WMR Fare Evasions

[028922lgh]

Firstly I'd like to say hello to everyone here and I would appreciate any support/advice I could get. I'm in a very bad position as I have been caught fare evasion two days ago. I am extremely embarrassed and ashamed to admit, I understand that there are no excuses to committing fare evasion and how it is an offence, and WMR are within their rights to prosecute me.

I have moved to Birmingham from Bromsgrove last year around June time, and I have been taking trips 3 to 4 times a month from New Street to Bromsgrove to visit family a that live there still. Shamefully, I would purchase a ticket from New street to Five Ways (the first station after) so I could get through the barriers, saving a total of £4.40. Looking back at it, I am truly stupid for thinking I will get away with it.

Now the biggest problem I have - I routinely take the train to Five Ways so I can go jogging in a nearby park. I only purchase a one-way ticket because I am walking on my way back home (which isn't far away). I just take the new street train as the station is closeby to my home.

To anyone with a pair of eyes this looks like I have been fare evading on my way to Bromsgrove for multiple days a week. How could I possibly prove that the tickets for Five Ways are actually for going to Five Ways.

To add another layer to my incredibly messy situation, and I know and am being incredibly regretul and full of anxiety - I have received a fine for not having a timely bought ticket before - on the same route to Bromsgrove.

I am going through a mix of negative emotions, remorse, shame, guilt, self-anger. My only explanation is that I wished to save a couple of pounds because I have been struggling financially with a minimum paid part time job.

I have counted approximately 110 fares I have made to Five Ways, most of which legitimate, and I would say around 19-20 fraudulent. I am beyond mortified of recieving a gigantic sum of money that I cannot pay in one go. I am more than willing to pay for my wrongdoings, and even all the trips if I could possibly pay in installments - which from what I gathered isn't something you can do if they settle out of court. I am devastated if they will take me to court and have a criminal record. I feel as if I truly hit rock bottom, how could I possibly prove that not all my fares are fraudulent?

It would mean the world to me if anyone could give me any sort of advice. I understand that I'm not in the best state of mind but I'm truly scared. I will stop taking the train altogether and if I need to journey in the future, I will purchase a railway card to help with the costs.

Thank you so much for reading my post - I haven't received anything through post yet.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Just checking the timeline here:

- You moved to Bromsgrove last June
- Since then you've been short faring 3-4 times a month using a Birmingham New Street to Five Ways ticket to get through the barriers
- You sometimes travel legitimately from Birmingham New Street to Five Ways and run home. Was this before you moved to Bromsgrove? Have you done this since you moved to Bromsgrove?

Clearly, having been caught before for a ticketing irregularity doesn't help your case. I suspect WMT will settle if you co-operate with them but you'll probably have to work harder than normal to obtain one, and I doubt it'll be cheap.

There isn't anything you can do until you receive a letter from WMT. When the letter arrives, post a (redacted) copy of it in this thread and forum members will assist in how to reply.

 

[30907]

Welcome to the forum.

Assuming WMT do the usual investigation, they will of course notice what you have been doing. However, if you claim that some of your one-way journeys are legitimate, they may accept that - they are not out to get every last penny, but they would like you to stop short faring.

The problem may be the large number of legitimate journeys you would be claiming, so it may help if you can provide some evidence. For example, purchases made in Birmingham an hour or so after a journey to Five Ways.

Another thought: what tickets have you been buying to come back from Bromsgrove? That would identify the times when you have definitely short fared, and might strengthen your case.

Anyway, this is all guesswork at this stage.

(@Hadders, I read the OP as having moved FROM bromsgrove TO Brum.)

 

[Hadders]

(@Hadders, I read the OP as having moved FROM bromsgrove TO Brum.)

Agreed, having re-read the opening post.

 

[Kite159]

Were the tickets to Five Ways issued as etickets or as physical tickets?
If issued as etickets and used to exit the station then the company will have evidence that those were genuine journeys

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Now the biggest problem I have - I routinely take the train to Five Ways so I can go jogging in a nearby park. I only purchase a one-way ticket because I am walking on my way back home (which isn't far away). I just take the new street train as the station is closeby to my home.

To anyone with a pair of eyes this looks like I have been fare evading on my way to Bromsgrove for multiple days a week. How could I possibly prove that the tickets for Five Ways are actually for going to Five Ways.

I think you are right to identify this as a problem. I'm not local to Birmingham but to me taking a train out for one stop to go jogging sounds inherently unlikely.

