WMT Penalty Fare

[pyrrhic]

Hello,

My partner and I were travelling in Birmingham and have been issued a penalty of 100 (50 if paid within 21 days - issues on 09/09 so due 30/09 (?)) + ticket price of 5.40 for purchasing tickets after departure -- aka, we have been issued two separate penalties. We were travelling from Blake Street to Birmingham New Street. My appeal is rooted in a few reasons:

- I am NOT from Birmingham (we were ticketed at 11.20 and while I dont have access to knowing when we bought the tickets, as he bought it for me, I believe they were bought about 15 minutes into the journey) -- I am from London, where I am used to TFL, being able to buy tickets on the Abbey Line (Hertfordshire) and have witnessed buying tickets on trains in both Devon (where I went to uni) and Lincolnshire (where I have travelled before). In my mind, I didn't even know buying tickets after departure was a problem as I have bought tickets from train inspectors before.

- As mentioned above, my boyfriend bought the tickets - am I able to shed responsibility by saying I believed my ticket was purchased already and legally ? Or as a 22 year old is this my ultimate responsibility?

- I really, severely, cannot afford this. I will literally go into debt paying this. I don't have a job at the moment either.

- both my partner and I have ADHD and genuinely forgot... It doesn't look good that my boyfriend only bought tickets after seeing inspectors but there were no barriers at Blake Street, but there are at Birmingham... Using our tickets we would've used them correctly. We also were already past Blake Street but on our tickets purchased them FROM Blake Street - we didn't lie and try to reduce our journey. As mentioned above, my boyfriend is at work, so I will definitely share if the tickets were restricted/off-peak or not as I know sometimes these can be flexible times. But I don't know as my ticket was bought under his account.

Is there any way me or my boyfriend can appeal? If I provide my train travel journey and show that I always buy tickets and usually travel within TFL / Hertfordshire would this help my cause at all?

Thank you so much for your help !!!

 

[island]

You committed a criminal offence by boarding a train without a ticket at a station that has ticketing facilities. Not knowing is not a defence.

You can appeal the Penalty Fare by following the instructions on the notice. You need to do that in the next few days as the deadline will be the 30th.

Potential grounds of appeal would be that the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations, as you did present a ticket. A penalty fare cannot be issued where a valid ticket is presented, even if the ticket was bought too late. However if you had already been asked for a ticket by the time your partner began the purchase, this wouldn't apply.

History of paying, or custom and practice on other lines, count for nothing. And as an adult, you have your own personal responsibility to have a ticket.

Feel free to show us a draft of your appeal and we can comment on it, but do not delay as you are very close to the deadline.

 

[notmyrealname]

Hi, welcome to the forum.

You could also help the pros on here to advise you by posting the penalty fare notice that you have. Sometimes there's a technical error.

 

[Snow1964]

Where you normally travel won't be a factor, of 2500 stations in UK, only a few hundred have barriers.

Because you travelled without buying a ticket at the start station or didn't buy it advance then you committed an offence. The penalty is not a fine, but a fixed value deterrent.

There is exception where ticket issuing facilities don't exist at start station, (or are all out of service), then you can buy on train. You generally cannot buy tickets on a train except where they serve these minor stations with no ticket issuing.

The only realistic reason for an appeal, is if they weren't issued correctly (technical reasons), not because forgot to buy a ticket until you saw a ticket inspector.

 

[John R]

- both my partner and I have ADHD and genuinely forgot... It doesn't look good that my boyfriend only bought tickets after seeing inspectors but there were no barriers at Blake Street, but there are at Birmingham... Using our tickets we would've used them correctly.

Is there any way me or my boyfriend can appeal? If I provide my train travel journey and show that I always buy tickets and usually travel within TFL / Hertfordshire would this help my cause at all?

No, it doesn't look good that you walked past an open ticket office, and ticket machines, boarded a train, and you both forgot to purchase a ticket for 15 minutes into the journey until a ticket inspector appeared. The argument that there are barriers at New St is irrelevant, as you could (as many people do) chance it and buy a "short fare" ticket from, say, Aston.

