WMR evidence request

[adviceseeker7]

I got caught with a partial ticket not covering the full journey and paid the penalty fare straight away.

I've stupidly done this a couple of times before (I have a digital trace) and have now received this email from WMR.

"Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud. West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.

At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened to prevent further action being contemplated."

I'm keen to settle this out of court. I am remorseful and will certainly not do this again - I've learnt my lesson big time! I've seen a few other similar posts on here where the individual has written a letter to apologise and offer to pay etc.

Is the best way forward? Grateful for feedback on my response, will write it now.

 

[dakta]

Hang on because you'll get some good advice here.

Whilst I believe in accountability, and from what you've said there has been some misconduct shall we say, looking at this particular phrase in particular:

"At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened"

The devils advocate in me interprets that as 'in the absence of providing any information on how we think you're guilty, would you like to provide some evidence that you are innocent?'

to which my gut response would be 'would you like to provide some evidence that I'm not?'

I think the devil is going to be in this detail, if they have it there could be an issue for you. But why are they fishing, because that's what this email effectively is.

You've done something wrong, the company are onto that fact, but I it feels a bit that need a bit of help your side to seal the deal, so take the advice you get from here seriously because it's not your job to incriminate yourself. You will get some good advice here.

In the meantime, don't do it again - you have every right to a defence, and you've every right to not do the work for the train company but theft from the railways is ultimately a crime and on that basis, I'm very supportive of companies trying to recoup their losses, though it should be done properly.

 

[adviceseeker7]

Dear WMR,

Thank you for your email dated XXX. I hope my response finds you well.

I am writing to apologise for the incident of having a partial ticket on XXXX. I am sincerely remorseful for my irresponsible behaviour, particularly as you will have noticed I have failed to pay the correct fare on other occasions.

Taking full responsibility, I understand my actions were against the law, and I am extremely sorry for inconvenience or frustration that my actions may have caused. Your letter has brought to my attention the seriousness of my actions and the impact fare evasions have on the railways, and I will not make this error of judgement again.

I understand your determination to enforce people who evade fares and am committing to accepting appropriate consequences of my actions. I assure you that I have learned from this experience, my inappropriate behaviour will never be repeated and I am committed to strictly adhering all regulations governing public transport.

I am keen to settle this matter amicably without the need for court action, and seek your understanding and consideration. I am willing to rectify the situation immediately by paying the full amount of unpaid fares, and any additional administrative costs or compensation incurred in dealing with this. I would be grateful if you could please set out the amount of outstanding fares, your costs, and details of how to make payment, by reply.

Once again, I am truly sorry for my actions and will to cooperate fully in resolving this. I look forward to hearing from you and hopefully bringing the matter to a satisfactory conclusion.

Many thanks,
XXX

 

[dakta]

Just hang fire for one of the board experts, I feel this is a 'less is more' situation.

 

[WesternLancer]

As @dakta says, you need to be very careful on how you reply to this - so hold off responding until you get advice on here.

Have they given you a deadline or indicated what they might do if they have not heard from you by x date?

Basically they have noted that the Penalty Fares were not 'teaching you a lesson' and want to take this further.

 

[adviceseeker7]

Hang on because you'll get some good advice here.

Whilst I believe in accountability, and from what you've said there has been some misconduct shall we say, looking at this particular phrase in particular:

"At this stage we would be grateful if you would provide any evidence to support the claim that none of the above legislation has been contravened"

The devils advocate in me interprets that as 'in the absence of providing any information on how we think you're guilty, would you like to provide some evidence that you are innocent?'

to which my gut response would be 'would you like to provide some evidence that I'm not?'

I think the devil is going to be in this detail, if they have it there could be an issue for you. But why are they fishing, because that's what this email effectively is.

You've done something wrong, the company are onto that fact, but I it feels a bit that need a bit of help your side to seal the deal, so take the advice you get from here seriously because it's not your job to incriminate yourself. You will get some good advice here.

