Window Hanging

[shredder1]

They have bars in zoo`s, says it all I guess :roll:

 

[NSEFAN]

They have bars in zoo`s, says it all I guess :roll:

Now steady on. Comparing bashers to animals in a zoo is quite derogatory! Most monkeys are well behaved, it's only the minority that like to flail.

 

[43096]

Yes, there is a certain amount of "personal responsibility" involved here, and if you are daft enough to lean out too far and get hit by a bit of trackside kit it is largely your own fault. The problem is that someone else has to clean up the mess.

Investigations have to take place, and even on preserved railways where speeds are low, the situation could arise where bars are required on all windows to prevent other idiots doing the same thing in future. How much is this going to cost in the long run?

Am I completely alone in being baffled by this "window flailing" concept?

I get people wanting to be at the window to hear the loco.

What I can't comprehend is the leaning far out, noise making and abusing people on stations that goes on from some of the imbecile mongtards you get. There are already restrictions on being in vestibules on some charters because of this.

 

[43096]

Having volunteered at some preserved heritage railways in the past before a bereavement a few years ago. I have insight into the railway industry and some of my family have worked on the railway over the years.

So what? Same could be said of the bloke who was killed leaning out of a 442.

In regards to putting bars on the door windows. I think a better option would be perhaps to install internal door handles and limit the movement of the windows on the opening doors to 50/50. That way, the integrity of the rolling stock will still be intact and perhaps made safer without looking like a prison train .

You haven't thought that through. There is a reason why there are no internal door handles.

 

[Cowley]

I get people wanting to be at the window to hear the loco.

What I can comprehend is the leaning far out, noise making and abusing people on stations that goes on from some of the imbecile mongtards you get. There are already restrictions on being in vestibules on some charters because of this.

Couldn't agree more. The few have at times messed things up for many. If I see it going on at a railway nowadays I occasionally have a word with them. I didn't pay twenty plus quid at a gala to watch someone being a gibbon out of a window.
This is not 1988, in fact the people doing it probably weren't even born then.

 

[QueensCurve]

I was waiting for the next service to London Liverpool Street at platform 9 and was pleasantly astonished when we were permitted to board the Class 90 + MK3 set (which was advertised on the boards!!). This was the first time I had travelled on a train with opening windows, so I would have been able to have practically a "drivers eye view" from Stratford into Liverpool Street (I didn't personally partake in this, but there were a few passengers who seemed to grasp this opportunity). My question is - is this actually permitted onboard trains or is it strictly not allowed (They were not stopped by anyone) and do staff actively try to prevent people from doing this?

PS - Have AGA got rid of the set down/pick up only rule at Stratford for Class 90/MK3 express trains?

There is a difference between hanging out of the window and partially extruding the head for a quick peak.

Always look out on the side of the cess, ease out gradually looking in the direction of travel and be ready to come back in if an obstacle approaches. Safety spectacles advised.

There was one fatality in the last year but these are rare.

 

[BMIFlyer]

I never wear a hat when window hanging on a train as a flying hat could be a hazard to other trains .

To be honest. I think the last time I flailed on a train on the mainline was back in 2007/8 when Class 37's was still being used in Wales.

In regards to how far people lean out and I have seen those that lean a bit too far out from what I would call the 3 inch "safe" boundary.

1) Your head detaching from your body when you hit a lineside piece of equipment is more of a hazard don't you think? :roll:

2) Flailing is moronic and stupidity at its highest order - if I ever see anyone doing it while I'm travelling on a charter/MK2/3 then BTP will be informed.

3) There is no safe distance hanging out of stock. Even train crew only just poke heads out to see what's going on and that's usually in station departures where the stock allows it…

I've written enough.

 

[306024]

There is a difference between hanging out of the window and partially extruding the head for a quick peak.

Always look out on the side of the cess, ease out gradually looking in the direction of travel and be ready to come back in if an obstacle approaches. Safety spectacles advised.

There was one fatality in the last year but these are rare.

This thread goes from stupid to irresponsible. Now advice is being given on how to lean out of the window!

Time to relate my story of someone who thought it was OK to just 'peek' out if an open window on a preserved railway I happened to be travelling on. Lineside vegitation that hadn't been cut back drew blood, requiring medical attention. A couple of inches higher and their eyesight may have been in danger instead.

But of course vegetation doesn't grow on the cess side does it :roll:

 

[Darandio]

Some of you obviously didn't get the memo entitled 'Enthusiasts Know Best'.

A couple of years ago I had to write some training material for what was then a new TOC. The material was concentrated on procedures and eventualities for dealing with fatalities from PTI etc. However, because the TOC also shares tracks with a fleet of trains that have droplight windows, an element of the material concentrated on possible incidents from people hanging from droplights, and the limited potential for 'interaction' with a passing train.

