Winter in Llandudno

[Llandudno]

Well winter is here, according to the rail network anyway.
No trains to Llandudno on Sundays from 9 September until next Easter.
Seems ridiculous that in this day and age there are no ‘winter’ (let alone autumn!) trains to North Wales largest seaside resort and the largest shopping area west of Chester.

I guess this a legacy of the old Sunday trading and drinking laws!

It is amazing how many people alight at the Junction expecting a connection to Llandudno, the buses are not well promoted and don’t really connect with trains, must be goldmine for the local taxis, who I think charge a premium rate on Sundays?

The new Welsh rail franchise quotes a minimum of 10% more trains on Sundays between Llandudno and Blaenau Ffestiniog, will this mean extending the summer season for three more weeks over the entire route until the end of September, or operating a service on the Llandudno to Llandudno Junction service all year round?

Also, when do you think these extra 10% will start operating?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do find the lack of a Sunday service on this route absolutely bizarre, I agree.

 

[Chester1]

I do find the lack of a Sunday service on this route absolutely bizarre, I agree.

Its due to the cost of having two signal boxes open for longer. The recent re-signalling work was meant to resolve the issue by transfering control of the lines to Holyhead and Llandudno to a ROC but the program was cut back to Llandudno Junction to save money.

 

[PHILIPE]

In other words, costs.

 

[31160]

That is mad, I can't believe this is even a thing

 

[Chester1]

In other words, costs.

Yes. Re-signalling past Llandudno Junction could not be justified by providing extra capacity because the two lines collectively roughly match the new capacity between Llandudno Junction and Chester to enable the new services planned under the new franchise. The cost of opperating services on the Llandudno branch on Sundays is greater than the fare revenue most of the year. The answer would have been for the WG to make all year Sunday services a bid requirement but for some reason they did not.

 

[northwichcat]

Out of interest are the Copper Mines and Great Orme Tramway open on Sundays in the autumn?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Surely it could be renegotiated as an added costed option to the franchise. Not exactly a hamlet is it ?

Note - the poor Sunday am services were greatly improved by London Midland negotiating for the Sunday morning opening of Ledbury SB (and re-casting their workings Worcester to New Street to run earlier to and from Hereford) , this was so succesfull that it was then rolled over into the next franchise as a "base requirement"

Surely worth asking the question ?

 

[30907]

Out of interest are the Copper Mines and Great Orme Tramway open on Sundays in the autumn?

Easter to October half term, 7/7, typical for a UK tourist attraction.

 

[tbtc]

It seems a crazy situation, and not helpful to the town (given that way that Llandudno seems to be trying to present itself as a year-round resort, with Venue Cymru etc - and the fact that the older demographic aren't restricted to school summer holidays - and even if it wasn't for the tourist attractions, it's surprising for a place with twenty thousand people to have no Sunday rail service, especially considering the town gets three hundred thousand train journeys a year on a six-days-a-week arrangement for half the year).

BUT (and I say this as a genuine question, not to pour cold water on the consensus that the town should get a year-round Sunday service), what kind of service would it deserve?

The Coast only has an hourly service on Winter Sundays (generally Crewe to Holyhead - no WAG staff requiring a Cardiff service!), so would it be a case of diverting those services in and out of Llandudno (adding a good half hour to the duration of services from Chester to Bangor etc)? Or finding a unit to do a shuttle to/from the Junction? Or something more ambitious? Llandudno - Chester couldn't sensibly be run as a bi-hourly service with one unit, so I guess that's out of the window?

(as I say, I'm not against the idea of a year-round Sunday service, I'm just not sure what the obvious/ easiest/ most cost-effective way of providing it would be)

 

[jamesst]

I do find the lack of a Sunday service on this route absolutely bizarre, I agree.

At the risk of re opening a whole can of worms (again) I find the Sunday services on many routes outside of London bizarre

 

[PHILIPE]

It seems a crazy situation, and not helpful to the town (given that way that Llandudno seems to be trying to present itself as a year-round resort, with Venue Cymru etc - and the fact that the older demographic aren't restricted to school summer holidays - and even if it wasn't for the tourist attractions, it's surprising for a place with twenty thousand people to have no Sunday rail service, especially considering the town gets three hundred thousand train journeys a year on a six-days-a-week arrangement for half the year).