I'm afraid, what happens elsewhere isn't relevant either, but I note that the Abbey Line mentioned also has penalty fares if you board without a valid ticket, so maybe you need to purchase before boarding on that line in future.

Unless there is a technical error with the PF notice, then I'm afraid you will have to pay. We often do spot errors, so do post them here, and posters will be able to check for you.

 

[30907]

With respect, you can certainly not buy after boarding on TfL services, so I wouldn't pursue that line of defence, sorry

 

[pyrrhic]

Potential grounds of appeal would be that the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with the regulations, as you did present a ticket. A penalty fare cannot be issued where a valid ticket is presented, even if the ticket was bought too late. However if you had already been asked for a ticket by the time your partner began the purchase, this wouldn't apply.

Hey, I'm attaching a photo of my notice below. I am very interested in what you are saying - my partner is still at work so I do not have access to our tickets yet but we definitely bought our tickets before we were asked to do so (albeit by only up to 5 minutes prior).

BTW - I am new to these forums. Thank you so much to you & all the other posters for your replies ! I really appreciate it .

 

[furlong]

As Island already explained, 'Purchased after departure' is not a valid reason for imposing a Penalty Fare. In effect it states that a valid ticket must have been presented to the inspector (or else they could not have stated 'purchased after departure') and therefore no Penalty Fare can be issued. Appeal on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

It's very simple:

Requirement to produce a ticket
4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.

which you claim that you did.

Penalty fares
5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

Doesn't apply.

(And remember that a ticket's validity is objectively binary - it is either valid or it is not - and it cannot depend on when or where it was purchased.)

 

[AlterEgo]

What time did you buy your tickets? This is the time the email was sent to your partner with the booking confirmation. This is really important to the fundamentals of your appeal.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello,

My partner and I were travelling in Birmingham and have been issued a penalty of 100 (50 if paid within 21 days - issues on 09/09 so due 30/09 (?)) + ticket price of 5.40 for purchasing tickets after departure -- aka, we have been issued two separate penalties. We were travelling from Blake Street to Birmingham New Street. My appeal is rooted in a few reasons:

- I am NOT from Birmingham (we were ticketed at 11.20 and while I dont have access to knowing when we bought the tickets, as he bought it for me, I believe they were bought about 15 minutes into the journey) -- I am from London, where I am used to TFL, being able to buy tickets on the Abbey Line (Hertfordshire) and have witnessed buying tickets on trains in both Devon (where I went to uni) and Lincolnshire (where I have travelled before). In my mind, I didn't even know buying tickets after departure was a problem as I have bought tickets from train inspectors before.

- As mentioned above, my boyfriend bought the tickets - am I able to shed responsibility by saying I believed my ticket was purchased already and legally ? Or as a 22 year old is this my ultimate responsibility?

- I really, severely, cannot afford this. I will literally go into debt paying this. I don't have a job at the moment either.

- both my partner and I have ADHD and genuinely forgot... It doesn't look good that my boyfriend only bought tickets after seeing inspectors but there were no barriers at Blake Street, but there are at Birmingham... Using our tickets we would've used them correctly. We also were already past Blake Street but on our tickets purchased them FROM Blake Street - we didn't lie and try to reduce our journey. As mentioned above, my boyfriend is at work, so I will definitely share if the tickets were restricted/off-peak or not as I know sometimes these can be flexible times. But I don't know as my ticket was bought under his account.

Is there any way me or my boyfriend can appeal? If I provide my train travel journey and show that I always buy tickets and usually travel within TFL / Hertfordshire would this help my cause at all?

Thank you so much for your help !!!

I see you are getting advice here but don’t miss the appeal deadline even if you put the most basic appeal in stage one before that deadline. Don’t leave it to the last minute.

You have three stages and it stops the clock on the payment at the discounted rate. So if nothing else it gives you time to save up the £50 sum. Etc.