I'd suggest 2 things you should do:
- be ruthless with yourself in identifying which trips were actually short faring (whether to Bromsgrove or anywhere else). Don't waste your time on trying to defend the indefensible.
- for what's left (when you went to Five Ways to go running) think hard about how to explain why you go there to go running. What makes that park better for you to go running than anywhere else in Birmingham? Now check the times of your tickets to go running. Did you buy tickets at a time which is plausible to go running, rather than going to Bromsgrove? And what about the weather - do you run in all weathers or only when it was nice? And when does the park shut (as some do where I live)? If it opens at dawn/ shuts at twilight no one will believe you were there for a run yesterday at 6 in the morning or 9 at night.

 

[Cuthbert]

They should be able to check through TrainLine the barrier exit at Five Ways that'll prove you went to Five Ways and not Bromsgrove.

 

[028922lgh]

I think you are right to identify this as a problem. I'm not local to Birmingham but to me taking a train out for one stop to go jogging sounds inherently unlikely.

I'd suggest 2 things you should do:
- be ruthless with yourself in identifying which trips were actually short faring (whether to Bromsgrove or anywhere else). Don't waste your time on trying to defend the indefensible.
- for what's left (when you went to Five Ways to go running) think hard about how to explain why you go there to go running. What makes that park better for you to go running than anywhere else in Birmingham? Now check the times of your tickets to go running. Did you buy tickets at a time which is plausible to go running, rather than going to Bromsgrove? And what about the weather - do you run in all weathers or only when it was nice? And when does the park shut (as some do where I live)? If it opens at dawn/ shuts at twilight no one will believe you were there for a run yesterday at 6 in the morning or 9 at night.

Thank you so much for the reply. I know it sounds absolutely implausible - the reason why I go to that park specifically and routinely is because I have an emotional tie of some sort with it (without going into too much detail and risk yapping). I know it's not the most practical but I did not wish to go somewhere else. The reason why I take the train is because it takes me approximately 30 minutes walking there and I don't feel comfortable taking the bus (it works out as the same price and is less hectic). I walk on my way back after a jog because my muscles are already warmed up and push myself to get more steps. It is a habit I've gotten into and I always go there three times per week, sometimes four, in the afternoon. Now I will be completely honest, on different occasions I did say to myself "hey let's go to Bromsgrove, I'm already on the train and I could save some money". I feel very shameful about this as I acted very ignorantly and selfish.

They should be able to check through TrainLine the barrier exit at Five Ways that'll prove you went to Five Ways and not Bromsgrove.

I hope they are able to verify which tickets have been tapped in and out, it would give them irrefutable proof I imagine?? I cannot personally point out exactly which rides have been all the way to Bromsgrove with 100% accuracy

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2025 ==

Assuming WMT do the usual investigation, they will of course notice what you have been doing. However, if you claim that some of your one-way journeys are legitimate, they may accept that - they are not out to get every last penny, but they would like you to stop short faring.

The problem may be the large number of legitimate journeys you would be claiming, so it may help if you can provide some evidence. For example, purchases made in Birmingham an hour or so after a journey to Five Ways.

Another thought: what tickets have you been buying to come back from Bromsgrove? That would identify the times when you have definitely short fared, and might strengthen your case.

Thank you a lot for responding, unfortunately I do not have anything to prove I was in Five Ways, unless my e-ticket bought on Trainline can be verified that it was tapped when I reached Five Ways. I don't think I can accurately pinpoint every journey that ended in Bromsgrove. I am afraid that if I admit "yes, I have been fare skipping BUT not in every instance" it will further incriminate me.

I have to admit, when the railway staff member caught me fare skipping, I started panicking because I thought I will go to court and be trialed as a criminal, I lied to him about the amout of times I actually been in Bromsgrove. Looking back at it, I wish I could go back in time and slap myself, it was an awful thing to lie about and I am very upset with myself.

I do not buy anything when I'm out jogging and walking, and after I'm done I go straight home to shower and eat.

Regarding coming back from Bromsgrove, my sister or mother are dropping me off after having spent the night over. I only have two tickets that are for Bromsgrove - New Street.

Were the tickets to Five Ways issued as etickets or as physical tickets?
If issued as etickets and used to exit the station then the company will have evidence that those were genuine journeys

They are all eTickets from Trainline

 

[John R]

If that’s the case then you could state that some of the journeys were legitimate, and whilst in retrospect you find it difficult to identify exactly which ones, you note that you exited through the gateline and understand that they will be able to identify those which have been scanned.

 

[028922lgh]

If that’s the case then you could state that some of the journeys were legitimate, and whilst in retrospect you find it difficult to identify exactly which ones, you note that you exited through the gateline and understand that they will be able to identify those which have been scanned.