It was bad enough just to have to think about and write this stuff down, never mind what the poor buggers have to go through that actually deal with this stuff for real. It beggars belief that some people are talking about 'safe' distances and knowing best.

 

[bramling]

Some of you obviously didn't get the memo entitled 'Enthusiasts Know Best'.

A couple of years ago I had to write some training material for what was then a new TOC. The material was concentrated on procedures and eventualities for dealing with fatalities from PTI etc. However, because the TOC also shares tracks with a fleet of trains that have droplight windows, an element of the material concentrated on possible incidents from people hanging from droplights, and the limited potential for 'interaction' with a passing train.

It was bad enough just to have to think about and write this stuff down, never mind what the poor buggers have to go through that actually deal with this stuff for real. It beggars belief that some people are talking about 'safe' distances and knowing best.

Reality is people do carry out activities which are hazardous - same could be said for lots of activities. Leaning out of a window is certainly hazardous, but in my view the level of risk is a little overstated.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

You haven't thought that through. There is a reason why there are no internal door handles.

I think I was reading on one of these threads recently that initially there were internal door handles but were taken out when there was no central door locking on the HSTs and they haven't been bothered to put it back in.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Couldn't agree more. The few have at times messed things up for many. If I see it going on at a railway nowadays I occasionally have a word with them. I didn't pay twenty plus quid at a gala to watch someone being a gibbon out of a window.

I remember I was standing next to a window/door on the HST and some person just came, pretty much barged me out of the way and said rudely 'I am feeling sick, let me stand next to the window.' Throughout the entire journey through to Slough he had his head/neck/shoulders completely out of the window- Was really tempted to say something to him like 'if you are really feeling sick, find the Train Manager at the back of the train' but I guess no-one takes me seriously because I'm quite young

 

[Cowley]

I remember I was standing next to a window/door on the HST and some person just came, pretty much barged me out of the way and said rudely 'I am feeling sick, let me stand next to the window.' Throughout the entire journey through to Slough he had his head/neck/shoulders completely out of the window- Was really tempted to say something to him like 'if you are really feeling sick, find the Train Manager at the back of the train' but I guess no-one takes me seriously because I'm quite young

Oh dear. You certainly wouldn't want to have been window hanging down wind of him.
On the subject of vegetation, I was on a train to Totnes recently and the lineside growth was brushing the side of the train. That would definitely hurt if it whacked you at sixty miles an hour.

 

[najaB]

I think I was reading on one of these threads recently that initially there were internal door handles but were taken out when there was no central door locking on the HSTs and they haven't been bothered to put it back in.

That's not quite the story as I've heard it.

As I understand it, the issue is that the CDL system only has a single pin at the top and doesn't stop the handle from being turned. With the handle outside you have to lean out the window at an awkward angle to open the door so: (a) it's unlikely to happen by accident; and (b) you can't put put much force into pushing the door open.

With a handle on the inside it's possible to turn it accidentally (e.g. bag strap gets caught) and it's also easy for someone to lean on the door while doing so.

 

[47802]

Reality is people do carry out activities which are hazardous - same could be said for lots of activities. Leaning out of a window is certainly hazardous, but in my view the level of risk is a little overstated.

Indeed I did it for years from being a kid until the last few years now 55, but now of course you get the window police on charters these days so I don't go on them anymore, and of course the number of Service Trains with droplights is somewhat limited these days anyway and rapidly decreasing. Yes I did lean out quite a bit sometimes with my Camera but I knew the risk was always very careful always on the lookout for obstructions and vegetation etc. and only did it at low speed and somehow I managed to survive without loosing my head.

Yes there are some idiots who lean out too far especially at speed, shout and frail etc. who have spoilt it for the majority.

Out of interest how many serious incidents have there been with enthusiasts leaning out? Obviously there was the 442 incident, and I believe there was a similar incident many years ago on a North Wales Steam special at Conway.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

That's not quite the story as I've heard it.

As I understand it, the issue is that the CDL system only has a single pin at the top and doesn't stop the handle from being turned. With the handle outside you have to lean out the window at an awkward angle to open the door so: (a) it's unlikely to happen by accident; and (b) you can't put put much force into pushing the door open.

With a handle on the inside it's possible to turn it accidentally (e.g. bag strap gets caught) and it's also easy for someone to lean on the door while doing so.

Ok thanks for correcting me

 

[PudseyBearHST]

I'm sure that this topic has been exhausted in other threads so I won't start a new thread but... Is the reason why some of the MK3 coaches are being/ going to be converted to automatic doors because of safety reasons such as people sticking heads out of windows when they shouldn't be?

 

[Darandio]

I'm sure that this topic has been exhausted in other threads so I won't start a new thread but... Is the reason why some of the MK3 coaches are being/ going to be converted to automatic doors because of safety reasons such as people sticking heads out of windows when they shouldn't be?

Nothing to do with people sticking heads out, it's all about making them compliant for the 2020 accessibility deadline.

