WMR Class 196 Build and Implementation

[Undiscovered]

Are the 197's guard panels the same as on 195s (on "left" at front and on "right" at back of carriage)?
And is this same layout planned for 196s?

That layout is planned for the 196s.
Notably, there's no panels at the doors for the wheelchair area.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

That layout is planned for the 196s.
Notably, there's no panels at the doors for the wheelchair area.

So any wheelchair users will have to have the guard move up to them after unlocking the doors?
Or are they good at serving on the station side?

 

[Undiscovered]

So any wheelchair users will have to have the guard move up to them after unlocking the doors?
Or are they good at serving on the station side?

On a 170, guards can have the ramp ready to use in the area and then release the doors from the local panel on arrival at the station.
With the 196s, guard will release the doors from the nearest panel (hopefully the previous carriage) and then walk through to the wheelchair area to remove the ramp from stowage, ready for use.
Station staff are very good, but it's always prudent to be close at hand to put the ramp out,if needed. Stops delays sending out a 'please explain'.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Are there some stations on WMT that wheelchair users can use on their own (level boarding) or does every journey need assistance?

 

[Undiscovered]

Are there some stations on WMT that wheelchair users can use on their own (level boarding) or does every journey need assistance?

Every station requires use of the ramp. And on the 196s at certain stations, a bridging plate and the ramp.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Are there any ideas (even trials) of renovating stations to enable wheelchair passengers to work on their own?

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Are there any ideas (even trials) of renovating stations to enable wheelchair passengers to work on their own?

No. Will never happen

 

[GWVillager]

Are there any ideas (even trials) of renovating stations to enable wheelchair passengers to work on their own?

The problem isn't so much the stations but rather the trains. You'd need a Class 755 style varied height floor if you wanted unassisted level boarding, which the 196s of course do not have. There could definitely be an argument made that they should have been designed in that way, especially as wheelchair boarding takes so long at present, often causing havoc to punctuality.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The problem isn't so much the stations but rather the trains. You'd need a Class 755 style varied height floor if you wanted unassisted level boarding, which the 196s of course do not have. There could definitely be an argument made that they should have been designed in that way, especially as wheelchair boarding takes so long at present, often causing havoc to punctuality.

I would've hoped this kind of setup would be a modern standard, are TfW's FLIRTs gonna have this ability?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

I would've hoped this kind of setup would be a modern standard, are TfW's FLIRTs gonna have this ability?

Yes they do have level boarding.

 

[Jacob Porrett]

Fair point point, at least it wasn't as bad as those TFW 231's! Was 196111 one of the units that have entered passenger service yet?

Yes it has.

 

[GalaxyDog]

The 196s were built in a rush. They were built to a price (cheap as possible) and an agenda (DOO / eradication of the guard grade.)

They are supposed to be retro fitted with guards control panels on the units, but this has far from commenced. In fact, the agreement from the autumn 2019 strike settlement on WMT was that they would be fitted before entering service.

Having caught up with a colleague who works these, he reports an interesting side to the query on here about the disability area: indeed, there are no door panels in the wheelchair access area meaning a guard will have to walk from the rear cab upto the front coach to get onboard, grab the ramp, set it up, assist the passengers on, put the ramp away, and then walk all the way back to the rear because, unlike on the 170s, they can't just dispatch from the nearest door and save time.

Apparently there were three units out today and one had an absolute horror of a show with a 60+min delay while having had multiple breakdowns on route during the course of the day.

 

[D365]

They were built to a price (cheap as possible) and an agenda (DOO / eradication of the guard grade.)

They are supposed to be retro fitted with guards control panels on the units, but this has far from commenced.

And there’s your reason why.

 

[GalaxyDog]

And there’s your reason why.

Built to a cheap price, and it shows. Having had photos shown, vital electrics are exposed to the weather as well as numerous other issues.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Built to a cheap price, and it shows. Having had photos shown, vital electrics are exposed to the weather as well as numerous other issues.

People money conscious never seem to realise that less money equates to worse products.
Might look good pre-production but we all have seen how that ends.

 

[Geeves]

In regards to cheapness they have the same engines, likely the same electronics and TMS and same body shells (roughly) as 195s and they were two million each, so I am assuming 2 and 4 million per 196? What's the going rate for an 'expensive' DMU? To be fair the 195s have settled down better at Northern now. You'd hope these will too in time.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

In regards to cheapness they have the same engines, likely the same electronics and TMS and same body shells (roughly) as 195s and they were two million each, so I am assuming 2 and 4 million per 196? What's the going rate for an 'expensive' DMU? To be fair the 195s have settled down better at Northern now. You'd hope these will too in time.

I never personally noticed many physical issues with the 195s, but I do encounter a good few software errors:

Saying some station names too loud
Doors announcing they aren't in use until they get unlocked (which everyone just knows)
Displays having no idea what side the doors open, often showing the wrong side and then correcting itself
Reporting that every carriage on the train is too far and you have to move forwards

These same issues I've seen lesser so on 331s (although I've used them a lot less so it's fair)

Have these same issues been seen on 196s or have they just not been out long enough to draw a conclusion yet?

 

[Brubulus]

The problem isn't so much the stations but rather the trains. You'd need a Class 755 style varied height floor if you wanted unassisted level boarding, which the 196s of course do not have. There could definitely be an argument made that they should have been designed in that way, especially as wheelchair boarding takes so long at present, often causing havoc to punctuality.

