrats, man and wife, apparently returning to their country pile on the Welsh Borders. Like folk of their type and age, they were completely devoid of any self-conciousness. They perused the lunch menu:

"I think I'll have the chicken", said the wife to her husband.

"What dear? The chicken? You know you don't like chicken!"

"Oh do stop fussing! What are you having?"

And so on. It was absolutely delightful to listen to them. A real couple of characters, a throw-back from the early years of the last century, but in the nicest possible way.

The TM came round checking tickets. They had seemingly booked with senior rail cards, but he didn't have his with him. "I'm 98, y'know! I'm doing well if I can remember to put me trousers on these days. Must have left the bally card card at home. Awfully sorry". The TM explained that strictly speaking their tickets were only valid with the SRC. But he let him off.

When he came to us, I congratulated him on his handling of the situation. "I really should have charged him full fare according to the book, and he could actually be trying it on, but I think he'd genuinely forgotten the card" said the TM. I agreed (producing my SRC!) that it was a difficult call, but I also thought he'd judged it correctly, that the old guy was simply absent-minded and almost certainly did have a SRC at home.

Good customer service sometimes calls for well developed 'people-reading' skills!

 

[blacknight]

Oh dear. Customer service must be a foreign country to you; one that's full of big bitey monsters and horrid stingy things - a place where you therefore never go.

Looks like you are acting like a toddler off to the naughty corner Captain

 

[Flamingo]

If thats the case then you tell them that you will find out for them. And then you go and find out.
so you tell them that "At this present time we do not have a set time but as soon as i find out i shall let you know"
All this to me is your basic and standard customer service - yes you may not know but you let them know that you will endeavour to find out and will inform them when you have any further information. And then if you dont you repeat what you have just said a bit later with the fact that you have no update on the previous message but that as soon as you do you will let them know.
If you think telling them that you dont know and your not even going to be arsed to find out - thats fine, Just dont moan when people who were quote in the OP then go off on one because you havent even bothered to find out even just a small bit of information.

Making a lot of assumptions there, aren't you?
1. Who said if I do know anything that I don't tell them what I do know?
2. Who said I won't try to find out information?
3. Who said that the information is there to find out?

There are scenarios where (however you phrase it), the summary of the answer is "I don't know". It might be "I don't know, ask X", but I don't feel I have to know the answer to every question on the railway, just that I have to know how to find out in an appropriate time-scale, or where to refer someone to for the answer. If you want to wrap it up in something more longwinded and imagine that that somehow makes you an expert in customer service, by all means do so.

Whatever anybodies personal insecurities are that mean they can't admit they don't know everything, they shouldn't believe that verbal gymnastics disguise the fact that they don't know the answer.

Personally, I believe that people appreciate honesty when there is disruption, but a proportion of people can't handle anything not going 100% right, and it always has to be someone's fault that they can complain about. Pandering to them can often mean failing to find the vulnerable passengers that really do need help but are not so vocal about raising their concerns (and I can give examples).

 

[blacknight]

Correct answer as to when train moves forward is always when signal shows a proceed aspect no need for a time estimate to be given end of debate. Do people honestly expect an instant phone call to a busy signaller to be made because passenger wants to see some action being taken. If answer is yes I would make call to empty office let it ring & when unanswered state they must be busy to take the call.

 

[Failed Unit]

There are times when the how long is a piece of string question is useful to the passenger who isn't wanting an exact answer.

When is the next train to x? At least 1 hour. Ok I will get the bus, drive whatever. 15 mins? I will wait. I know with a failure you honestly don't know but the passenger is often asking to evaluate other options.

 

[Flamingo]

True, and in those circumstances it's worth giving any answer, even if negative, as in "I'd guess not before X"

 

[CosherB]

There are times when the how long is a piece of string question is useful to the passenger who isn't wanting an exact answer.

When is the next train to x? At least 1 hour. Ok I will get the bus, drive whatever. 15 mins? I will wait. I know with a failure you honestly don't know but the passenger is often asking to evaluate other options.

Exactly. As in the case I quoted above about the Tube driver at Kings Cross, he didn't know how long it would take to clear the broken down train, but he knew from experience that 'it would be a while'.