In the meantime, don't do it again - you have every right to a defence, and you've every right to not do the work for the train company but theft from the railways is ultimately a crime and on that basis, I'm very supportive of companies trying to recoup their losses, though it should be done properly.

Thank you, I appreciate this. I didn't really know how to respond to the line about providing evidence - it makes sense to me just to admit it and be co-operative?

I certainly won't do it again, I've very much learnt my lesson and regret my actions!

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you, I appreciate this. I didn't really know how to respond to the line about providing evidence - it makes sense to me just to admit it and be co-operative?

The problem is that whilst you might see this as 'doing the right thing' and fessing up (which they might appreciate!) they might see it as handing them all the evidence they need (ie an admission) to take you to court, prosecute you and win.

If you can, I'd wait to weigh it all up over the weekend before deciding how you want to go about responding.

Doing the right thing is admirable, but that is to be considered against the worst case outcome, which could be a criminal record that I am sure you'd prefer to avoid.

 

[adviceseeker7]

As @dakta says, you need to be very careful on how you reply to this - so hold off responding until you get advice on here.

Have they given you a deadline or indicated what they might do if they have not heard from you by x date?

Basically they have noted that the Penalty Fares were not 'teaching you a lesson' and want to take this further.

There was no deadline to respond. I was told at the time my PF was issued that they would look into my digital booking account, so I was expecting this!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2023 ==

Just hang fire for one of the board experts, I feel this is a 'less is more' situation.

Great, thank you.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

How many times roughly is a couple? how much should the fare have been each time?

As if this is going to be a substantial amount I would maybe suggest that speaking to a solicitor first might be best course of action

 

[John R]

I guess a key question is would the evidence of numerous short tickets the same as the one produced on the day the OP was stopped be sufficient evidence to convince a magistrate, in the absence of a compelling reason as to why they were purchased?

 

[dakta]

I suppose that would test the limits of what we mean by reasonable doubt, because whilst the trips might be identical to the incident where the OP was guilty and the incident was handled, it would need to be proven that these were in fact short, they could actually be legitimate - now, as a layman i wouldn't believe that for a moment but in a courtroom? I don't know, it could be a bit risky.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I suppose that would test the limits of what we mean by reasonable doubt, because whilst the trips might be identical to the incident where the OP was guilty and the incident was handled, it would need to be proven that these were in fact short, they could actually be legitimate - now, as a layman i wouldn't believe that for a moment but in a courtroom? I don't know, it could be a bit risky.

As you say, it depends on what is meant by 'beyond reasonable doubt' : this is not the same as 'beyond all doubt' - a magistrate or jury is allowed to see that it is conceivable that there is some other explanation - it's just that the other explanation is staggeringly unlikely. Neither is it as loose as 'more likely than not' which is the test for a civil (not criminal) matter.

As in this case the OP accepts that they have done it before, and as (both legally and morally) we can't advise them to lie and say that it didn't happen, it seems to me that if the railway allege that (on the basis of tickets previously bought, and the undoubted incident where the OP was caught) this has happened before and the OP doesn't offer a defence (because the only defence would be a lie) a court would have no difficulty in finding the allegation proved beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[dakta]

Indeed... My hunch is that this won't get to a courtroom to find out (though that's a total guess), I think this is an opportunistic fishing expedition. We know the OP has said they've done it before, and that denying would be a lie - we know that from whats in the thread - I'm going to assume the TOC at this point don't know that and that the OP *could* argue that the trip was legitimate.

Would it do any harm for the OP not to offer any comment at this stage? We're not obviously going to advise the OP to lie, but it's the TOC's allegation to prove.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Indeed... My hunch is that this won't get to a courtroom to find out (though that's a total guess), I think this is an opportunistic fishing expedition. We know the OP has said they've done it before, and that denying would be a lie - we know that from whats in the thread - I'm going to assume the TOC at this point don't know that and that the OP *could* argue that the trip was legitimate.

Would it do any harm for the OP not to offer any comment at this stage?

