Without valid ticket

[Shropsdave]

hello

wonder if anyone can help me ! i boarded the "7.13 from Nantwich to Man Picc" this morning as normal, When I approached the door at Manchester station platform and guard asked for tickets by platform 10 i think and I pulled out my “weekly pass and photo ID” showed him my pass and said “its out of date” he replied “its out of date can you stand to the side”. I said “ I know the conductor never came around can I buy a ticket”, (the date was expired at 22 May, as I had annual leave last week) he replied “yes, stand there”. I was shocked that he then took me to the revenue officer (5 yards away) who then took my details. I explained the train is often busy and the conductor cant get down the train. The officer told me to buy a ticket once I walk into the station and await a letter.

I have been travelling on the train since September most days depending on meeting around the country and annual leave and have always purchased my tickets on the train as I board in Nantwich which has no ticket office and is a rural station. I have been on annual leave and it was a Monday morning and I did not see the conductor.

The officer told me it was a offence to show my pass which is out of date even though I said it was out of date

I have detailed records of purchased tickets and receipts I have for my journeys this year from January 2013 – April 2013, which total £750.10 for 4 months travel (£57.70 a week ticket). As I explained to the officer my company pay my rail costs that’s why I prefer to buy weekly tickets.

but Im extremely worried waiting for a letter and concerned of the outcome. I really cant see the issue all I wanted was to buy a ticket which I required for the week.

Any help would be great thanks

 

[maniacmartin]

Is it possible to buy the ticket you wanted from the Ticket Vending Machine at Nantwich?

 

[Shropsdave]

They have introduced a pay machine at the station in the last 2/3 weeks actually, but you can't pay with cash !

I have always brought on the train , rightly or wrongly..

 

[yorkie]

Well, you can pay on the train, but I guess the question is why didn't you ask to buy a ticket, and instead show an out of date ticket?

 

[sonic2009]

If my memory is correct, you boarded an Arriva Trains Wales serivce this morning. Was the revenue officer wearing a Northern Uniform or Badge at Manchester Piccadilly?

Did you show your out of date pass and explain that you needed to buy a new one before the revenue officer spoke to you?

 

[Shropsdave]

Thanks sonic, correct I did it was packed as normal

Well the guy who asked for my ticket had very poor English so I took his office number ! I told him I wanted a ticket and he said wait ,next think his collegue who said he was a "revenue or enforcer office" and took my details ... He said that the guard said I tried to go past him with that ticket which was out of date , which I strongly protested .. I wasn't even of the platform nevermind station
. I told the officer I wanted a ticket and explained I was on holiday last week he wasn't really bothered just wanted my details

I spoke to a conductor on way back and told me to complain to arrive or northern rail before I get the letter

Cheers

 

[sonic2009]

I think the fact you showed the pass to the ticket checker has caused them to think you are trying to avoid your fare. If you had approached them without showing your out of date pass first and asked to buy a ticket this may of been a different outcome.

I would write a letter to Northern, explaining your situation and await a reply. Did you in the end purchase your ticket from the ticket office at Manchester Piccadilly?

 

[156441]

Just to add some additional info for the fares boffins. All of the operators had there own RPO's out at Picc today and will do all week. Aside from ATW who Northern and Cross country staff were dealing with.

RPO's from TPE. northern, Virgin and cross country will be at Picc all week blocking all exits.

 

[sonic2009]

Just to add some additional info for the fares boffins. All of the operators had there own RPO's out at Picc today and will do all week. Aside from ATW who Northern and Cross country staff were dealing with.

RPO's from TPE. northern, Virgin and cross country will be at Picc all week blocking all exits.

Thanks for the information.

 

[Shropsdave]

I think your right the guy was confused and if I'm honest could not speak good English but I can't mention that can I !!

Yes I purchased a ticket at the station which is a week pass again

 

[bb21]

Is there any reason why you showed your out-of-date ticket?

 

[Shropsdave]

Well every time a conductor asks for ticket I hand over my pass/ ticket sometimes it can hve elapse by accident ! I was on holiday and was aware I needed to buy a ticket

I'm wide awake worrying , miss understanding I feel

 

[bb21]

I was trying to establish whether you showed your out-of-date pass because you needed to show the Photocard in order to purchase your weekly ticket (as was the case when you bought your weekly ticket from the ticket office). Was the Photocard in the same ticket wallet?

Did you pay cash at the ticket office?

 

[Shropsdave]

Yes it was te photo and ticket are in the wallet , I always hand it over
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I paid debit card at the counter cheers

 

[bb21]

The fact that you paid by card at the ticket office muddies the water somehow. Could you not have paid by card at the ticket machine at Nantwich? Does the ticket machine there sell weekly seasons? (Most others do AFAIK.)

If you had paid by cash on arrival, you could well argue that you had no opportunity to pay until then, but since you paid by card, that would not be true.