That enabled us to make the instant descision to get off the train and walk. If the driver hadn't made the announcement, we'd have sat there frustrated that the train for some reason wasn't starting, and not wanting to get off as it might (as far as we knew) set off at any moment.

As soon as we knew the situation, even though the driver had no idea if the delay would be 15 minutes or several hours, we knew what to do!

 

[blacknight]

True, and in those circumstances it's worth giving any answer, even if negative, as in "I'd guess not before X"

I would rather say I honesty dont know rather than taking a guess at X, if passenger cannot handle the truth so be it. What happens if passenger takes figure X as a definite answer to length of delay, they will soon be back at you if train goes without them or delay gets longer than estimate.

 

[Flamingo]

I didn't mean to mislead them or get rid of them, more of the "well, it usually takes at least an hour to sort this kind of thing, but it might be longer". If they know it will take at least X, then they might decide to do something else (go for a massage, have a manicure, haircut, take in a movie!)

 

[CarterUSM]

Been on the front line and dealt with all the **** that goes with it. Yet i will still say that telling people 'I dont know' is wrong.

Even if you genuinely don't know? I 've said it many a time, though with the addendum that i'm working on finding out. Though yes, there are poor staff out there, and yes, poor passengers also. OT's post about the worst of passengers was spot on, and unfortunately they seem to be increasing in number on my patch, though i do pride myself on providing the best and most informative service i can per my role. " Do you know how much i earn?" and "you should be ashamed of yourself" are two of the most perplexing replies to my announcement of terminating a service due to a points failure a few weeks ago, though the vast majority were of course satisfied with that and the alternative travel arrangements, i've said it many times, even when you give ALL the information you have, some will not be satisfied with that whatsoever . You'd have thought by some of their reactions you had just slapped their granny. Anyway, that is just the way things are, and i don't expect it to change anytime soon , in 10 years there will still be communication issues and the like, partly because some passengers don't like what they are being told, and partly because some staff just don't or won't communicate , thugh mainly due to the amount of factors Metroland et al succinctly pointed out previously . But i'd be all day explaining that over the P.A.

 

[Flamingo]

But i'd be all day explaining that over the P.A.

And then you'd be slagged off in the "why are there so many announcements" threads...

 

[EM2]

If thats the case then you tell them that you will find out for them. And then you go and find out.

Ah! That *is* what I do. But the first answer has to be 'I'm sorry, I don't know'. *Then* you say 'I'll find out'.
Because in the first seconds, straight after a cancellation, or a delay, the truthful answer is 'I don't know'.
You've been on a packed concourse at KGX, with no trains moving and you've *never* said 'I don't know' or a variation thereof?

 

[O L Leigh]

Been on the front line and dealt with all the **** that goes with it. Yet i will still say that telling people 'I dont know' is wrong.

So what answer do you give during disruption when a passenger asks you how long it will be before things get moving again?

To me THIS is the crux of the situation. Yes a little information is better than no information, and that's precisely what I do, but there are circumstances where you can't say anything other than "I don't know". It was a situation I found myself in last night when we had problems and a passenger was repeatedly asking me when and where the train to X was. All I could tell him was that it wasn't at Liv St and to listen for an announcement because it was all so far gone and I didn't know when the next train was getting in.

O L Leigh

 

[Metroland]

It's a very theoretical discussion this one.

I tend to agree that hard lines on 'doing things by the book', is not always good business practice. The complexity of tickets means that some people, especially those that don't use trains very much, are likely to make genuine mistakes. Some of the announcements about CCTV and penalty fares make my toes curl. I don't especially like ticket barriers either.

On the flip side, there is a hard core that 'play the system' or don't know the first thing about manners or politeness themselves. Because they have paid a fare (or even not paid) they think it gives them a god given right to speak to people how they want.

I was on a late evening train on Tuesday from Leicester to Loughborough, and it became apparent that two 'twenty somethings' were riding the trains on a regular basis without paying. They were quite capable of playing the system and after giving the Guard some initial abuse, and being threatened with the police, decided to lay it on thick and pretend they were stupid and very upset. They jumped over the barriers at the other end.

On the subject of information, the biggest complaint seems to be the chaos that ensues at times, especially after disruption. I don't think they are any easy answers to this. Online is certainly a good thing, as are announcements and so on. It's certainly a good idea to give information, but as it's been pointed out wrong information (because plans change) or poor estimates can in practice get people's backs up even more, especially if they change their plans because of initial information and have to change again.

