WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

[Halish Railway]

Wasn't there a rumour these would end up on the Nuneaton - Leamingtons at some point too, for which 4 car would be definite overkill?

I’ve seen it mentioned that Nuneaton to Leamington will be worked by two-carriage 196s from May. How advanced crew training is at Leamington depot I don’t know.

The 172s that currently work the route are required to bolster capacity on the Snow Hill lines. Quick side note, WMR clearly intend to use pairs of 172s including a non-gangwayed unit on the Shakespeare line as evidenced by the removal of request stops as to remove the requirement for the train to be fully walkthrough.

 

[RailWonderer]

Otherwise known as the 80x Standard seat (but more padding, which may make it a lot better - let's see how it lasts).



There is one more window, the windows are narrower and the seats aligned to them, and the doors are nearer to quarters than thirds. The size looks similar because they're also vertically shorter by a few inches. Lighting on the 197 is direct, on the 196 is indirect (shines sideways and uses the ceiling as a diffuser) and has spotlights which gives a much classier look.

Ah yes looking closely I can see, it's subtle. I haven't been on either yet though I imagine the ambiance is much nicer on the 196s for that reason, and the 197s more 'dentist clinic' like.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah yes looking closely I can see, it's subtle. I haven't been on either yet though I imagine the ambiance is much nicer on the 196s for that reason, and the 197s more 'dentist clinic' like.

Yep.

If only we could have a hybrid of both - the ambiance and colour scheme of the 196 which is warm and welcoming, and the better seats* and better legroom of the 197. That would I think be as good as a CAF can get. I don't wholly get why TfW has gone for such a stark interior scheme on their units.

* Yes, I said a Fainsa Sophia was good. It's just possible that TfW's modified cushion will solve the "metal bar" issue, which is the only issue I have with them.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

There are benefits to 2 car sets - they're more efficient for depot space for example, you can split a 2 + 2 and move it about as needed.

Wasn't there a rumour these would end up on the Nuneaton - Leamingtons at some point too, for which 4 car would be definite overkill?

May time I believe for the Leamington service introduction

 

[SuperLuke2334]

RE the comments about train length extensions, the 196s have ASDO but it has been isolated and therefore running trains as 6 cars isn't currently possible due to platform lengths. I'd imagine reinstating the ASDO will need extra training too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

RE the comments about train length extensions, the 196s have ASDO but it has been isolated and therefore running trains as 6 cars isn't currently possible due to platform lengths. I'd imagine reinstating the ASDO will need extra training too.

What was the reason for isolation? Does it not work properly?

I'm sure in time it will be reinstated.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

What was the reason for isolation? Does it not work properly?

I'm sure in time it will be reinstated.

Does it require hardware at stations? If so, probably were never installed. Pre COVID the H&S working group for conductors were involved in risk assessing ASDO but it seemed to not get anywhere before I moved depots

 

[SuperLuke2334]

What was the reason for isolation? Does it not work properly?

I'm sure in time it will be reinstated.

Not sure to be honest. I expect they didn't think they'd need more than 4 coaches.

Does it require hardware at stations? If so, probably were never installed. Pre COVID the H&S working group for conductors were involved in risk assessing ASDO but it seemed to not get anywhere before I moved depots

I'm under the impression that 197 ASDO works off the GPS system and doesn't require station hardware so that may be the same case here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does it require hardware at stations? If so, probably were never installed. Pre COVID the H&S working group for conductors were involved in risk assessing ASDO but it seemed to not get anywhere before I moved depots

Certainly the 195 SDO is GPS based (the downside of which being that at any given station it can only work on the shortest platform length by default, because GPS isn't accurate enough to know which platform it's at, plus it doesn't mitigate stopping short).

 

[craigybagel]

Not sure to be honest. I expect they didn't think they'd need more than 4 coaches.

I'm under the impression that 197 ASDO works off the GPS system and doesn't require station hardware so that may be the same case here.

Certainly the 195 SDO is GPS based (the downside of which being that at any given station it can only work on the shortest platform length by default, because GPS isn't accurate enough to know which platform it's at, plus it doesn't mitigate stopping short).