 

[pyrrhic]

As Island already explained, 'Purchased after departure' is not a valid reason for imposing a Penalty Fare. In effect it states that a valid ticket must have been presented to the inspector (or else they could not have stated 'purchased after departure') and therefore no Penalty Fare can be issued. Appeal on the grounds it was not issued in accordance with the regulations.

Hey, Thank you so much for your reply - we found this very helpful! Bad news, it turns out our tickets were for the next train as you cannot buy a ticket for a train which has already departed... However, I am checking the validity if it is a super off-peak ticket? It's called an anytime day single... so surely they are still valid?

As you can see the time purchased was 11.15 and we received our penalty fare at 11.20, so we were able to provide a valid ticket that completed purchase / confirmation BEFORE our penalty was issued.

 

[WesternLancer]

Anytime tickets are valid on any train. The ticket buying system that forces you to select a specific train can be confusing but is meant to help ensure people don’t buy off peak tickets and use them on peak times for example.

 

[MotCO]

As you can see the time purchased was 11.15 and we received our penalty fare at 11.20, so we were able to provide a valid ticket that completed purchase / confirmation BEFORE our penalty was issued.

My only concern is that there is not much difference between these times. It is possible for the ticket inspector to have entered your carriage and taken say 10 minutes to get to you, in which time you have spotted him, and bought a ticket. I'm not saying that that is what did happen, but you can see it from their point of view.

To counter this, were you one of the first people in your carriage to have your ticket checked, or one of the last? If the former, you would not have had enough time to buy a ticket.

 

[AlterEgo]

That's not a lot of difference in time. It will likely look to the appeal that the tickets were bought after challenge, which means one was not shown on request. However, it is the only line of appeal you have, so you'll have to go with it.

 

[blimmo]

It is possible for the ticket inspector to have entered your carriage and taken say 10 minutes to get to you, in which time you have spotted him, and bought a ticket.

I believe OP has basically said this is what happened but I don't think this changes the appeal? All that matters is that the ticket was bought before the ticket inspector asked for it, no? Tbh I would argue that any PF issued with reason "purchased after departure" is invalid automatically: the ticket inspector themselves is claiming that a ticket was shown. The fact they may have a suspicion that the passenger may have earlier committed an offence does not justify issuing a PF (although I think it probably should).

 

[gray1404]

What time was the other PF issued? We also need to see the other PF to check for any errors.

Also if you do intend on paying this if your appeals (upto 3 appeals) are unsuccessful you will need to keep an eye on the dates. Appealing stops the clock on paying at a discount but the 21 days restarts between you hearing the result of an appeal and appealing a second or third time.

 

[furlong]

The underlying issue here is that the PF is required by the regulations to include the cost of a fare that was already purchased - and you should not be made to pay a second time for a journey for which you already have paid the correct amount as that would unduly enrich the train company. The only penalty is the £100/£50 payment.

(If they had wanted to penalise "purchase after departure" in the regulations, then they should have addressed this situation specifically e.g. by updating them so that only the £100/£50 element is due. But that hasn't been done - yet. And arguably all the online retail websites and apps should be updated to warn that even though a ticket is being sold, a penalty could still be charged.)

 

[pyrrhic]

What time was the other PF issued? We also need to see the other PF to check for any errors.

I've attached my partner's penalty fare.

Also if you do intend on paying this if your appeals (upto 3 appeals) are unsuccessful you will need to keep an eye on the dates. Appealing stops the clock on paying at a discount but the 21 days restarts between you hearing the result of an appeal and appealing a second or third time.

Sorry, I'm unsure of the process. Do you mean if I do not intend to pay that if I appeal and the results fall after my initial 21 days that I will have to pay the full fare? Or do you mean that if I appeal I will have another 21 days after my results (I think this is the right answer) ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2025 ==

were you one of the first people in your carriage to have your ticket checked, or one of the last? If the former, you would not have had enough time to buy a ticket.

There was only one couple before us that had it checked first... Should I include, then, that we were one of the first? Do you mean that this looks better as we wouldn't have had enough time to quickly scurry to buy a ticket? Sorry for my confusion... I think this is what you mean.