On the general sort of PR thing, to an extent transport is a business at times you will get unhappy customers. It's a product that is subject to alteration and change by the nature of it, has no shelf life and its very hard to match supply and demand at times. It's also affected by things outside the various companies control.

I fully take the point the railways case is not helped by frequent strikes, and the jobsworths which do inhabit some jobs from time-to-time. Give some people power, and they make the most of it! Having said that, the recruitment these days of (especially) customer facing staff is an extremely strict process, and over time, most of the bad apples should be rooted out. (hopefully)

In short though, you will never get any sort of panacea, that's not the nature of transport or any sort of human experience, and it's certainly not as easy as it's being made out in the pages above and I don't think 'railwaymen don't give a stuff' is entirely fair or realistic appraisal, it's not nearly so black and white.

 

[Old Timer]

..Having said that, the recruitment these days of (especially) customer facing staff is an extremely strict process, and over time, most of the bad apples should be rooted out. (hopefully).

Bad apples were very rarely tolerated under BR.

It is not simply a case that there ARE bad apples as you put it. Many good staff become fed up with handling the sorts of attitudes that have been discussed on here day in and day out. No-one comes to work to be abused on a regular basis, and no doubt at some point the Trade Unions will wake up to the fact that it is actually a HASAW issue for which staff may well be able to sue for damages.

I would be interested to see the various armchair warriors (from which I exclude you unless you feel it fits) spend say one or two years dealing with unreasonable passengers, and then see what their views are then.

Having been in a passenger facing role for a number of years and in several roles during that time, I moved out because I got fed up of the abuse and was not prepared to work in that environment simply because I was finding it harder and harder to hold back from telling some of them a few home truths.

I admire greatly the staff whose constitution allows them to let that simply flow off their shoulders. I also understand the pressures that staff face and which cause them to lose the self control with people, either in a small way or in a larger way. I doubt any of these staff started off as "bad apples", but were simply created from the interaction with impossible passengers.

 

[Clip]

Ah! That *is* what I do. But the first answer has to be 'I'm sorry, I don't know'. *Then* you say 'I'll find out'.
Because in the first seconds, straight after a cancellation, or a delay, the truthful answer is 'I don't know'.
You've been on a packed concourse at KGX, with no trains moving and you've *never* said 'I don't know' or a variation thereof?

For all their faults(and this is a reply to many above) Railtrack/Nr were very good at training their staff in customer service and in how to word things correctly.

Instead of 'I dont know' You must use different words to avoid the conflict which comes with saying 'I dont know'.

Ive said some of them earlier in this thread such things that you were told to say. Yes it gets very tiresome yes you may actually wonder what is coming out of yoru mouth but if there is a cancellation you will probably know why and give them alternatives. If there are delays you let them know that at the present time there is nothing moving and until the problem is corrected we do not have a definitive time to when things will get moving again but as soon as we know we will let you know.

Even announcing during disruptions you just utter the same thing time and time again but we were always told never to say 'I dont know' because it sounds wrong. And i still think it is.

And since i moved out of that role and further up the ladder i now try and emphasise this to my staff too. Though im always out on which ever station i may be visiting and will deal with the passengers there too.

 

[EM2]

In my experience, people would rather hear 'I'm afraid I don't know but will try and find out' rather than 'I'm sorry but I don't have that information just now, but will try and find out', because they think that the latter sounds pompous and arrogant.

 

[Fred26]

In my experience, people would rather hear 'I'm afraid I don't know but will try and find out' rather than 'I'm sorry but I don't have that information just now, but will try and find out', because they think that the latter sounds pompous and arrogant.

Yep. There's nothing wrong with 'I don't know' at all. I had the problem last week where, despite numerous attempts to get hold of Control, it was a no-go. I therefore had no information for the passengers on my platform. Sometimes information is just not forthcoming. Several times recently I have announced when the next train to X is going to be and then it hasn't left it's origin station, so I then had to presume that it was cancelled as I couldn't speak to Control. When I haven't got any information it makes me look an idiot and it makes the company look really unprofessional, but if I haven't got any information to give out, that's the end of it.