I think this rather overlooks what WMR wrote:

Further investigations into this matter have been carried out, including a review of the ticket records. It would appear, at this stage, that this may be a case of fraud.

WMR have looked at the records. They know what tickets the OP has bought. If the OP does anything other than tell the whole truth, then WMR will think that they have something to hide (and on what the OP has told us, WMR will be right).

The OP tells us that they're

Ikeen to settle this out of court. I am remorseful and will certainly not do this again

Failing to co-operate will not get the railway to offer an out of court settlement. Neither will ignoring things that the railway knows to have happened, or saying things that the railway knows to be untrue.

Realistically the only option that may lead to an out of court settlement is to fully co-operate. This means that if the OP has done it before they should admit it.

 

[dakta]

Well I can only state my opinion but I would never myself be comfortable responding to an invitation 'to declare your innocence' when I'm not even being told what events or charges are going to go against me.

Whilst I am against ticket misused, you're not obliged to do the TOC's work.

 

[30907]

I think a response would be in order to the effect that you cannot comment on hypothetical other occasions without having specific detail of these.

Incidentally, if the incident which triggered the investigation was disposed of by way of Penalty Fare, it cannot be the subject of further proceedings, surely?

 

[skyhigh]

Incidentally, if the incident which triggered the investigation was disposed of by way of Penalty Fare, it cannot be the subject of further proceedings, surely?

In certain circumstances (particularly if the Penalty Fare was not appealed) the PF can be cancelled and the TOC look to prosecute instead. But in this case, there's no evidence they're planning to do this and it could easily be a fishing expedition to look to gain a confession leading to a settlement/prosecution for the previous occurrences that they otherwise wouldn't have the evidence for and weren't covered by the PF.

 

[Hadders]

This is an interesting case. I am not legally qualified and this is something you might want to take appropriate advice on.

My view is that WMR would not be successful if they prosecuted you. They would need to prove to a court beyond all reasonable doubt that an offence had been comitted and purchasing tickets, however suspicious it might look, is not in itself a criminal offence. They would need to prove that you travelled with invalid tickets, and they are unlikely to have this evidence so would be relying on a confession from you. Fundamentally, you are not required to incriminate yourself.

It is highly likely that if you co-operate with WMR that they will agree to settle out of court which would cost you the value of the fares avoided plus an administration fee. This would give you certainty that the matter has been dealt with. On the other hand, unless you confess to WMR it's likely that WMR will have insufficient evidence to do anything further.

As I see it you have two choices:

1. Co-operate with WMR, tell them what you've done, they will likely agree an out of court settlement which will make the matter go away
2. Do nothing, WMR will likely not be able to do anything else but there's a small chance of them knowing or finding out something more

 

[adviceseeker7]

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I saw a similar post on here, and looks like they received the same wording from WMR. They wrote a letter and were able to deal with it in an out of court settlement.

Caught Using a Child Ticket on West Midlands Train

Hello everyone, please I need advice on what to do. Sometime in the beginning of the year, I presented a child ticket on a west Midlands train, and got caught. The conductor asked for my age and I told him and I was told I had to buy the correct ticket, and I immediately paid the full fare. I...

www.railforums.co.uk

I feel like I should co-operate and do that as well, it's the right thing to do and hopefully I won't be prosecuted.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2023 ==



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Hi all, an update from me. My case was closed very quickly (yesterday), thanks for all your advice, it was really helpful.

I wrote WMR a response on Sunday apologising for the original incident and said I would co-operate fully with any further payments (but I didn't admit to fraud). They replied quickly with a much more amicable email.

I was then asked to provide my railcard which was fine, and they set out the incidents where I'd bought partial tickets.

I paid the full amount for these tickets again (despite the partial fare I'd already paid), and had a £150 admin fee. And then of course I paid the £50 for my original penalty fare.

All in all, I ended up paying WMR £275 more than I should have paid for the tickets. So I've definitely learned my lesson!

Anyone reading this, make sure you have the right tickets and don't listen to people who say they won't get checked!