 

[WesternLancer]

I've attached my partner's penalty fare.

Sorry, I'm unsure of the process. Do you mean if I do not intend to pay that if I appeal and the results fall after my initial 21 days that I will have to pay the full fare? Or do you mean that if I appeal I will have another 21 days after my results (I think this is the right answer) ?

No you don’t get another 21 days aiui.

 

[blimmo]

I believe the way it works is you get 21 days from the PF being issued but every day between you submitting the appeal and getting the response doesn't count. So if you've used up almost all of the day you'll need to get your subsequent appeals in quickly.

 

[gray1404]

You get 21 days to pay the reduced rate every day between you submitting an appeal doesn't count.

The other option is you pay the plenty fare notices at the reduced rate now and then if one of your 3 appeals is successful it will be refunded. How do you feel about this?

There is no provision in the Penalty Fare regulations for one to be issued if a ticket was purchased after departure. Rather at the point of inspection was the customer able to provide a valid ticket. Plus you have already paid the fare for the journey so should not be forced to pay this again.

Please also note we regularly see the first and second appeals being rejected. It seems only at the third stage doesn't a panel that is independent look at an appeal and we see good outcomes. So be prepared to appeal 3 times even if you feel like you are repeating yourself.

 

[MotCO]

Sorry, I'm unsure of the process. Do you mean if I do not intend to pay that if I appeal and the results fall after my initial 21 days that I will have to pay the full fare? Or do you mean that if I appeal I will have another 21 days after my results (I think this is the right answer) ?


There was only one couple before us that had it checked first... Should I include, then, that we were one of the first? Do you mean that this looks better as we wouldn't have had enough time to quickly scurry to buy a ticket? Sorry for my confusion... I think this is what you mean.

You have 21 days in total.

Yes, that sounds good news. It supports the view that you did not buy your tickets just because you saw the ticket inspector. Since time is not on your side, I would submit your appeal as soon as possible - don't worry about this issue at this stage, but you may want to include it in your second or third appeal, depending on what their response is.

 

[pyrrhic]

Hello, Thank you everyone for all your help! I feel much more confident about my appeal. Here is my first appeal, please help me improve my appeal for the potential second and third rounds:

My ground of appeal is that the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with regulations: "Requirement to produce a ticket 4.-(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket." My partner and I (Mr., PF, RN) had bought our tickets at 11.15am which were Anytime Day Single Standard Tickets from Blake Street to Birmingham New Street; in other words, we purchased our tickets 5-6 minutes before our penalty fare was issued (11.20 and 11.21am). Our tickets are valid tickets as outlined in the above requirement, meaning Penalty Fare Clause "5.-(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare" does not apply. A ticket's validity is objectively binary - it is either valid or it is not - it cannot depend on when or where it was purchased. Although we purchased our tickets whilst already on our train, we did not purchase an invalid ticket as we purchased tickets applicable to our journey from Blake Street to Birmingham New Street, we purchased it before we were aware of ticket officers, and our tickets were Anytime Day Standard Tickets meaning they were valid for the journey taken, as we were not on board the train at peak times. Purchased after Departure is not a valid reason for imposing a Penalty Fare, especially one which encompassed a penalty fare on top of our valid ticket price of 5.40 each. Moreover, we were one of the first people in our carriage to have our tickets checked, meaning it was impossible for us to begin a purchase after spotting a ticketing officer - we had confirmation of tickets 5 minutes before we had them checked and before we had our penalty fare issued. The ticketing officer claims we had a ticket shown, therefore purchased after departure is automatically an invalid reason for issuing this penalty fare. As aforementioned, by regulations Penalty Fares are required to include the cost of a fare that was already purchased and yet we are being asked to pay for a second time for a journey for which we have already paid the correct amount, unduly enriching the train company. If the train company wanted to penalise "purchase after departure" in the regulations, then they should address this situation specifically by updating regulations so that only the £50/100 penalty fare is due. But that has not occured yet, and neither do online retail websites and apps warn of a potential penalty charge for the tickets they sell. As there is no provision in the Penalty Fare regulations for a penalty to be issued if a ticket was purchased after departure, and we were able to provide valid tickets, we are appealing for this fare to firstly remove the additional ticket charge, and ultimately to be revoked as an invalid reason to issue a penalty fare for presented valid tickets.