 

[Asian Demon]

There will be a revenue blockade at Picc all week with staff from all tocs concerned taking part. If a passenger has not purchased a ticket at first attempt, then they will not get any opportunity to purchase and will instead be cautioned and Mg11'd for prosecution. It's a very literal 'unless the passenger had no opportunity whatsoever, then you're done for'.

 

[Shropsdave]

I'm afraid not , for 9 months I have brought on the train, it always worked well until now

Are they likely to prosecute ?

 

[Yew]

Just because the OP has previously used card to pay for tickets, it is not indicative that this was the case this time.

 

[jb]

Just because the OP has previously used card to pay for tickets, it is not indicative that this was the case this time.

Huh? The OP said they did pay on arrival with card this time. Which is important since it may (<--------------- note that word) denote that the OP missed an opportunity to pay at origin.

 

[323235]

There will be a revenue blockade at Picc all week with staff from all tocs concerned taking part. If a passenger has not purchased a ticket at first attempt, then they will not get any opportunity to purchase and will instead be cautioned and Mg11'd for prosecution. It's a very literal 'unless the passenger had no opportunity whatsoever, then you're done for'.

What do you consider as no opportunity whatsoever?

If someone boards at an unstaffed station and the guard does not come through to sell tickets they will cautioned/mg11'd? I believe this counts as no opportunity whatsoever and therefore would be incorrect

Have guards been instructed to make themselves as visible as possible going through asking "does anyone need a ticket?"

This is what I usually tend to notice duing these big blocks.

 

[All Line Rover]

They have introduced a pay machine at the station in the last 2/3 weeks actually, but you can't pay with cash !

I have always brought on the train , rightly or wrongly..

They've introduced a TVM? That is recent! I travel from Nantwich regularly and there definitely wasn't a TVM the last time I was there (early May).

With regard to the OP's predicament, I can confirm that not being able to purchase a ticket on-board is a regular occurrence for passengers boarding between Shrewsbury and Crewe, especially on busy trains such as the 11:20 from Nantwich.

The guards change at Crewe. Nantwich to Crewe takes 8 or 9 minutes so the following three things can happen in this time:

• A small number of people board at Nantwich, the guard sells tickets to every one of them before arriving at Crewe
• A 'large' number of people (10+) board at Nantwich, the guard sells tickets to as many people as possible but is unable to sell tickets to everyone, especially if the train is packed and/or lots of people want to pay by card
• The guard doesn't bother selling tickets to anyone and sits in the back cab before disembarking at Crewe (this happens 1/3 of the time, even on quiet trains)

A new guard then embarks at Crewe. I have noticed that, even on a quiet train, where there is ample opportunity for the guard to walk through selling tickets, he/she sometimes doesn't bother, meaning passengers travelling from Nantwich have absolutely no opportunity to purchase a ticket before arriving at Manchester. This doesn't happen regularly on quiet trains, but it does happen occasionally. It happens regularly on busy trains.

I have twice complained at the 'Information Point' at Piccadilly about the risk of people from Nantwich being unfairly prosecuted for not holding a ticket. Twice I have been reassured that guards/RPIs/RPOs are aware of this and will allow people travelling from Nantwich/Whitchurch to purchase tickets on arrival at Piccadilly, unless the guard has definitely walked through the train checking and selling tickets to every passenger.

I think it is unacceptable that ATW are hounding passengers in this manner when for years they have made it difficult for passengers who want to buy or collect a ticket to do so. Introducing a TVM is an excellent improvement, as it allows passengers to collect pre-booked tickets before boarding, but ATW should put posters up at Nantwich saying that passengers intending to pay by card must do so using the new TVM at the station, unless the TVM does not sell the ticket they require.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Huh? The OP said they did pay on arrival with card this time. Which is important since it may (<--------------- note that word) denote that the OP missed an opportunity to pay at origin.

You cannot expect people, who have been paying on-board for years, to suddenly use a new TVM which they have never seen before, especially if there are no posters at the station telling people that they must use it before boarding if paying by card.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think the fact you showed the pass to the ticket checker has caused them to think you are trying to avoid your fare. If you had approached them without showing your out of date pass first and asked to buy a ticket this may of been a different outcome.

I agree this would increase suspicion, so I'm not saying the OP is guilt free. What I am saying is that because of the introduction of these TVMs (is it one for the station or one per platform?), there is the possibility for totally innocent passengers who have been travelling for years to end up in hot water simply because of ATW's apparent expectation that everyone must suddenly start using the new machine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have guards been instructed to make themselves as visible as possible going through asking "does anyone need a ticket?"

I have heard such announcements on Northern before but never on ATW. I agree that such announcements would class as an opportunity to purchase a ticket, but on ATW it would be preferable if the guard could lock the toilet doors after Stockport and make one last announcement before arriving at Manchester, just to make sure that no-one misses the announcement.

 

[northwichcat]

but on ATW it would be preferable if the guard could lock the toilet doors after Stockport and make one last announcement before arriving at Manchester, just to make sure that no-one misses the announcement.

