Winston Green Chord

[Waverley125]

As a thought, is there a business case for building a chord between the Perry Barr-Smethwick Rolfe Street line and the Snow Hill - Stourbridge line at Winston Green?

This would

a) allow North West - South Coast XC services to be diverted via Moor Street & Snow Hill, reducing congestion at New Street

b) allow the Snow Hill lines to be used as a proper 'Birmingham Crossrail' with stopping services from Leamington Spa & Stratford on Avon running through to Kidderminster and Wolverhampton

c) allow direct running for Marylebone - North Wales / Shropshire services while calling in Birmingham City Centre and avoiding New Street.

d) move more local & regional services to Moor Street, for direct interchange with HS2 at Curzon Street.

 

[The Planner]

Probably not, as you wouldn't be able to squeeze enough trains in between Wolves and Soho North to justify it as it is pretty much full up now. Soho North is incredibly restrictive due to the curve which is 10mph. Getting trains across there now isn't the easiest of tasks. Fixing that would probably require demolishing and re-building the viaduct on a shallower curve or singling the chord, which defeats the object. You then have to deal with egress from Soho depot for LM as the crossover for that is right next to the junction.

Moving XC services that way would make connections worse as you would need to trek from Moor St back to New St.

 

[Waverley125]

yeah, was thinking that. Makes the decision to close Snow Hill - Wolverhampton look incredibly short sighted now, given the MM takes up a line that would be incredibly useful for inter-regional services.

 

[HowardGWR]

Probably not, as you wouldn't be able to squeeze enough trains in between Wolves and Soho North to justify it as it is pretty much full up now. Soho North is incredibly restrictive due to the curve which is 10mph. Getting trains across there now isn't the easiest of tasks. Fixing that would probably require demolishing and re-building the viaduct on a shallower curve or singling the chord, which defeats the object. You then have to deal with egress from Soho depot for LM as the crossover for that is right next to the junction.

Moving XC services that way would make connections worse as you would need to trek from Moor St back to New St.

Could you give the nearest location to 'Soho North' please as I can't see any curve that would be 10 mph on Google maps?.

You last sentence - Interesting that HS2 pax are expected to trek from Curzon St to Moor St and New St though.

 

[Eagle]

You last sentence - Interesting that HS2 pax are expected to trek from Curzon St to Moor St and New St though.

Or they could change at Birmingham International.

Plus there are going to be services from Birmingham Curzon Street to the north via HS2.

 

[HowardGWR]

Or they could change at Birmingham International.

Plus there are going to be services from Birmingham Curzon Street to the north via HS2.

I don't think you are suggesting that someone arriving at Curzon St from the north and wanting to change for (say) Redditch should get on a London HS2 that is stopping at the airport so that he can get one back to New St?

No seriously, I do hope that a travelator or some such system is arranged for the transfer of pax between the three stations.

The OP's idea about connecting at Winson Green (note spelling) seems interesting, so I hope The Planner will not mind replying on this Soho North business.

 

[The Planner]

Search for Vittoria St in Smethwick, it sits in the Soho triangle. Soho North Jn is the one to the left by the canal bridge.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

yeah, was thinking that. Makes the decision to close Snow Hill - Wolverhampton look incredibly short sighted now, given the MM takes up a line that would be incredibly useful for inter-regional services.

Again, this was 41 years ago when it closed, hindsight is fab.

 

[Geezertronic]

As a thought, is there a business case for building a chord between the Perry Barr-Smethwick Rolfe Street line and the Snow Hill - Stourbridge line at Winston Green?

Probably a better case than Delbert Lane or Errol Brown

(Lenny Henry references since we're talking about Birmingham)

 

[Eagle]

You could say that it makes the decision to reopen the line as light rail only shortsighted (which was only approved 24 years ago :P).

 

[Gwenllian2001]

Where is Winston Green?

 

[Geezertronic]

Where is Winston Green?

The OP means Winson Green

 

[the sniper]

You could say that it makes the decision to reopen the line as light rail only shortsighted (which was only approved 24 years ago :P).

With the benefit of hindsight, I'd argue that the opening of the Midland Metro was a bigger mistake than the closing of the original mainline! Had it reopened now as a mainline railway instead, pressure could have been taken off the packed New Street - Wolves corridor by at least diverting the Shrewsbury services, both ATW and LM's, to go via Wolves Lower Level (which was virtually untouched from closure until it was turned into a hotel a couple of years ago) to Snow Hill. The New Street - Wolves HL corridor timetable could have been made more realistically workable (WVH - BHM stoppers that actually run somewhere near to the timetable!), maybe an extra stopping train could have been introduced? Though I don't imagine XC or VWC would move away from New Street, they could have used Snow Hill as a diversionary route.

There'd be downsides, a less frequent service compared to the Metro, less stations and the Wolverhampton end kicking out passengers at an awkwardly placed station further away from the city centre than the High Level station, rather than the street running solution of present. But then, the Metro has hardly been a roaring success so maybe a few less stations and through journey possibilities would be a better thing.