To the best of my knowledge 197 ASDO is indeed GPS based. For most double track stations it can cope with different platform lengths by working off what direction the train is running. At so called "complex" stations where there is the possibility of multiple platform options the conductors are able to manually operate the SDO themselves. The same will happen on the rare occasions that a train needs to call at a platform in the opposite direction to what would be the norm.

I suspect the fact the 196s did not come with guards panels may have complicated matters and make it more difficult to implement ASDO, but I don't know for definite.

 

[172007]

As ASDO and GPS seem to be the latest topic any chance any one knows the answer to the question. Which Global Positioninflg System do they actually use. The US GPS system, Glonas, Galileo or a combination? These systems all have their weakness strong points like accuracy and also as the US GPS is US department for defence could be switched off without notice, same with the Russian Glonas system where as EU Galileo I don't believe can be as its run by the EU and not a single states Military.

 

[DavidGrain]

As ASDO and GPS seem to be the latest topic any chance any one knows the answer to the question. Which Global Positioninflg System do they actually use. The US GPS system, Glonas, Galileo or a combination? These systems all have their weakness strong points like accuracy and also as the US GPS is US department for defence could be switched off without notice, same with the Russian Glonas system where as EU Galileo I don't believe can be as its run by the EU and not a single states Military.

I thought it was announced that we could not use Galileo after Brexit although we had paid for it.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I thought it was announced that we could not use Galileo after Brexit although we had paid for it.

Surely companies can still pay for access though?

 

[boxerdog]

I’ve seen it mentioned that Nuneaton to Leamington will be worked by two-carriage 196s from May. How advanced crew training is at Leamington depot I don’t know.

The 172s that currently work the route are required to bolster capacity on the Snow Hill lines. Quick side note, WMR clearly intend to use pairs of 172s including a non-gangwayed unit on the Shakespeare line as evidenced by the removal of request stops as to remove the requirement for the train to be fully walkthrough.

There is one driver from Coventry and Leamington on each training course plus there is also a guards training course running currently.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

As ASDO and GPS seem to be the latest topic any chance any one knows the answer to the question. Which Global Positioninflg System do they actually use. The US GPS system, Glonas, Galileo or a combination? These systems all have their weakness strong points like accuracy and also as the US GPS is US department for defence could be switched off without notice, same with the Russian Glonas system where as EU Galileo I don't believe can be as its run by the EU and not a single states Military.

The class 196 uses Glonass and has a back up of wheel rotation.

 

[newtownmgr]

What was the reason for isolation? Does it not work properly?

I'm sure in time it will be reinstated.

ASDO works with the driver releasing the doors. Thankfully common sense has prevailed & these units will be worked with the guard having full control of the doors,hence no asdo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

Does it require hardware at stations? If so, probably were never installed. Pre COVID the H&S working group for conductors were involved in risk assessing ASDO but it seemed to not get anywhere before I moved depots

Doesn’t require hardware at stations as GWR use it on the IET’s for the driver to release the doors. It works with gps coordinates for each station being installed on the units software.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

I’ve seen it mentioned that Nuneaton to Leamington will be worked by two-carriage 196s from May. How advanced crew training is at Leamington depot I don’t know.

The 172s that currently work the route are required to bolster capacity on the Snow Hill lines. Quick side note, WMR clearly intend to use pairs of 172s including a non-gangwayed unit on the Shakespeare line as evidenced by the removal of request stops as to remove the requirement for the train to be fully walkthrough.

Been using non walk through 172’s on the Stratfords for a long time. The guard merely positions himself in the leading set at the previous stop. WMT pays network rail the same amount to access the station whether it’s a request stop or not, so have merely decided to make all the stops booked rather than request. It actually makes sense as it means the timings will be adjusted to allow for it. At present if the train stops at all the requests it will end up late & conversely carries a risk of running early if stops are not required.

 

[boxerdog]

ASDO works with the driver releasing the doors. Thankfully common sense has prevailed & these units will be worked with the guard having full control of the doors,hence no asdo.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==


Doesn’t require hardware at stations as GWR use it on the IET’s for the driver to release the doors. It works with gps coordinates for each station being installed on the units software.

