Wmt short journey fraud suspicion

[tankthomas]

Hi,

I got this email asking from them.

What should I do. They are just asking about this incident right?

Apparently a rail ticket after you got of the train, even a anytime ticket they say isn't valid. Which to me isn't clear that it wasn't a valid ticket

But I'd rather say I learn my lesson and just end it with a penalty.

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on ## ## #### when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket that was not valid for the journey you had completed, possibly committing short journey fraud.
Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.
At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi,

I got this email asking from them.

What should I do. They are just asking about this incident right?

Apparently a rail ticket after you got of the train, even a anytime ticket they say isn't valid. Which to me isn't clear that it wasn't a valid ticket

But I'd rather say I learn my lesson and just end it with a penalty.

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on ## ## #### when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket that was not valid for the journey you had completed, possibly committing short journey fraud.
Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.
At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.

Welcome to the forum.

As you say, this letter is only asking about the current incident - so that is all you need to talk about when you reply to them. But you do need to bear in mind that
- if there have been previous occurrences when you fare dodged, there's nothing to stop the railway coming back to you to look at those, and
- it's important not to lie in your response: so if there have been previous occurrences, don't say in your reply about this incident 'I have never done this before'.

I'm not quite clear what you mean by

Apparently a rail ticket after you got of the train, even a anytime ticket they say isn't valid. Which to me isn't clear that it wasn't a valid ticket

Could you expand a little bit? It sounds to me as if your train journey was something like A to C, passing through B - and you only bought a ticket from B to C. If that's the case, then you didn't have a ticket for your whole journey, and I can't think of any reason why the railway couldn't chase you for that.

(Edited to strike through where I have changed my mind - see post #15 below)

 

[tankthomas]

Ok so I'll have to trall through and find the ticket.

Then it's a short journey not the full.

How can I word my response after attaching the journey to say that I am genuinely remorseful and will pay the penalty.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I got this email asking from them.

What should I do. They are just asking about this incident right?

Apparently a rail ticket after you got of the train, even a anytime ticket they say isn't valid. Which to me isn't clear that it wasn't a valid ticket

But I'd rather say I learn my lesson and just end it with a penalty.

We have recently been handed a file relating to an incident on ## ## #### when approached by staff carrying out their revenue duties, you were asked to show your valid ticket you offered a ticket that was not valid for the journey you had completed, possibly committing short journey fraud.
Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.
At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated.

There are times when 'Anytime' tickets are not valid if they have been bought with a railcard discount (confusingly....) - if that is what has happened perhaps.

But it would help if you can answer / give info as stated here in this link for as many of the questions as are relevant - then people can advise you what has gone wrong and how best to reply to the e-mail you have received.

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[signed]

They are just asking about this incident right?

No, they aren't, they have reviewed your online purchase history

including a review of the ticket records

 

[tankthomas]

There are times when 'Anytime' tickets are not valid if they have been bought with a railcard discount (confusingly....) - if that is what has happened perhaps.

But it would help if you can answer / give info as stated here in this link for as many of the questions as are relevant - then people can advise you what has gone wrong and how best to reply to the e-mail you have received.

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

www.railforums.co.uk

I bought the right anytime ticket after getting off the stop.

 

[AlterEgo]

Hi,

I got this email asking from them.

What should I do. They are just asking about this incident right?

Apparently a rail ticket after you got of the train, even a anytime ticket they say isn't valid. Which to me isn't clear that it wasn't a valid ticket

But I'd rather say I learn my lesson and just end it with a penalty.

None of this makes sense. What actually happened? Note that their corespondence explicitly says they have looked at your previous ticket purchases.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Apparently a rail ticket after you got of the train, even a anytime ticket they say isn't valid. Which to me isn't clear that it wasn't a valid ticket

@tankthomas. Welcome to the forum. Did you perhaps buy a ticket on the platform at the destination station, in order to try to get through the end station's automated barriers, or past a revenue protection blockade?

Unfortunately, a ticket purchased after boarding your first train and then travelling isn't normally considered valid as you should have bought it before boarding/travelling.

 

[tankthomas]

Ok is there a draft to say in sorry, won't do it again and willing to pay the penalty plus admin costs to settle the matter

 

[WesternLancer]

I bought the right anytime ticket after getting off the stop.

Was that when you saw ticket checkers were inspecting tickets?

That is often seen as ‘pay when challenged’ type of evasion.

The rules are ‘buy before you board’ apart from in rare circumstances which we can’t advise on without knowing the station you got on the train at the start of your journey.

 

[johnny_t]

Your posts aren't that clear but is it correct to say that:

a) You bought your ticket after you got off the train (possibly on seeing the ticket inspectors) ?

b) The ticket you bought wasn't for the whole journey that you had just made

If that is the case (or, if even one of them is the case), then No, of course that isn't valid. You probably need to switch the tone of any correspondence with them to being a lot more contrite, rather than making it sound like you've been caught out on a technicality that you want to make go away.

 

[WesternLancer]

Ok is there a draft to say in sorry, won't do it again and willing to pay the penalty plus admin costs to settle the matter

There are plenty of examples of those replies on other threads that show you the general format. If you use your own words people here will check your draft.

 

[tankthomas]

Ok.

So I will attach the ticket in question and say:

I apologise for my bad judgement and promise to not do this again.

I'm probably neurodivergent not that it's an excuse at all.

I would be willing to pay the fine plus admin fee as I am genuinely remorseful and I would be grateful if this can be settled amicably without the need to go to court which would be in the interests of all parties.

But over to you experts

 

[John R]

I would be willing to pay the fine plus admin fee as I am genuinely remorseful and I would be grateful if this can be settled amicably without the need to go to court which would be in the interests of all parties.