 

[PudseyBearHST]

Nothing to do with people sticking heads out, it's all about making them compliant for the 2020 accessibility deadline.

Oh ok thanks

 

[221129]

Nothing to do with people sticking heads out, it's all about making them compliant for the 2020 accessibility deadline.

Indeed, removing the droplights is just a pleasant bonus!

 

[47802]

Indeed, removing the droplights is just a pleasant bonus!

Or unpleasant depending on your viewpoint.

I believe an internal door handle option is possible if the CDL is modified but its not that cheap.

 

[najaB]

I believe an internal door handle option is possible if the CDL is modified but its not that cheap.

My understanding is that the current door, even with an internal handle, isn't quite wide enough to comply with the PRM legislation.

 

[Mag_seven]

What window hangers forget is that depending on what way the wind is blowing and how fast the train is going can result in a rather unpleasant substance from the trains WC's being sprayed in your face!

 

[CosherB]

Not even worth a reply.

The fact that you have written that response is, by definition, a reply and therefore you have immediately contradicted yourself?

 

[BR60062]

1) Your head detaching from your body when you hit a lineside piece of equipment is more of a hazard don't you think? :roll:

2) Flailing is moronic and stupidity at its highest order - if I ever see anyone doing it while I'm travelling on a charter/MK2/3 then BTP will be informed.

3) There is no safe distance hanging out of stock. Even train crew only just poke heads out to see what's going on and that's usually in station departures where the stock allows it…

I've written enough.

In response to point 1. Yes that is what "can" happen if someone leans right out of the window of a moving train! I have never leaned that far out and I am not that daft . I was always careful and if necessary, I pulled back into the safety of the coach when lineside objects were coming up (I am a safe railfan as I have never leaned right out of the window unlike some I have seen at diesel galas and railtours! ).

I have not and do not shout at the top of my voice when a locomotive revs up (I still fail to see the point of that logic even now :?). I have smiled to myself whilst the "locomotive sings" as it is a nice sound from my favourite locomotive.

In response to point 2, I don't agree with mainline flailing at all these days and perhaps what I have "failed" to mention is that when I am at any diesel galas. I just film out of the window these days and I never stuck my head "further" out than necessary than to just have a look at the line ahead when its clear and safe to do so. Also lineside items have to be at a particular distance away from the track otherwise it "could" strike the train itself!

....if I ever see anyone doing it while I'm travelling on a charter/MK2/3 then BTP will be informed.

Good man! I would do the exact same thing in that situation when it comes to mainline operations as those trains run much faster .

 

[bramling]

if I ever see anyone doing it while I'm travelling on a charter/MK2/3 then BTP will be informed.

I really can't see BTP being particularly interested. It can be difficult enough getting them to things which are "service affecting", which flailing generally isn't.

 

[bb21]

The fact that you have written that response is, by definition, a reply and therefore you have immediately contradicted yourself?

Can we stop with the bitching please.

Take it elsewhere off the forum.

 

[DarloRich]

We have all done it - it is fairly stupid.

Not recommended on the mainline unless you know what you are doing. On the HST's in the past. A couple of times I have rested my camera on the sill of the window in the open position. But I have never been stupid enough to stick my head out and risk losing my life.

good job there is an expert like you around then isnt it? :roll:

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I think I was reading on one of these threads recently that initially there were internal door handles but were taken out when there was no central door locking on the HSTs and they haven't been bothered to put it back in.

From memory of the 1970s, the HSTs and perhaps the Mk2s before that were built without internal door handles. For whatever reason the internal handles on Mk1 and similar stock could be difficult to operate. As a consequence, the "experts", otherwise known as the commuters, would drop the window, put a hand outside and use the external handle.

It was never really solved as to why HSTs had so many accidents from people falling out of the train. That was a motivation behind central locking. I suppose it also stopped commuters leaving the train while it was still at walking pace. That was quite common on slam door stock with a door to every bay.

 

[Mainline421]

No, it's not allowed (and can be quite dangerous), and there is clear signage saying so. You'll get a tap on the shoulder if a member of staff sees you doing it, though obviously they won't necessarily see it.

Nonsense, I have had my ticket inspected whilst leaning out windows many times and have never been told not to, countless station staff and others must have seen me as well. The only time I have ever been told not to out of a window was on a railtour recently, even then the DB staff were fine with it, just not the promoter.

I have also heard announcements cautioning passengers not to lean out of windows.. "until the train has passed" and even once had a window opened with a t-key. Also worth noting that Network Rail actually makes an effort to maintain a wider clearance on routes where stock with droplights are regularly used. It's perfectly safe if done properly, I do not lean out far and keep my head close to the train. Officially it's forbidden but everyone from the top to the bottom of the companies concerned is fully aware of it and unofficially permits it to occur. It's not just enthusiasts that do it either.