And I included unblurred pictures of our ticket confirmation and the penalty fare (the files I uploaded above) - my partner is using the same draft but obviously with my details and his own penalty fare picture.

 

[jfollows]

OK, but I can’t or won’t read what you’ve posted as it stands, I hope you’ll add paragraph breaks and structure it so that it’s easier to read.
It doesn’t matter that I won’t read it, but you want the person to whom you’re sending it to read it I think.

 

[furlong]

That needs to be edited down a bit to focus just on the matter in hand. You shouldn't include all the 'commentary' from this thread. Replace the bits you remove with reference to the regulations about how an appeal is handled i.e. 16(3)(a), 17(4) etc. (Plenty of examples in other threads, we can find one.) It's a different type of appeal, but it shows one format: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/post-6421189

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello, Thank you everyone for all your help! I feel much more confident about my appeal. Here is my first appeal, please help me improve my appeal for the potential second and third rounds:

My ground of appeal is that the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with regulations: "Requirement to produce a ticket 4.-(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket." My partner and I (Mr., PF, RN) had bought our tickets at 11.15am which were Anytime Day Single Standard Tickets from Blake Street to Birmingham New Street; in other words, we purchased our tickets 5-6 minutes before our penalty fare was issued (11.20 and 11.21am). Our tickets are valid tickets as outlined in the above requirement, meaning Penalty Fare Clause "5.-(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare" does not apply. A ticket's validity is objectively binary - it is either valid or it is not - it cannot depend on when or where it was purchased. Although we purchased our tickets whilst already on our train, we did not purchase an invalid ticket as we purchased tickets applicable to our journey from Blake Street to Birmingham New Street, we purchased it before we were aware of ticket officers, and our tickets were Anytime Day Standard Tickets meaning they were valid for the journey taken, as we were not on board the train at peak times. Purchased after Departure is not a valid reason for imposing a Penalty Fare, especially one which encompassed a penalty fare on top of our valid ticket price of 5.40 each. Moreover, we were one of the first people in our carriage to have our tickets checked, meaning it was impossible for us to begin a purchase after spotting a ticketing officer - we had confirmation of tickets 5 minutes before we had them checked and before we had our penalty fare issued. The ticketing officer claims we had a ticket shown, therefore purchased after departure is automatically an invalid reason for issuing this penalty fare. As aforementioned, by regulations Penalty Fares are required to include the cost of a fare that was already purchased and yet we are being asked to pay for a second time for a journey for which we have already paid the correct amount, unduly enriching the train company. If the train company wanted to penalise "purchase after departure" in the regulations, then they should address this situation specifically by updating regulations so that only the £50/100 penalty fare is due. But that has not occured yet, and neither do online retail websites and apps warn of a potential penalty charge for the tickets they sell. As there is no provision in the Penalty Fare regulations for a penalty to be issued if a ticket was purchased after departure, and we were able to provide valid tickets, we are appealing for this fare to firstly remove the additional ticket charge, and ultimately to be revoked as an invalid reason to issue a penalty fare for presented valid tickets.

And I included unblurred pictures of our ticket confirmation and the penalty fare (the files I uploaded above) - my partner is using the same draft but obviously with my details and his own penalty fare picture.

Far too long. You are appealing on a single ground. This is far more focused, my additions and removals in bold:

My ground of appeal is that the penalty fare was not issued in accordance with the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 under which it was issued":

"Requirement to produce a ticket
4.-(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket."