I wouldn't use words like "I would be willing to". It suggests it's up to you, which bluntly it isn't. You either will or they will prosecute you.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

They are just asking about this incident right?

No, they aren't, they have reviewed your online purchase history

For clarity, I now think I agree with this - I will strike through what might be misleading in my earlier post.

 

[johnny_t]

Ok.

So I will attach the ticket in question and say:

I apologise for my bad judgement and promise to not do this again.

I'm probably neurodivergent not that it's an excuse at all.

I would be willing to pay the fine plus admin fee as I am genuinely remorseful and I would be grateful if this can be settled amicably without the need to go to court which would be in the interests of all parties.

But over to you experts

Personal opinion, but as a weary old Gen X-er, any mention of neurodivergency will just get me rolling my eyes, and there's a high possibility that whoever reads the letter will be a weary old Gen X-er too, so I would leave that out.

Other people will advise better on the content, but its not entirely clear that you realise that you have been fare-dodging (or, at least, it sounds like you have based on a few assumptions about what went on) and not to do it in future.

One key point, though, is whether you had bought a ticket for a short journey, or had you bought a ticket for the actual journey you had made. If you had the ticket for the actual journey (albeit bought after the event) then it maybe wouldn't hurt to play a bit innocent and start by proving that point. It 'may' be enough to deflect attention from the rest of it. Of course, if you had bought a short ticket then that point is moot.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If you had the ticket for the actual journey (albeit bought after the event) then it maybe wouldn't hurt to play a bit innocent and start by proving that point. It 'may' be enough to deflect attention from the rest of it.

I'm not sure this will work. Tickets carry the time they were issued: it's known what time the OP was challenged: if the ticket was issued very shortly before the challenge then that effectively demonstrates that the ticket was not bought until after the journey: this is turn demonstrates (certainly on the balance of probabilities and I would think also beyond reasonable doubt) that a valid ticket was not held when the journey was made (reasoning - because anyone with a valid ticket issued before the journey would produce that rather than one bought afterwards.)

 

[MotCO]

I think that there are still a lot of facts missing, and if the OP wants the best possible advice, it would be helpful if he gave a summary of the journey he took and when he bought what ticket. If he doesn't want to give full details, he can refer to the stations as A, B, C etc.

Also, has he done anything similar in the past, and if so, has he been caught and punished?

 

[chawky]

But over to you experts

In order to help I recommend making a post here detailing exactly what’s happened.

It would help if you could answer:

What station were you travelling from/to?
When did a member of staff check your ticket?
What ticket did you show the staff, if you had one at all at the time of them checking?

 

[tankthomas]

Why do the stations matter.
They checked my ticket after I got off
I showed them the ticket for the part journey

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Why do the stations matter.
They checked my ticket after I got off
I showed them the ticket for the part journey

Please read the following and then respond with the appropriate information.

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[John R]

Why do the stations matter.
They checked my ticket after I got off
I showed them the ticket for the part journey

Given they are using you of short-faring, I'd have thought it fairly obvious why the stations are relevant.

 

[tankthomas]

Northfield to five ways

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I bought the right anytime ticket after getting off the stop.

They checked my ticket after I got off
I showed them the ticket for the part journey

We probably can give advice without knowing the exact stations, but on the basis of the above statements, you are potentially in trouble for at least two reasons:
- you didn't buy your ticket before getting on the train. With a few exceptions (none of which, I think, will apply to stations in the West Midlands area) you need to buy your ticket before getting on the train
- you need to have a ticket or tickets which cover your whole journey

If the railway can show that you did either of these things, they can take you to court and they will win. And if it looks likely that you have done this more than once, they will want the train fare (plus their costs of investigating this) from you.

But the railway might not take you to court if you can convince them that you have learnt your lesson and will not do it again. They have already told you that

Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records.

That means that the railway have gone through your records with Trainline and maybe the other websites that will sell you train tickets. They know what tickets you bought - and from the time they caught you, they know the journey you normally make

I now agree with those people who think that you need to talk about every time you haven't paid the right fare at the right time: you don't know what the railway have found out, so if you try to keep quiet about something that they do know about they won't think that you have learnt your lesson: they will think that you are trying to get away with it.

So before writing to the railway, do what they already seem to have done and go through your records on Trainline or whoever you use to buy tickets through. Work out which times you didn't pay the right fare. Don't forget those times when you didn't buy a ticket just before leaving the station. Then when you write to the railway you can say something like 'I have checked my ticket history and since (whenever you started doing this) I have not paid the proper fare (however many) times'. If you also say sorry and promise not to fare dodge again, that might be enough to get the railway to offer you an out of court settlement.

 

[WesternLancer]

Why do the stations matter.
They checked my ticket after I got off
I showed them the ticket for the part journey

If you don't wish to give more detailed information of the sort the forum usually asks for you can follow the general advice given in these sorts of cases which is to write a reply back to WMR along the following lines to see if that persuades them not to prosecute you

The sort of things you need to include in your reply, and to convince them of, are:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

In addition there is good advice in post #24 that should help you consider what other detail to include.

 

[MotCO]

Northfield to five ways

Something you may not appreciate is that all the help you receive here is given freely by people in their own time who have some knowledge and experience of how this type of episode can be resolved as favourably as possible. However, to do this, we need some positive engagement from those we try to help, and we do need to know as much as possible about the case to give the best advice.

Perhaps more importantly, you need to engage positively with the rail company. If you engage with the rail company in the same way as you are engaging with us, you may not get very far.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Northfield to five ways

Is that your actual journey, or the ticket you had?

 

[Cowley]

Right I think we’ll put a hold on this for now.
@tankthomas - I’ve sent you a message, please check your inbox.