BUT (and I say this as a genuine question, not to pour cold water on the consensus that the town should get a year-round Sunday service), what kind of service would it deserve?

The Coast only has an hourly service on Winter Sundays (generally Crewe to Holyhead - no WAG staff requiring a Cardiff service!), so would it be a case of diverting those services in and out of Llandudno (adding a good half hour to the duration of services from Chester to Bangor etc)? Or finding a unit to do a shuttle to/from the Junction? Or something more ambitious? Llandudno - Chester couldn't sensibly be run as a bi-hourly service with one unit, so I guess that's out of the window?

(as I say, I'm not against the idea of a year-round Sunday service, I'm just not sure what the obvious/ easiest/ most cost-effective way of providing it would be)

But the signalboxes would still have to open so back to finance again. ATW would not take the initiative as they do exactly what the Franchise specifies, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Carlisle]

Its due to the cost of having two signal boxes open for longer.

How significant is that?, given the recent start of northern’s Sunday services south of Whitehaven must have required around 10 boxes to be manned that were previously closed that day .

 

[ChiefPlanner]

But the signalboxes would still have to open so back to finance again. ATW would not take the initiative as they do exactly what the Franchise specifies, nothing more, nothing less.

That is the past , - they could have suggested ways to add value to the franchise (and maybe got some modest credit) , and suggested some simple enough enhancements ,thus proving they had an interest in what they were in charge of , not slavishly following the contract. ......I am sure that some subsidy would be needed in this scenario , but the SRA were minded to fund things like this until the money was turned off to help the RT /NR meltdown , so the WG could have assisted......

In the big picture , not huge sums of money .....

 

[ChiefPlanner]

How significant is that?, given the recent start of northern’s Sunday services south of Whitehaven must have required around 10 boxes to be manned that were previously closed that day .

At a guess - about £200 a Sunday. Peanuts.

 

[dk1]

How significant is that?, given the recent start of northern’s Sunday services south of Whitehaven must have required around 10 boxes to be manned that were previously closed that day .

Not sure how the contract goes with NR but if the resident signallers where not contracted to work winter Sundays then that would have to be negotiated too.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Given the relatively thin (hourly?) Sunday service on the NWC as a whole, compared to the 2tph or better midweek and Saturdays, presumably there is low takeup of Sunday working for traincrew as the need isn’t there. The question being - assuming funding for the signalbox opening hours could be secured, would the franchise be able to guarantee sufficient traincrew availability? I’m assuming there is a traincrew depot at Llandudno Junction, presumably to be supported by Chester.

 

[tbtc]

But the signalboxes would still have to open so back to finance again. ATW would not take the initiative as they do exactly what the Franchise specifies, nothing more, nothing less.

Sure (and I don't blame ATW for not taking on additional responsibilities, given how heavily subsidised the franchise is - the subsidy per passenger mile means it'd be cheaper to put most passengers in taxis - I'm not suggesting that winter trips to Llandudno would be profitable or that you'd expect any private company to fund them out of the goodness of their own hearts).

I'm just wondering (even if we assume that Arriva were prepared to run a service and pay for signalling staff, and had spare DMUs not needing routine maintenance and enough staff willing to do overtime etc etc) what service there'd actually be to Llandudno. It's not like there's anything terminating at the Junction (with a 45+ minute layover) that would be an obvious service to extend into Llandudno during the winter - I can't remember what the summer timetable is like - whilst I'm in favour of a Sunday service into the town, there's a difference between "it should have trains on a Sunday" and "what is the practical/ useful level of service required?".

Would it be *instead of* some Holyhead services?

An hourly shuttle from the Junction into Llandudno seems a bit of a waste of a DMU (it'd spend more time resting than in service), but half hourly looks a bit too tight (not enough recovery time).

Diverting the current services from Holyhead to Civilisation into Llandudno and back out again would inconvenience longer distance passengers.