My partner and I (Mr., PF, RN) had bought our tickets at 11.15am which were Anytime Day Single Standard Tickets from Blake Street to Birmingham New Street; in other words, we purchased our tickets 5-6 minutes before our penalty fare was issued (11.20 and 11.21am). Our tickets are valid tickets as outlined in the above requirement, meaning Penalty Fare Clause "5(1):

Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare"

does not apply.

A ticket's validity is objectively binary - it is either valid or it is not - it cannot depend on when or where it was purchased. Although we purchased our tickets whilst already on our train, we did not purchase an invalid ticket as we purchased tickets applicable to our journey from Blake Street to Birmingham New Street, we purchased it before we were aware of ticket officers, and our tickets were Anytime Day Standard Tickets meaning they were valid for the journey taken, as we were not on board the train at peak times.

Purchased after Departure is not a valid reason for imposing a Penalty Fare especially one which encompassed a penalty fare on top of our valid ticket price of 5.40 each. Moreover, we were one of the first people in our carriage to have our tickets checked, meaning it was impossible for us to begin a purchase after spotting a ticketing officer - we had confirmation of tickets 5 minutes before we had them checked and before we had our penalty fare issued.

The ticketing officer claims we had a ticket shown, therefore "purchased after departure" is automatically an invalid reason for issuing this penalty fare.

As aforementioned, by regulations Penalty Fares are required to include the cost of a fare that was already purchased and yet we are being asked to pay for a second time for a journey for which we have already paid the correct amount, unduly enriching the train company. If the train company wanted to penalise "purchase after departure" in the regulations, then they should address this situation specifically by updating regulations so that only the £50/100 penalty fare is due. But that has not occured yet, and neither do online retail websites and apps warn of a potential penalty charge for the tickets they sell.

As there is no provision in the Penalty Fare regulations for a penalty to be issued if a ticket was purchased after departure, and we were able to provide valid tickets, we are appealing for this fare to firstly remove the additional ticket charge, and ultimately to be revoked as an invalid reason to issue a penalty fare for presented valid tickets. I ask you allow the appeal and cancel the Penalty Fare.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

As there is no provision in the Penalty Fare regulations for a penalty to be issued if a ticket was purchased after departure, and we were able to provide valid tickets, we are appealing for this fare to firstly remove the additional ticket charge, and ultimately to be revoked as an invalid reason to issue a penalty fare for presented valid tickets. I ask you allow the appeal and cancel the Penalty Fare.

Does this mean that when a ticket purchased after departure is detected, the response should be a report for potential prosecution?

As a Penalty Fare is usaully a lesser penalty even where the Company accepts money not to prosecute, does this make it advice not to attempt to buy a ticket at all if on a train without a valid ticket? At the very least, it becomes better to offer no ticket rather than an invalid one.

 

[furlong]

Does this mean that when a ticket purchased after departure is detected, the response should be a report for potential prosecution?
As a Penalty Fare is usaully a lesser penalty even where the Company accepts money not to prosecute, does this make it advice not to attempt to buy a ticket at all if on a train without a valid ticket? At the very least, it becomes better to offer no ticket rather than an invalid one.

As I've said on other threads, I think this is just one more example of the railway shooting itself in the foot. Penalising people who are trying to do the right thing within an arcane system. Let's see what follows the recent ORR review.

 

[MotCO]

Does this mean that when a ticket purchased after departure is detected, the response should be a report for potential prosecution?

As a Penalty Fare is usaully a lesser penalty even where the Company accepts money not to prosecute, does this make it advice not to attempt to buy a ticket at all if on a train without a valid ticket? At the very least, it becomes better to offer no ticket rather than an invalid one.

Tickets sold by a guard on the train, where there were no suitable ticketing vendors, are obviously bought after departure. So I can't see why anyone should be penalised, unless it was obvious that the ticket was only bought when ticket inspectors were sighted. When the rules were made, it would not have been foreseen that tickets could be bought by passengers without the guard selling them.

 

[anothertyke]

Only an amateur here, but is the OP at risk of WMT responding along the lines ' yes you are quite right, thank you for admitting this, we are withdrawing the penalty fare and reporting you for prosecution.'?