WMT were looking at having track based equipment fitted to their entire network, what happened to this I don't know. I suspect who controls the doors has stopped installation of the equipment as I'm sure there would be a cost to the business that isn't needed due to guard dispatch continuing.

 

[newtownmgr]

WMT were looking at having track based equipment fitted to their entire network, what happened to this I don't know. I suspect who controls the doors has stopped installation of the equipment as I'm sure there would be a cost to the business that isn't needed due to guard dispatch continuing.

Not sure about track side equipment & also whether it would work in absolute block areas.

 

[Peter Sarf]

.......................

The class 196 uses Glonass and has a back up of wheel rotation.

So Russian satelites.

Surely companies can still pay for access though?

Oh dear - that won't be possible while we are not allowed to do business with Russian businesses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why on earth use Glonass when almost all other stuff uses GPS?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Why on earth use Glonass when almost all other stuff uses GPS?

I thought Glonass was just one of the GPS systems ?.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought Glonass was just one of the GPS systems ?

GPS is the original and ubiquitous one controlled by the US.

 

[Class172]

I thought Glonass was just one of the GPS systems ?.

Glonass is one of the satellite navigation systems available. GPS is the version originally developed by the US military that since became commonly used commercially, and there is a european equivalent called Gallileo.

 

[Amnesiac]

May time I believe for the Leamington service introduction

Correct, traction training ongoing at Coventry.

 

[XAM2175]

As ASDO and GPS seem to be the latest topic any chance any one knows the answer to the question. Which Global Positioninflg System do they actually use. The US GPS system, Glonas, Galileo or a combination? These systems all have their weakness strong points like accuracy and also as the US GPS is US department for defence could be switched off without notice, same with the Russian Glonas system where as EU Galileo I don't believe can be as its run by the EU and not a single states Military.

Why on earth use Glonass when almost all other stuff uses GPS?

I thought Glonass was just one of the GPS systems ?.

The generic term for them is Global Navigation Satellite System. A large number of receivers made in the last ten-odd years can use multiple systems - even many Android phones (Apple were a bit slower on the uptake). Only cheap receivers, or those specified poorly, will be limited to a single system, and that's usually GPS.

Surely companies can still pay for access though?

Oh dear - that won't be possible while we are not allowed to do business with Russian businesses.

GPS, Galileo, GLONASS, and BeiDou all offer free access to their basic-precision modes. Galileo's "High Accuracy" mode has also been made freely available.

I thought it was announced that we could not use Galileo after Brexit although we had paid for it.

This is untrue. However, because the UK chose to stop participating in the development and upkeep of the Galileo system, UK-based organisations cannot utilise the high-security maximum-precision "Regulated Service" mode. The money "paid" was €1.4 billion towards system development, of a total €10 billion up to 2018.

There is a brief bit of guidance here:

UK involvement in the EU Space Programme

How the UK participates in the EU Space Programme, including Copernicus and EU Space Surveillance and Tracking (EUSST).

www.gov.uk

 

[Wolfie]

I thought it was announced that we could not use Galileo after Brexit although we had paid for it.

Without saying too much because l can't (OSA etc) the UK dropped out of aspects of the programme which were only open, due to security aspects and uses, to EU members. As a non-EU member we were not allowed to build hardware either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

So Russian satelites.

Oh dear - that won't be possible while we are not allowed to do business with Russian businesses.

Particularly given that the primary purpose of GLONASS is defence.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

I thought Glonass was just one of the GPS systems ?.

GLONASS is a GPS. "GPS" is the original US system... It's a bit like calling all vacuum cleaners a "Hoover"....

 

[SuperLuke2334]

Does anyone have an update on when these are due to start on Herefords?

 

[meld3]

Surely talking about Russian GPS systems is slightly off-topic ??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely talking about Russian GPS systems is slightly off-topic ??

It came up because it seems CAF use GLONASS for their SDO, which is a bit of an odd decision!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Does anyone have an update on when these are due to start on Herefords?

Think it's April, Sure @newtownmgr has a more up to date timeframe

 

[newtownmgr]

Should be from Mon 3rd April but only one diagram. Worcs/New St/Malvern/New St then ECS to Tyseley. Back out later to do Worcs/New St/Worcs.