 

[The Planner]

So i take it you would have the Chiltern Snow Hill terminators pushed back to Moor St and getting rid of the connection to the airport from Wales? I am not convinced you could get a lot more terminating services in Snow Hill even with the fourth platform.

 

[martinsh]

There'd be downsides, ... the Wolverhampton end kicking out passengers at an awkwardly placed station further away from the city centre than the High Level station

Yes, but significantly closer to the Great Western pub !:roll:

 

[Marvin]

Probably not, as you wouldn't be able to squeeze enough trains in between Wolves and Soho North to justify it as it is pretty much full up now.

Unless you put the chord in the other way, and ran services from Snow Hill to Wolves via Bescot.

 

[The Planner]

Still doesn't solve getting them in and out of Wolves though, the trains are still there at Crane St Jn.

 

[the sniper]

So i take it you would have the Chiltern Snow Hill terminators pushed back to Moor St and getting rid of the connection to the airport from Wales? I am not convinced you could get a lot more terminating services in Snow Hill even with the fourth platform.

Yes. Surely beyond the PR view of it forming a link between Birmingham Airport and Wales, the only reason the ATW services continue to BHI is to get them in and out of New Street quickly and to give the service half a chance of actually reaching Birmingham, rather then turning back at WVH which was almost the norm a few years ago!

 

[The Planner]

It is more the fact you cannot dump them at New St for the length of time a turnround would need to be, but I suspect our Welsh contingent will have something to say if you take it away from them!

 

[joeykins82]

I'm sure Chiltern wouldn't object to being able to run services through from Moor St to Wolverhampton and probably on to Telford and Shrewsbury at least; I know that part of the reason for the failure of the Wrexham & Shropshire service was because it was prevented from accessing the London-Birmingham passenger flows, presumably via Moor St would address that as well as keeping all of their services running through the same Birmingham stations and enabling the services to run as an extension of existing scheduled trains

 

[Geezertronic]

I know that part of the reason for the failure of the Wrexham & Shropshire service was because it was prevented from accessing the London-Birmingham passenger flows, presumably via Moor St would address that as well as keeping all of their services running through the same Birmingham stations and enabling the services to run as an extension of existing scheduled trains

I believe that was only because of Moderation of Competition which has long since expired

 

[joeykins82]

Indeed, but Chiltern are a Moor Street operation: if there was a way they could get from Moor Street and on to Wolverhampton and beyond it'd prove tempting, whereas the only option to get to Shrewsbury is via New Street which undoubtedly doesn't hold the same appeal.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

I think the issue with this idea is getting the paths through Snow Hill tunnel. There is already strong political support for an new inner urban service through Snow Hill. With a new turnback facility created at Rowley Regis and platform four at Snow Hill reclaimed for heavy rail when the Midland Metro moves out in a couple of years.

 

[mister-sparky]

Out of interest, how many platforms did the original Snow Hill have before closure?

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Out of interest, how many platforms did the original Snow Hill have before closure?

Have a look at this

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/birminghamsnowhill.htm

 

[Waverley125]

Could definitely terminate Chiltern Marylebone services at Moor Street. There's space for a (narrow) sixth platform on the West side of the station, and using the (then) full four terminating platforms there's easily be space for Chiltern to run an intensive service down to London as well as having regular services through to Snow Hill & beyond on the Leam / Stratford - Kidderminster / Wolverhampton flows.

As for catering for N. Wales - Birmingham Airport, surely the best way would to (once wires have been extended there, surely a logical move) extend the Euston - Wolverhampton services through to terminate at Shrewsbury, calling at Telford and Wellington.

 

[the sniper]

Out of interest, how many platforms did the original Snow Hill have before closure?

Four long through platforms, four bay platforms at the north end.

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1167.htm

 

[The Planner]

As for catering for N. Wales - Birmingham Airport, surely the best way would to (once wires have been extended there, surely a logical move) extend the Euston - Wolverhampton services through to terminate at Shrewsbury, calling at Telford and Wellington.

Would you bin off the ATW service or keep it to Snow Hill?

 

[joeykins82]

If memory serves NR's Electrification RUS recommended that post-electrification of Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury the ATW service would be cut back to Shrewsbury and the VT Wolverhampton services extended accordingly. Makes perfect sense really.

 

[Eagle]

Of course, the Wolverhampton services are about to be extended elsewhere, so it'd have to be a Birmingham service you'd extend.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

There is a lot of pressure to keep the Chiltern services running into Snow Hill, especially during the peaks. I'm sure those of you how know the city of Birmingham will realise just how much office space is centred on Snow Hill station.

The council have invested heavily in the area as a business district over the past decade and continue to build offices there. Having a decent service to Warwick/Leamington/London is probably a key part of their plan and I know from personal experience just how valuable that link is to a hell of a lot of commuters. Any plans to sacrifice their services just to make things more operationally convenient will get met with a lot of resistance. Chiltern strengthened the Snow Hill service this year after reducing it slightly post Evergreen 3.