You could have just had an electronically deployed wheelchair ramp under one of the doors. Seen it on some buses and it works very well, not requiring any sort of varied height floor on the train.

 

[GalaxyDog]

How about computers that went tits up during the big freeze and refused to activate the trains until it reached +5celsius in temperature? It meant all the 196s were out for the two days or so things got really bad cold wise.

 

[D365]

I never personally noticed many physical issues with the 195s, but I do encounter a good few software errors:

Saying some station names too loud
Doors announcing they aren't in use until they get unlocked (which everyone just knows)
Displays having no idea what side the doors open, often showing the wrong side and then correcting itself
Reporting that every carriage on the train is too far and you have to move forwards

First two aren’t software errors. #1 sounds like poor equalisation of audio file volumes.

 

[QSK19]

Sounds like the 196s are a fundamental step backwards compared to the 170/5s. I know that many EMR users (myself included) have decried the fact that other TOCs are getting new trains whilst we get half-knackered hand-me-downs; but this whole 196 debacle has made me quite relieved that we’re getting the 170s and not anything like these!

Very much hoping that WMR can get the issues sorted, because its passengers deserve much better than they’ve had thus far.

 

[Rhydgaled]

What's the going rate for an 'expensive' DMU?

No 'expensive' DMUs have been built for the UK at all recently, so I'm not sure that question can be answered. If the money was available for an 'expensive' unit, wouldn't you build E-DMUs (electro-diesel multiple units, a.k.a. bi-modes like the GA FLIRTs) or IPEMUs (EMUs with range-extender batteries) instead of DMUs?

 

[Razorblades]

No 'expensive' DMUs have been built for the UK at all recently, so I'm not sure that question can be answered

I think the Stadler Class 231 units built for TfW qualify. The total contract value probably includes other classes, though, as the linked piece below suggests.

Stadler delivers first two Class 231 FLIRT trains to Transport for Wales

Train manufacturer Stadler has delivered the first two new Class 231 FLIRT trains to Transport for Wales (TfW).

www.railway-technology.com

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

People money conscious never seem to realise that less money equates to worse products.
Might look good pre-production but we all have seen how that ends.

Hitachis class 8xx are the most expensive trains in the UK but that didn't stop them being revealed with fundamental problems thats going to take years to fully resolve.
The core issue here is we should have just settled on one design got it right and mass produced them rather than letting each operator do its own thing specifying what it wants.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like the 196s are a fundamental step backwards compared to the 170/5s.

They're really not. The 170s, while they are the more comfortable version with the heavyweight seats, are getting VERY tired now. I'd take a row out and respace the seats (accepting that that would break alignment) and maybe add standbacks as per Northern's units, but overall once the niggles are ironed out they will be great at the south and west Birmingham local services they were ordered for. Quality feel, too.

 

[anamyd]

They're really not. The 170s, while they are the more comfortable version with the heavyweight seats, are getting VERY tired now. I'd take a row out and respace the seats (accepting that that would break alignment) and maybe add standbacks as per Northern's units, but overall once the niggles are ironed out they will be great at the south and west Birmingham local services they were ordered for. Quality feel, too.

The 170s don't have anywhere near as many problems as the 196s though, or maybe I'm misunderstanding the word "fundamental"?

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think the Stadler Class 231 units built for TfW qualify. The total contract value probably includes other classes, though, as the linked piece below suggests.

Stadler delivers first two Class 231 FLIRT trains to Transport for Wales

Train manufacturer Stadler has delivered the first two new Class 231 FLIRT trains to Transport for Wales (TfW).

www.railway-technology.com

£800m divided by roughly 150 units is about £5.3m per unit or (more roughly still) perhaps around £1.7m to £2.6m per carriage. Given that includes the (presumably cheap) class 197s that would make the Stadler units rather expensive but even then the 231s are diesel-electric (DEMUs) not DMUs.

Hitachis class 8xx are the most expensive trains in the UK but that didn't stop them being revealed with fundamental problems thats going to take years to fully resolve.
The core issue here is we should have just settled on one design got it right and mass produced them rather than letting each operator do its own thing specifying what it wants.

Your own example hinders your argument - how could one design have satisfied the needs of the Hitachi 8xx and CAF 19x orders? They were built to serve very different markets.

 

[Undiscovered]

The 170s don't have anywhere near as many problems as the 196s though, or maybe I'm misunderstanding the word "fundamental"?

The 170s aren't fantastic.
Unless they get a thorough overhaul before being put back into service, they struggle to accelerate, in the heat and the Aircon for the cabs and saloons is less than ideal. Recently, the toilets have developed odd problems, shutting themselves out of use, and some have off electrical gremlins and won't play nicely with other units.
But at least they're known issues and can be fixed.

 

[Energy]

£800m divided by roughly 150 units is about £5.3m per unit or (more roughly still) perhaps around £1.7m to £2.6m per carriage. Given that includes the (presumably cheap) class 197s that would make the Stadler units rather expensive but even then the 231s are diesel-electric (DEMUs) not DMUs.

£800million invested into the new units can include depot upgrades etc. The aim is to get a big number for PR.

 

[Razorblades]

the 231s are diesel-electric (DEMUs) not DMUs.

Indeed, although strictly speaking they are still DMUs, the definition being that they are diesel-powered; the transmission type isn't covered by the basic acronym.