WMT - Proof of Past Railcard

[maxhf]

Hello everyone,

Earlier this month I was caught out for short fare evasion at Birmingham New Street station. West Midlands Trains digital fraud team made conact with me via email, they offered me a settlement figure, I have paid this settlement figure, and as far as I'm aware this matter is concluded.


However, I recieved an email today from the same investigator stating "Please could you provide your railcard 16-25 used from August 2021 to February 2023".

As far as I'm aware I did have a 16-25 railcard during this period however I have zero evidence of this as my railcard would have expired over a year ago. Is the investigator simply fishing here?

Surely, as with any criminal investigation, the onus is on West Midlands Train to prove that I didn't have a railcard rather than the onus being on me to prove that I did have a railcard. Per the 16-25 railcard terms & conditions it states that a railcard must be presented alongside a valid ticket whilst on your jouney. There is no mention of the railcard needing to be retained after your journey.


Any advice would be useful. Should I just tell the investigator that I have no evidence of my railcard and in any case that the onus is on them to prove I didn't have one?

Thank you.

 

[signed]

Do you remember how you bought that 2021-2023 railcard?

If it is digital or plastic-carded you very likely have an email that can prove you have ordered such railcard.

A proof of purchase is very likely just fine

 

[maxhf]

Do you remember how you bought that 2021-2023 railcard?

If it is digital or plastic-carded you very likely have an email that can prove you have ordered such railcard

It was definitely a digital railcard however I am very on top of my emails so anything I don't need anymore, I delete. So once my railcard expired - I would have deleted any emails relevant to it.

 

[signed]

It was definitely a digital railcard however I am very on top of my emails so anything I don't need anymore, I delete. So once my railcard expired - I would have deleted any emails relevant to it.

Would it have been on Trainline/trip.com/... by any chance? If so, it may still be in your account. It may even be still on your Railcard account if you bought it there.

I would wait for other members to weigh in, but I'm pretty sure you could contact NR or whatever retailer you used and get a proof of purchase. In the worst case, a GDPR request would likely reveal that as well

 

[maxhf]

Would it have been on Trainline/trip.com/... by any chance? If so, it may still be in your account. It may even be still on your Railcard account if you bought it there.

I would wait for other members to weigh in, but I'm pretty sure you could contact NR or whatever retailer you used and get a proof of purchase. In the worst case, a GDPR request would likely reveal that as well

It would have been on Trainline yeah. I have checked my trainline account and that section of the app is now empty. Appreciate that I could probably get proof via making contact with Trainline however this would be quite long winded and in any case - I was not caught without a railcard at the time (because I had one) so I am of the opinion that West Midlands Trains need to prove my guilt rather than me needing to prove my innocence (as with any criminal investigation).

 

[30907]

Should I just tell the investigator that I have no evidence of my railcard and in any case that the onus is on them to prove I didn't have one?

The second part will come across as provocative in context (it's fine on a forum!).

You can almost certainly access your bank/card records and tell them when the card was purchased and from whom. As an absolute minimum, confirm that you had a railcard covering that period but that you no longer have exact details.

Fortunately, it would seem that WMT haven't uncovered anything else that might make them suspicious, such as previous short fares.

 

[AlterEgo]

WMT won't be able to prosecute you for anything rail fare related which happened in 2021 or 2023 anyway; summary-only offences must have information laid before a court no later than six months after the incident.

You should ignore their correspondence.

 

[maxhf]

WMT won't be able to prosecute you for anything rail fare related which happened in 2021 or 2023 anyway; summary-only offences must have information laid before a court no later than six months after the incident.

You should ignore their correspondence.

Thank you.


For now, I have sent the following:

"Hello,

Full payment was made yesterday - I will wait to receive a confirmation receipt from yourself.

In regards to my railcard, I did have a 16-25 railcard during the period you mention however I have no correspondence to prove this given that there is no requirement to keep such evidence."



If they continue to fish for a response I will ignore their emails.

 

[6Gman]

Thank you.


For now, I have sent the following:

"Hello,

Full payment was made yesterday - I will wait to receive a confirmation receipt from yourself.

In regards to my railcard, I did have a 16-25 railcard during the period you mention however I have no correspondence to prove this given that there is no requirement to keep such evidence."



If they continue to fish for a response I will ignore their emails.

I think your response is reasonable, but it may be wise to keep your options open in relation to any further correspondence rather than ignoring it.

 

[FuzzyDuck]

Who is your email provider? With Gmail for example I can see emaisl in the "All Emails" folder going back years, regardless if I actually deleted them.

 

[maxhf]

I think your response is reasonable, but it may be wise to keep your options open in relation to any further correspondence rather than ignoring it.

Thank you and noted - I will see what the investigator comes back with.

Who is your email provider? With Gmail for example I can see emaisl in the "All Emails" folder going back years, regardless if I actually deleted them.

It is Gmail yes, however even in my "All Emails" folder it only seems to show a seemingly random selection of messages (some of which I have deleted previously as you said). At this point I'm not looking to provide evidence of my railcard because I believe the investigator is fishing for an admission of guilt (even though I did have a railcard).

I will update this thread with the investigators response when I hear back in case anyone is interested.

 

[soil]

WMT won't be able to prosecute you for anything rail fare related which happened in 2021 or 2023 anyway; summary-only offences must have information laid before a court no later than six months after the incident.

You should ignore their correspondence.

they still can prosecute under fraud legislation beyond six months.

 

[maxhf]

they still can prosecute under fraud legislation beyond six months.

Fair, however as I mentioned in my original post that would be a criminal investigation and, as I understand it, with any criminal investigation it is up to the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I can't see how they would do this given that I was never caught without a railcard during the periods mentoned - they just think I might have not had a railcard.