From what I could gather reading the incredibly helpful posts here, I will be sent a letter which notifies me that I was found fare evading. Will they pinpoint from the get-go which tickets I need to pay for? Or will I have to explain my side fully and then receive a follow-up letter with a settlement (or god forbid, a court summon)?

 

[John R]

Yes you’ll be sent a letter (unless you are very lucky). You need to look out for it, and also for any emails that might get delivered to a spam or junk folder too.

Sometimes it will only refer to the one offence, but often it will mention that they see other suspicious transactions that they would like you to explain. You can only wait and see what the letter says.

If you cooperate and are apologetic and promise not to do it again then our experience is that, unless there are other aggravating factors (and you haven’t mentioned any) then you will almost certainly be offered a settlement.

 

[028922lgh]

Yes you’ll be sent a letter (unless you were very lucky). You need to look out for it, and also for any emails that might get delivered to a spam or junk folder too.

Sometimes it will only refer to the one offence, but often it will mention that they see other suspicious transactions that they would like you to explain. You can only wait and see what the letter says.

If you cooperate and are apologetic and promise not to do it again then our experience is that, unless there are other aggravating factors (and you haven’t mentioned any) then you will almost certainly be offered a settlement.

Honestly I am so terrified of this whole ordeal that I am willing to pay even for the genuine rides I have taken, just to not end up in court or to dig myself in a deeper hole because of anxiety. My biggest fear is that the settlement would be too much for me to pay upfront. I have all together 120 trips to Five Ways, and if they assume ALL of them are fare evasion it comes up to £936 (£7.8 per trip) and that is without any admin fees, which could add up to anywhere from £120 to £200+. I know I cannot do anything but wait (was it up to 6 months?) and I just feel incredibly anxious.

 

[tixy]

I would check your Google maps timeline for the times you go running, I’m sure you would be listening to music on your phone and if Google maps is activated, you will have a digital footprint of where you were on the days you went running.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I cannot personally point out exactly which rides have been all the way to Bromsgrove with 100% accuracy

You need to be as accurate as you can, even if that doesn't get to 100%. So use what information you have (e.g. @martinchapman8 has suggested looking at Google timeline - it might not be perfect but it's better than nothing) and also think about how often you go to Bromsgrove. Are you being realistic about how you are splitting journeys between Bromsgrove and Five Ways?

 

[028922lgh]

You need to be as accurate as you can, even if that doesn't get to 100%. So use what information you have (e.g. @martinchapman8 has suggested looking at Google timeline - it might not be perfect but it's better than nothing) and also think about how often you go to Bromsgrove. Are you being realistic about how you are splitting journeys between Bromsgrove and Five Ways?

I am a bit worried as somebody else here said that Google Timeline can be edited and it's not a reliable proof. I can only hope they are able to verify the tickets being scanned out - if they are able to look at all the journeys I made for 8 months that is

 

[SuspectUsual]

Honestly I am so terrified of this whole ordeal that I am willing to pay even for the genuine rides I have taken, just to not end up in court or to dig myself in a deeper hole because of anxiety. My biggest fear is that the settlement would be too much for me to pay upfront. I have all together 120 trips to Five Ways, and if they assume ALL of them are fare evasion it comes up to £936 (£7.8 per trip) and that is without any admin fees, which could add up to anywhere from £120 to £200+. I know I cannot do anything but wait (was it up to 6 months?) and I just feel incredibly anxious.

I would check your Google maps timeline for the times you go running, I’m sure you would be listening to music on your phone and if Google maps is activated, you will have a digital footprint of where you were on the days you went running.

You need to be as accurate as you can, even if that doesn't get to 100%. So use what information you have (e.g. @martinchapman8 has suggested looking at Google timeline - it might not be perfect but it's better than nothing) and also think about how often you go to Bromsgrove. Are you being realistic about how you are splitting journeys between Bromsgrove and Five Ways?

I am a bit worried as somebody else here said that Google Timeline can be edited and it's not a reliable proof. I can only hope they are able to verify the tickets being scanned out - if they are able to look at all the journeys I made for 8 months that is

Hang on a minute before going down the Google Timeline rabbit hole.

First, can the people you visit in Bromsgrove help at all with dates you went there? A scribble on a calendar perhaps?

Second, do your journeys (Bromsgrove and Five Ways) follow a pattern? Do you visit at a certain time of the week or month? Do you run on certain days?

