Won appeal but still owe money

[ThePianoDentis]

Going to keep this short this time as somehow it failed when i first made the thread.

This was with south eastern trains

I don't have a videophone or anything to take videos myself, so to get my appeal properly done I didn't send it off until 14 days after I got the penalty fare. (also needed it to be light when i took video so could only do at weekends)

Anywayon 4th december they sent me a letter charging me £20 for not having paid. Then on 5th December they emailed me saying my appeal was successful and I did not have to pay the £17 penalty I owed.

Also I received no correspondence beforehand warning or reminding me I needed to pay, first letter I got was £20 fine.

Seems a bit bull**** to me, but it does state appeal process is independent of paying the fine.

Therefore is there anything I can do about this?

Why say you have 21 days to appeal, when you actually don't? You have maybe 1 week tops.

 

[RJ]

Going to keep this short this time as somehow it failed when i first made the thread.

This was with south eastern trains

I don't have a videophone or anything to take videos myself, so to get my appeal properly done I didn't send it off until 14 days after I got the penalty fare. (also needed it to be light when i took video so could only do at weekends)

Anywayon 4th december they sent me a letter charging me £20 for not having paid. Then on 5th December they emailed me saying my appeal was successful and I did not have to pay the £17 penalty I owed.

Also I received no correspondence beforehand warning or reminding me I needed to pay, first letter I got was £20 fine.

Seems a bit bull**** to me, but it does state appeal process is independent of paying the fine.

Therefore is there anything I can do about this?

Why say you have 21 days to appeal, when you actually don't? You have maybe 1 week tops.

You have 21 days to appeal. The reminder from the RPSS is generated on the 22nd day. I presume the appeals body may leave a few days grace to allow for postal delays if the appeal doesn't reach them within 21 days. Moral of the story is to either avoid leaving it until the 11th hour to appeal, or send by recorded delivery then challenge them if you can prove the appeal was delivered to them by the deadline.

 

[island]

If you're given a Penalty Fare, you are not given a further reminder about not paying as it would only cause confusion and administrative overhead.

I assume your (ultimately successful) appeal crossed the letter levying an increased admin charge in the post and if the appeal is successful then it cannot make sense for the admin charge to not be waived as well.

 

[jkdd77]

My (unqualified) understanding is that, if the PF is cancelled, any outstanding fare paid, the matter of the fare/ alleged ticketless travel formally declared to be closed, and no other criminal wrongdoing alleged, then non-payment of the so-called 'admin fee' is purely a civil matter, and would not lead to prosecution.

Normally, non-payment of a PF leads to cancellation of the PF and prosecution by the TOC in relation to the original incident for either ticketless travel under byelaws or fare evasion under the RRA, such that payment is effectively 'encouraged' by the overwhelming likelihood of prosecution for non-payment. However, in a case where the PF has been cancelled, no fare is due, and no wrongdoing alleged, I don't believe this is a realistic threat.

I believe there was a case on the CAG forums (which I can't immediately find) where a person in the OP's position (having succeeded with an appeal against a PF, with no outstanding fare due at all, and with the relevant TOC having formally accepted that the matter was closed) simply ignored the ever-increasing demands for money and was never taken to any form of court, be it magistrates or county. This may well be a option for the OP.

I don't believe that the mere act of appealing constitutes a contractual obligation to pay for the administration fees allegedly incurred, all the more so since the appeals process is supposed to be free to the traveller, and the alleged obligation to pay such a fee was not made clear at the time of appealing.

Furthermore, the OP may be able to rely on section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 to create a rebuttable presumption of delivery two working days after first-class postage.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The admin fee has nothing to do with the appeal, although given SouthEastern, RPSS and IPFAS all share an office, it is easy to jump to this conclusion.

The rules are that if you do not pay your penalty fare within 21 days, you will be charged an administration fee by RPSS. You did not pay your penalty fare within 21 days, therefore you were charged an administration fee.

Your penalty fare was subsequently cancelled, but technically the obligation to pay the administration fee still stands. You were supposed to pay the penalty fare and get a refund if your appeal was successful (which it was).

I'd write back to RPSS (prop: SouthEastern) telling them that IPFAS (prop: SouthEastern) cancelled your SouthEastern (prop: SouthEastern) penalty fare and therefore you expect the administration fee will also be cancelled. If they don't agree, you might want to write to your local newspaper, most of whom like these sorts of stories.

Given that RPSS and IPFAS are the same sodding company, you'd think they'd be able to sort this out.

 

[redbutton]

But surely an appeal being accepted is an acknowledgement that the PF should never have been issued, and thus should never have reached the 21-day threshold?

 

[jkdd77]

I don't think there is any realistic chance of Southeastern (in any of their guises) suing over the alleged debt of £20, and I can find no rule that specifically says that failure to pay will lead to a contractually binding obligation to pay £20.

There is nothing made clear at the time of issue of the PF that £20 is contractually due in the case of late payment (bearing in mind that appealing against a PF is supposed to be free), nor is there anything to suggest that this truly constitutes a reasonanble pre-estimate of losses.

Personally, I'd be inclined to write denying that the alleged debt is due, and then to see what happens next.

 

[Tetchytyke]

IPFAS' website makes it clear you're supposed to pay and then get a refund if the appeal is successful.

https://www.penaltyfares.co.uk/static/faq.aspx?from=7

One thing I've picked up on since reading the thread again, though: how did the OP get a penalty fare for £17? The PF is £20 or twice the single ticket for the journey made, whichever is more.

 

[jkdd77]

Perhaps the OP made part payment of the PF at the time of being stopped (and, if payment of at least the full single fare (perhaps £3?) was made and accepted at the time, that would seem to eliminate any realistic possibility of prosecution, given that the PF has now been cancelled).

I don't see that a line in the online FAQs, which were presumably not given out at the time of issue, can be said to create any form of statutory or contractual obligation to pay.

 

[LateThanNever]

I don't see that a line in the online FAQs, which were presumably not given out at the time of issue, can be said to create any form of statutory or contractual obligation to pay.

Quite.
If they persist in trying to collect the charge sending them an invoice for your time and inconvenience often prevents further hassle - ideally the figure should be similar to - or just a bit higher than theirs!