(as an aside, as a non-railway person, I think it'd seem weird to most members of the public that the line from Llandudno Junction into Llandudno can't be covered by a different signal box on a Sunday, given that there's only about one train per hour in the whole of north Wales, but I accept that the railway doesn't operate as efficiently as that - the fact we'd need to open a whole separate box is just How Things Are... however frustrating that may be!)

 

[Chester1]

Sure (and I don't blame ATW for not taking on additional responsibilities, given how heavily subsidised the franchise is - the subsidy per passenger mile means it'd be cheaper to put most passengers in taxis - I'm not suggesting that winter trips to Llandudno would be profitable or that you'd expect any private company to fund them out of the goodness of their own hearts).

I'm just wondering (even if we assume that Arriva were prepared to run a service and pay for signalling staff, and had spare DMUs not needing routine maintenance and enough staff willing to do overtime etc etc) what service there'd actually be to Llandudno. It's not like there's anything terminating at the Junction (with a 45+ minute layover) that would be an obvious service to extend into Llandudno during the winter - I can't remember what the summer timetable is like - whilst I'm in favour of a Sunday service into the town, there's a difference between "it should have trains on a Sunday" and "what is the practical/ useful level of service required?".

Would it be *instead of* some Holyhead services?

An hourly shuttle from the Junction into Llandudno seems a bit of a waste of a DMU (it'd spend more time resting than in service), but half hourly looks a bit too tight (not enough recovery time).

Diverting the current services from Holyhead to Civilisation into Llandudno and back out again would inconvenience longer distance passengers.

(as an aside, as a non-railway person, I think it'd seem weird to most members of the public that the line from Llandudno Junction into Llandudno can't be covered by a different signal box on a Sunday, given that there's only about one train per hour in the whole of north Wales, but I accept that the railway doesn't operate as efficiently as that - the fact we'd need to open a whole separate box is just How Things Are... however frustrating that may be!)

It would probably be splitting and joining with Holyhead services at Llandudno Junction. An hourly service of double 158s between Crewe and Llandudno Junction then single 158s to Holyhead and Llandudno is about the right level of capacity for off season Sundays.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

It would probably be splitting and joining with Holyhead services at Llandudno Junction. An hourly service of double 158s between Crewe and Llandudno Junction then single 158s to Holyhead and Llandudno is about the right level of capacity for off season Sundays.

That sounds like a reasonable option - or even a 175 or similar. Quite efficient in terms of units and crews.

Maybe someone in authority can pick this up !

 

[Kite159]

At first you could probably get away with just a 150 on a shuttle service between Junction & Llandundo, timetabled to connect with the services to/from Holyhead.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

At first you could probably get away with just a 150 on a shuttle service between Junction & Llandundo, timetabled to connect with the services to/from Holyhead.

You certainly could - but not very efficient - the idea of coupling onto a service from further west has some merit , in giving (a) Ludo to other places on a one seat journey (b) extra capacity on the route towards Chester and Crewe.

Quite smart thinking TBTC ! (DA IAWN)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Sure (and I don't blame ATW for not taking on additional responsibilities, given how heavily subsidised the franchise is - the subsidy per passenger mile means it'd be cheaper to put most passengers in taxis - I'm not suggesting that winter trips to Llandudno would be profitable or that you'd expect any private company to fund them out of the goodness of their own hearts).

I'm just wondering (even if we assume that Arriva were prepared to run a service and pay for signalling staff, and had spare DMUs not needing routine maintenance and enough staff willing to do overtime etc etc) what service there'd actually be to Llandudno. It's not like there's anything terminating at the Junction (with a 45+ minute layover) that would be an obvious service to extend into Llandudno during the winter - I can't remember what the summer timetable is like - whilst I'm in favour of a Sunday service into the town, there's a difference between "it should have trains on a Sunday" and "what is the practical/ useful level of service required?".

Would it be *instead of* some Holyhead services?

An hourly shuttle from the Junction into Llandudno seems a bit of a waste of a DMU (it'd spend more time resting than in service), but half hourly looks a bit too tight (not enough recovery time).