Third, do you have anything that clearly puts you in Five Ways / Birmingham at the times they think you went to Bromsgrove? Debit / credit card purchases for example

Fourth, Five Ways has barriers doesn't it? If you used an e-ticket there'll be a record of it going through the gates at Five Ways, and WMT will have (or can get) access to that data. Now, the problem might be that its a bit awkward asking them to do the checking if you can't remember where you were on what date, but I think a reply saying something like "I do use Five Ways a lot as I run in Xxxxxx Park, and I believe this accounts for about 75% of the tickets, and data from your barriers at Five Ways will support that" is reasonable

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I am a bit worried as somebody else here said that Google Timeline can be edited and it's not a reliable proof.

This is, as you say, a potential problem - and you are asking the railway to believe something which is pretty unlikely. So essentially what you need to do is to show that you are being as truthful as you possibly can. That should make you someone who the railway will want to believe. That means using all the sources you can to support your story (and @SteveM70 's idea above are good too) - and rather as I said in post #6 above, not claim that you were in Five Ways when you were actually in Bromsgrove, in that if you do that the railway will think 'we know that they've lied on this one occasion - so why should we believe them for any other occasion?'

Essentially, what you will be trying to say is something like 'I know my story is unlikely. And I know that none of my evidence is totally reliable. But look at the amount of evidence that I am producing - surely I wouldn't have made all of that up? And for any dates that you can check, I've admitted to going to Bromsgrove, so doesn't that suggest that everything else I'm saying is true?''

 

[Haywain]

I am a bit worried as somebody else here said that Google Timeline can be edited and it's not a reliable proof. I can only hope they are able to verify the tickets being scanned out - if they are able to look at all the journeys I made for 8 months that is

Take a step back, and consider that you are trying to answer questions that have not yet been asked. Until you receive a letter from WMR you don't know what you will be asked, but if you are asked about these journeys you can then provide answers. We have seen several cases where posters have given answers without providing proof and these have been accepted. WMR will look at your answers and see how plausible they seem to be, and only if they take issue with the information you have provided will you need to find a way of backing it up. I think at this stage there is far to much being made of this.

 

[Cuthbert]

Fourth, Five Ways has barriers doesn't it? If you used an e-ticket there'll be a record of it going through the gates at Five Ways, and WMT will have (or can get) access to that data. Now, the problem might be that its a bit awkward asking them to do the checking if you can't remember where you were on what date, but I think a reply saying something like "I do use Five Ways a lot as I run in Xxxxxx Park, and I believe this accounts for about 75% of the tickets, and data from your barriers at Five Ways will support that" is reasonable

As I said previously FWY has barriers. Train Line can see when and where (which barrier) the ticket was used at.
To OP you must have an inkling when you ran on days I don't believe someone that enjoys running does not have some type of diary or schedule of when you fancy running. Or do you just rock up to FWY and think "Huh I fancy a run"?

 

[Haywain]

Train Line can see when and where (which barrier) the ticket was used at

So can WMR if they have the ticket UTNs.

 

[johnny_t]

Are any of your runs recorded on Strava ? That would be pretty solid...

 

[AlterEgo]

Firstly I'd like to say hello to everyone here and I would appreciate any support/advice I could get. I'm in a very bad position as I have been caught fare evasion two days ago. I am extremely embarrassed and ashamed to admit, I understand that there are no excuses to committing fare evasion and how it is an offence, and WMR are within their rights to prosecute me.

I have moved to Birmingham from Bromsgrove last year around June time, and I have been taking trips 3 to 4 times a month from New Street to Bromsgrove to visit family a that live there still. Shamefully, I would purchase a ticket from New street to Five Ways (the first station after) so I could get through the barriers, saving a total of £4.40. Looking back at it, I am truly stupid for thinking I will get away with it.

What tickets have you been using to return from Bromsgrove? You must have returned home.

Now the biggest problem I have - I routinely take the train to Five Ways so I can go jogging in a nearby park.

This sounds inherently unlikely. There are no large parks near Five Ways, nor, if your closest station is indeed New Street, does it make a great deal of sense to take the train to cover a 0.9 mile walk when your goal is to go jogging. As you go on to say:

I only purchase a one-way ticket because I am walking on my way back home (which isn't far away).

Yes, it’s not far away, so why would you take the train? You undermine your line of reasoning here.

To anyone with a pair of eyes this looks like I have been fare evading on my way to Bromsgrove for multiple days a week. How could I possibly prove that the tickets for Five Ways are actually for going to Five Ways.

If your e-tickets were used at Five Ways I wouldn’t worry about it, as this conclusively puts you exiting the system there.

To add another layer to my incredibly messy situation, and I know and am being incredibly regretul and full of anxiety - I have received a fine for not having a timely bought ticket before - on the same route to Bromsgrove.

When was this, and when you say “timely bought ticket”, was this because you purchased a ticket when you saw an inspector coming?