Why lock the toilet? That sounds like a Network Rail proposal for increasing the amount taken by the chargeable toilets at Piccadilly. When Network Rail did increase the charge at Piccadilly many regional/Intercity operators publicised that they toilets available for free on the train and that their customers didn't need to pay again to use the toilet.

 

[Asian Demon]

What do you consider as no opportunity whatsoever?

If someone boards at an unstaffed station and the guard does not come through to sell tickets they will cautioned/mg11'd? I believe this counts as no opportunity whatsoever and therefore would be incorrect

Have guards been instructed to make themselves as visible as possible going through asking "does anyone need a ticket?"

This is what I usually tend to notice duing these big blocks.

They are doing this for people boarding at MANNED stations aka no excuse not to have a ticket. The excuses of 'oh I'll miss my train' and so forth doesn't fly when it's the same people every day. People who have boarded at unmanned stations are being given the benefit of the doubt and will be sold a ticket at the barriers.

This is also an effective check on whether the guard is going through or not. The staff at the blockade have been asking passengers if the guard went through or not. I know this because I've seen it first hand. I travelled from Reading to Manchester and had my ticket scrutinised like mad. This was a priv rate single. I was also asked if the Guard came through the train at all (which good for him he did, and he constantly advised both over PA and to individuals about the blockade at picc and to buy tickets). I for one go through asking if anyone requires a ticket. If people are not going to listen as I go through, then that's not my problem.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have heard such announcements on Northern before but never on ATW. I agree that such announcements would class as an opportunity to purchase a ticket, but on ATW it would be preferable if the guard could lock the toilet doors after Stockport and make one last announcement before arriving at Manchester, just to make sure that no-one misses the announcement.

I believe this refers to the so called fare evasion tactic used so well from places like Stockport. The one stop wonders as I like to call them.

 

[northwichcat]

If a passenger has not purchased a ticket at first attempt, then they will not get any opportunity to purchase and will instead be cautioned and Mg11'd for prosecution. It's a very literal 'unless the passenger had no opportunity whatsoever, then you're done for'.

Is that actually allowed? I know if you turn down the option to purchase at a ticket office you can be told that you can be forced to buy an Anytime Single/Return for your journey with no discounts available. However, not buying at the first opportunity isn't the same as refusing to pay. If they checked tickets after people have walked past the Travel Centre at Piccadilly (I know that's practically impossible) then they would have walked past the last opportunity to pay before leaving the station.

 

[bb21]

If a passenger passes an opportunity to pay then this could be interpreted as intention to fare evade. It does not have to be the last opportunity.

 

[Crossover]

If they checked tickets after people have walked past the Travel Centre at Piccadilly (I know that's practically impossible) then they would have walked past the last opportunity to pay before leaving the station.

Plus as far as I am aware, the concourse isn't a compulsary ticket area either, so aside from being very difficult, it wouldn't be workable anyway

 

[northwichcat]

Plus as far as I am aware, the concourse isn't a compulsary ticket area either, so aside from being very difficult, it wouldn't be workable anyway

That's why I said it would be practically impossible. A RPI could only stop the people they had seen coming off platforms and heading to the exit, not everyone.

 

[island]

As the OP chose not to use available ticketing facilities at his starting station and boarded the train without a ticket, he has committed an offence. The question of whether or not he may have shown something other than a valid ticket to the inspections staff is unclear, but at most will inform what exact offence he has committed.

Our experience here is that most Train Operating Companies will accept a sum of money to settle an issue like this as long as the person involved is not on record as a previous offender. The sum involved is usually slightly under £100.

The OP should wait for correspondence from the Train Operating Company involved and advise us on its content in order to receive more specific suggestions.

 

[northwichcat]

If a passenger passes an opportunity to pay then this could be interpreted as intention to fare evade. It does not have to be the last opportunity.

I've just checked the ATW wording used and it says the following:

Revenue protection officers patrol our trains and stations. To travel on a train it is your responsibility to buy a ticket at the FIRST available opportunity. Buying a ticket in advance of travel can save you time and money. If you have not purchased a ticket in advance or there are no facilities to buy at the station where your journey started, only then should you buy a ticket on the train or from other retail staff. If you are aged 16 or older you need to buy an appropriate adult ticket. Not buying the correct ticket can lead to prosecution and/or a fine.

So in the OP's case they can't argue that they have been treated differently to advertised. However, in the case of Northern:

You must buy your ticket from the ticket office or ticket vending machine before getting on the train. If the ticket office is closed or you board at an unstaffed station you can buy your ticket from the conductor on the train. If you avoid using the ticket office or vending machine when they’re available, the conductor will charge you the full Anytime Single/Return fare. Alternatively buy your ticket online at northernrail.org.

So someone travelling with Northern in the same situation could argue that it's advertised that Anytime Single/Return fares are sold on board even to people who ignored ticket selling facilities and that the service wasn't provided.

 

[Yew]

So someone travelling with Northern in the same situation could argue that it's advertised that Anytime Single/Return fares are sold on board even to people who ignored ticket selling facilities and that the service wasn't provided.

Northern are more than happy to ignore that section when it suits them.