Surely you cannot criminally prosecute someone over the fact you 'think' they have done something?

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

[AlterEgo]

they still can prosecute under fraud legislation beyond six months.

They'd need some actual evidence, which they don't have, of any fraud. They could prosecute for murder too I suppose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==

Fair, however as I mentioned in my original post that would be a criminal investigation and, as I understand it, with any criminal investigation it is up to the prosecution to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I can't see how they would do this given that I was never caught without a railcard during the periods mentoned - they just think I might have not had a railcard.

Surely you cannot criminally prosecute someone over the fact you 'think' they have done something?

They don't have an opinion either way as to whether you have a railcard, it's a speculative email fishing for more money and frankly you should have ignored it. Or told them to do one. They have literally no reasonable suspicion in this regard.

 

[maxhf]

They'd need some actual evidence, which they don't have, of any fraud. They could prosecute for murder too I suppose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==


They don't have an opinion either way as to whether you have a railcard, it's a speculative email fishing for more money and frankly you should have ignored it. Or told them to do one. They have literally no reasonable suspicion in this regard.

Understood and as I thought! I won't respond to future fishing emails. I suppose they are hoping for me to respond and confess to not having had a railcard so they can issue a hefty backdated penalty - I'm sure many people do this out of fear!

Appreciate your help so far.

 

[soil]

They'd need some actual evidence, which they don't have, of any fraud. They could prosecute for murder too I suppose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2024 ==


They don't have an opinion either way as to whether you have a railcard, it's a speculative email fishing for more money and frankly you should have ignored it. Or told them to do one. They have literally no reasonable suspicion in this regard.

That was my point. The OP is timed out for simple fare evasion but can certainly incriminate himself to fraud charges.

 

[AlterEgo]

That was my point. The OP is timed out for simple fare evasion but can certainly incriminate himself to fraud charges.

Indeed in these circumstances it is best to simply say nothing and not play their game.

 

[Hadders]

Purchasing tickets you aren't entitled to use isn't illegal. Using then is.

West Midlands Trains have messed up here. They should've asked for evidence of your railcard before they offered you a settlement. This would still give them the option to prosecute you for the offence on the day you were caught if you didn't co-operate. Now that incident where you were caught has been settled it is difficult to see how they could prosecute you. A prosecution for fraud is a possibility but I don't recall ever seeing anyone being prosecuted for fraud as a result of a rail fare irregularity (I'm sure someone will correct me...)

 

[maxhf]

Purchasing tickets you aren't entitled to use isn't illegal. Using then is.

West Midlands Trains have messed up here. They should've asked for evidence of your railcard before they offered you a settlement. This would still give them the option to prosecute you for the offence on the day you were caught if you didn't co-operate. Now that incident where you were caught has been settled it is difficult to see how they could prosecute you. A prosecution for fraud is a possibility but I don't recall ever seeing anyone being prosecuted for fraud as a result of a rail fare irregularity (I'm sure someone will correct me...)

Just to be clear - when I was caught it was for short fare evasion. Nothing to do with a railcard and I have not used a railcard on any tickets since February 2023.

Are you saying that even though the period I used a railcard was well over 6 months ago (last used February 2023) - they could have prosecuted me for this along side short fare evasion? Even though the alleged offence was over 6 months ago?

I can’t see how the two things are related unless I’m misunderstanding. I was caught red handed with the short fare evasion so no qualms there but surely they couldn’t have also prosecuted me for supposedly not having a railcard because 1) it was over 6 months ago and 2) they have zero evidence that I didn’t have a railcard?

 

[Alex C.]

Just to be clear - when I was caught it was for short fare evasion. Nothing to do with a railcard and I have not used a railcard on any tickets since February 2023.

Are you saying that even though the period I used a railcard was well over 6 months ago (last used February 2023) - they could have prosecuted me for this along side short fare evasion? Even though the alleged offence was over 6 months ago?

I can’t see how the two things are related unless I’m misunderstanding. I was caught red handed with the short fare evasion so no qualms there but surely they couldn’t have also prosecuted me for supposedly not having a railcard because 1) it was over 6 months ago and 2) they have zero evidence that I didn’t have a railcard?

No but what they could do is say they would prosecute the offence they can prove, with no out of court settlement, unless you pay for the railcard tickets (or provide proof of having one) as well. Many people would pay to avoid the fairly guaranteed criminal record in that situation.

 

[Hadders]

No but what they could do is say they would prosecute the offence they can prove, with no out of court settlement, unless you pay for the railcard tickets (or provide proof of having one) as well. Many people would pay to avoid the fairly guaranteed criminal record in that situation.

Exactly this.

 

[maxhf]

No but what they could do is say they would prosecute the offence they can prove, with no out of court settlement, unless you pay for the railcard tickets (or provide proof of having one) as well. Many people would pay to avoid the fairly guaranteed criminal record in that situation.

Ah I understand now. Seems unfair but I guess they have every right

 

[30907]

Exactly this.

Except that the OP has already paid the settlement.

 

[maxhf]

Except that the OP has already paid the settlement.

I believe that's what Hadders said in their original post. West Midlands Trains have messed up because they should have asked for my past railcard before offering me a settlement amount for the short fare evasion.

 

[Hadders]

I believe that's what Hadders said in their original post. West Midlands Trains have messed up because they should have asked for my past railcard before offering me a settlement amount for the short fare evasion.

Correct!

 

[maxhf]

For anyone interested - WMT replied to me today confirming that my previous payment has been received and my case has been closed. They did not even acknowledge my comments Re my past railcard.

 

[ikcdab]

Good to hear.