Diverting the current services from Holyhead to Civilisation into Llandudno and back out again would inconvenience longer distance passengers.

(as an aside, as a non-railway person, I think it'd seem weird to most members of the public that the line from Llandudno Junction into Llandudno can't be covered by a different signal box on a Sunday, given that there's only about one train per hour in the whole of north Wales, but I accept that the railway doesn't operate as efficiently as that - the fact we'd need to open a whole separate box is just How Things Are... however frustrating that may be!)

Can Deganwy not be "switched out" (is there not a "block switch") - if not , how much - and in any case , and I am sure I have mentioned this before , rather than rely on overtime on NR -you just recruit another post and rebalance the rosters....hard not to justify another reasonable job on the railway....!

Simple , incremental things , - not like (say) the Digital Railway !!!!! (Which has merits am sure , but let us do simple things as well)

 

[Llanigraham]

Can Deganwy not be "switched out" (is there not a "block switch") - if not , how much - and in any case , and I am sure I have mentioned this before , rather than rely on overtime on NR -you just recruit another post and rebalance the rosters....hard not to justify another reasonable job on the railway....!

Simple , incremental things , - not like (say) the Digital Railway !!!!! (Which has merits am sure , but let us do simple things as well)

Deganwy Box seems to control 2 level crossings, so unless they are automated, or control moved to somewhere else, which would be very expensive, then no it can't be "switched out".
Sundays are not in a signaller's contract, they are worked as overtime, so they make no difference to the roster.

 

[PHILIPE]

You certainly could - but not very efficient - the idea of coupling onto a service from further west has some merit , in giving (a) Ludo to other places on a one seat journey (b) extra capacity on the route towards Chester and Crewe.

Quite smart thinking TBTC ! (DA IAWN)

It runs as a shuttle during the Summer when there is a service. This 175 worked and which has stabled the Junction overnight off the 1934 ex Cardiff. During the Winter it attaches to the 0845 Holyhead to Crewe at the Junction.

 

[philthetube]

This might be one place where to run a connecting replacement bus, with through ticketing might make sense.

 

[krus_aragon]

This might be one place where to run a connecting replacement bus, with through ticketing might make sense.

Perhaps in conjunction with the Conwy Valley, which also sees no winter Sunday services?

In the longer term, within a few years we'll have 3tph down the coast on weekdays with the new Civitys, and the current winter Sunday service will offer an even starker contrast.

Llandudno has a year-round holiday trade these days, and there are large numbers of coaches bringing people for Christmas/New Year breaks.

 

[dk1]

There have been other lines that never opened on Sundays where this has been reversed. Part of the NX bid to win the Anglia franchise back in 2004 involved through Intercity running to/from Great Yarmouth on weekdays. This expensive waste of time involved dragging a set down to start the 07:10 ex-Norwich there at 06:22 & running the 17:00 from Liverpool St through after a 20min wait at Norwich again returning ECS to Crown Point.

After a year or so it was re-negotiated to withdraw this & instead introduce a year round Sunday service via Acle therefore doubling the Winter frequency to Yarmouth. It involved manning Acle box & the two level crossings in Lingwood.

 

[DarloRich]

Well winter is here

Every day seems like inter in llandudno!

That is mad, I can't believe this is even a thing

What cant you believe?

At the risk of re opening a whole can of worms (again) I find the Sunday services on many routes outside of London bizarre

Well my line, 47 miles form London, doesn't have a Sunday service so one not serving a Welsh coastal outpost off the main line hardly surprises me!

 

[lyndhurst25]

This might be one place where to run a connecting replacement bus, with through ticketing might make sense.

There's already an hourly Sunday bus service between Llandudno Junction and Llandudno, run by Arriva, the same company that are currently running the trains in Wales. You'd have thought that it wouldn't have taken much organisation for the trains division to arrange acceptance of tickets to/from Llandudno by the bus division on Sundays. But why bother if no one is going to make you? Think of all that money to be made from selling bus tickets. This country is rubbish at integrated transport - too many vested interests.